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  1. #1
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
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    Why I feel soy is a good part of a bb diet

    I know soy isnt a prefered component of any meal on the boards but I just want to give out some facts that might change some minds.
    Its not optimal to use when trying to lose fat because of the high carb and fat content that is for sure but it does have some other properties that makes it interesting especialy for those of us that juices.

    1. Its DIRT cheap. Even the ecologicaly grown soybeans is very cheap. You can buy 5grams of soyprotein for the cost of 1gram of meat protein(atleast in sweden and then I dont mean the leanest cuts of meats that are far more expensive).

    2. All fat in it is almost exclusivly good fats((80% polyunsaturated fats mostly omega 9).

    3. The carbs are SUPER low gi(25, brown rice has a gi over 65 and that is considered slow then imagine how damn slow soy carbs are). This in my oppinion makes it a ideal carb choise when bulking.

    4. The protein has a complete aminoacid profile. Sure its not as good as meat but throw in some eggs or a small shake with the meal and you get all you need.

    5. It has numerous health benifits including lowering total and bad cholesterol and its proven to prevent many kinds of cancer. Below Im gonna post a few studies and quotes that shows just how damn good it is
    Last edited by Kärnfysikern; 05-15-2005 at 02:41 PM.

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    cancer protection.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15798082

    Soy protein isolate and protection against cancer.

    Badger TM, Ronis MJ, Simmen RC, Simmen FA.

    Arkansas Children's Nutrition Center and Department of Physiology/Biophysics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Little Rock, AR 72202, USA. badgerthomasm@uams.edu

    OBJECTIVE: Results from epidemiological and animal studies suggest that consuming soy-containing diets reduces the incidence of certain cancers. The purpose of this presentation was to evaluate the potential of soy protein to prevent occurrence of prostate, breast and colon cancer. METHODS: Meta-analyses of published epidemiologic studies associating cancer risk with soy intake were performed. The incidence of chemically-induced mammary or colon tumors was determined for rats fed AIN-93G diets made with either casein or soy protein isolate (SPI). Western and Northern blot and microarray analyses were performed on rat mammary and colon tissues to study mechanisms underlying the effects of soy. RESULTS: Meta-analyses revealed reductions in the mean overall risk estimate for mammary (0.78, p < 0.001), colon (0.70, p < 0.001) and prostate (0.66, p < 0.001) cancer for soy consumers. The incidence of AOM-induced colon tumors and DMBA-induced mammary tumors was reduced (p < 0.05) in rats fed SPI-containing diets. Lower incidence of mammary tumors in SPI-fed rats was associated with: 1) reduced terminal end bud numbers (p < 0.05), 2) lower expression of the phase I enzyme CYP1B1 (p < 0.05) and 3) reduced expression of the Ah Receptor and ARNT (p < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: SPI may protect against cancer via multiple mechanisms, including: 1) increased mammary gland differentiation, 2) decreased activation of procarcinogens to carcinogens and 3) regulation of genes in signal transduction pathways underlying tumor initiation, promotion and/or progression.

    PMID: 15798082 [PubMed - in process]
    More
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15702593

    Health effects of phytoestrogens.

    Branca F, Lorenzetti S.

    National Institute for Research on Food and Nutrition, Rome, Italy. f.branca@agora.it

    Phytoestrogens are naturally occurring plant-derived phytochemicals, whose common biological roles are to protect plants from stress or to act as part of a plant's defense mechanism. Although composed of a wide group of nonsteroidal compounds of diverse structure, phytoestrogens have been shown to bind estrogen receptors and to behave as weak agonist/antagonist in both animals and humans. Phytoestrogens include mainly isoflavones (IF), coumestans, and lignans. These compounds are known to be present in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains commonly consumed by humans. IF are found in legumes--mainly soybeans--whereas flaxseed is a major source of lignans, and coumestans are significantly present in clover, alfalfa and soybean sprouts. 8-Prenyl flavonoids are common in vegetables. Bioavailability of IF requires an initial hydrolysis of the sugar moiety by intestinal beta-glucosidases to allow the following uptake by enterocytes and the flow through the peripheral circulation. Following absorption, IF are then reconjugated mainly to glucuronic acid and to a lesser degree to sulphuric acid. Gut metabolism seems key to the determination of the potency of action. Several epidemiological studies correlated high dose consumptions of soy IF with multiple beneficial effects on breast and prostate cancers, menopausal symptoms, osteoporosis, atherosclerosis and stroke, and neurodegeneration. For the relief of menopausal symptoms a consumption of 60 mg aglycones/day has been suggested; for cancer prevention a consumption between 50 and 110 mg aglycones/day is considered beneficial to reduce risks of breast, colon and prostate cancer; to decrease cardiovascular risk a minimum intake of 40-60 mg aglycones/day, together with about 25 g of soy protein has been suggested. For improvement in bone mineral density, 60-100 mg aglycones/day for a period of at least 6-12 months could be beneficial.

    PMID: 15702593 [PubMed - in process]
    In 1997, the American Institute for Cancer Research, in collaboration with its international affiliate, the World Cancer Research Fund, issued a major international report, Food, Nutrition and the Prevention of Cancer: A Global Perspective. This report analyzed more than 4,500 research studies, and its production involved the participation of more than 120 contributors and peer reviewers, including participants from the World Health Organization, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, the International Agency on Research in Cancer, and the U.S. National Cancer Institute. In 2000, Riva Bitrum, the President of Research for the American Institute for Cancer Research, said that "Studies showing consistently that just one serving a day of soyfoods contributes to a reduction in cancer risk are encouraging. Consuming one serving of soyfoods is a step most individuals would not find too difficult to take."

  3. #3
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    2 quotes from this page

    http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

    Scientists agree that foods rich in soy protein can have considerable value to heart health, a fact backed by dozens of controlled clinical studies. A yearlong review of the available human studies in 1999 prompted FDA to allow a health claim on food labels stating that a daily diet containing 25 grams of soy protein, also low in saturated fat and cholesterol, may reduce the risk of heart disease.
    One of the studies, conducted over nine weeks at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center and reported in the Archives of Internal Medicine in 1999, found that soy protein can reduce plasma concentrations of total and LDL cholesterol but does not adversely affect levels of HDL, or "good" cholesterol, which at high levels has been associated with a reduction in heart disease risk. Another often-quoted study, published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1995, examined 38 separate studies and concluded that soy protein can prompt "significant reductions" not only in total and LDL cholesterol, but also in triglycerides, another fat linked to health problems when present at elevated levels.

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    The effect is has on cholesterol is priceless to juicers. We often cycle without any concern for cholesterol values that gets severly ****ed upp from the roids and anti estrogens/anti aromatasa. Making sure cholesterol is good should be one of the major concerns.

    One bad thing about soy is that it has been shown to lower testosterone and dht. But I have no clue by what mechanism and if it would effect a juicer. So it might not be the best choise for a natural bodybuilder or when on pct.

    There are some concerns about its content of enzymes that inhibits protein absorbation, haemagglutinin that can cause blood cloting, goitrogens that can effect the thyroid gland and phytates that can block minerals(zink especialy). But the effects are minimal and nothing to be concerned of if you dont eat insane ammounts of soybeans.

  5. #5
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    This is a crazy link my brother sent me that might change some pro soy minds.
    http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

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    Soya was big in the 80s

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    now post what is negative about it and why it is not liked by BB'ers and lets compare the two

  8. #8
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    well, i loved the soy milk low carb stuuf, was great for shakes, till i read that it promotes estrogen and ish, o well...
    everything in moderation is key

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by abstrack
    now post what is negative about it and why it is not liked by BB'ers and lets compare the two
    The negative things I have read is that it contains enzymes that can block protien absorbation, haemagglutinin, goitrogens and phytates. IMO from what I have read that is not a big deal at all.

    Here is a good site that deals with those things(it doesnt have any references though).
    http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm

    It also lowers testosterone and DHT like I mentioned. But does that have any effect on us that is on aas??

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15735098

    Soy protein isolates of varying isoflavone content exert minor effects on serum reproductive hormones in healthy young men.

    Dillingham BL, McVeigh BL, Lampe JW, Duncan AM.

    Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.

    Inverse associations between soy and prostate cancer and the contribution of hormones to prostate cancer prompted the current study to determine whether soy protein could alter serum hormones in men. Thirty-five men consumed milk protein isolate (MPI), low-isoflavone soy protein isolate (SPI) (low-iso SPI; 1.64 +/- 0.19 mg isoflavones/d), and high-iso SPI (61.7 +/- 7.35 mg isoflavones/d) for 57 d each in a randomized crossover design. Twenty-four-hour urine samples indicated that urinary isoflavones were significantly increased by the high-iso SPI relative to the low-iso SPI and MPI. Serum collected on d 1, 29, and 57 of each treatment revealed that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and DHT/testosterone were significantly decreased by the low-iso SPI [9.4% (P = 0.036) and 9.0% (P = 0.004), respectively] and the high-iso SPI [15% (P = 0.047) and 14% (P = 0.013), respectively], compared with the MPI at d 57. Other significant effects included a decrease in testosterone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI (P = 0.023) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.020) at d 29; an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 29 (P = 0.001) and relative to the MPI (P = 0.0003) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.005) at d 57; and increases in estradiol and estrone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 57 (P = 0.010 and P = 0.005, respectively). In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones. The relevance of the magnitude of these effects to future prostate cancer risk requires further investigation.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

    PMID: 15735098 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    To me the positivs outweigh the negatives. Everyone here eats meat right. What does the saturated fats in meat do to us? What does all the antibiotics and other crap they cram into the stock do to us? Not to mention what they feed the animals with.
    100 years ago regular meat even fatty cuts was probably healthy and good. Nowdays its not.

    No food is strictly positive(except ecologicaly grown veggies I guess).
    Meat has the above mentioned drawbacks along with the high cost of lean meat.
    Fatty fish would be flawless if it wasnt for the pcp and other chemical contents.
    Lean fish like tuna has mercury in it. Fresh lean fish is usualy a bit on the expensive side.

    Before bashing soy it might be wise to consider the negatives with the other stuff we eat

    Maby there is other reasons why bb'ers avoid soy? Have only recently begun reading about soy so I might have missed something.

  10. #10
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    Studie that shows that soy probably doesnt have any real effect on hormone levels

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12094627

    Nutr Cancer. 2001;41(1-2):41-6. Related Articles, Links


    Soy milk intake in relation to serum sex hormone levels in British men.

    Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK, Key TJ.

    Cancer Research UK Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Oxford OX2 6HE, UK. naomi.allen@cancer.org.uk

    Soy beans contain high levels of the isoflavones genistein and daidzein and their glycosides and have been implicated in the prevention of prostate cancer, possibly via their effects on sex hormone metabolism. The aim of this study was to assess the relation between dietary soy intake and sex hormone levels in a cross-sectional analysis of 696 men with a wide range of soy intakes. Soy milk intake was measured using a validated semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire, and serum hormone concentrations were measured by immunoassay. Multiple regression was used to investigate the association between soy milk intake, an index of isoflavone intake, and hormone levels after adjustment for pertinent confounders. Soy milk intake was not associated with serum concentrations of testosterone , free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide, sex hormone-binding globulin, or luteinizing hormone. These results suggest that soy milk intake, as a marker of isoflavone intake, is not associated with serum sex hormone concentrations among free-living Western men.

    PMID: 12094627 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  11. #11
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    soy and the thyroid

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12060828

    just a short quote from that link

    Furthermore, rat TPO activity was dose-dependently reduced by up to 80%. Although these effects are clear and reproducible, other measures of thyroid function in vivo (serum levels of triiodothyronine, thyroxine, and thyroid-stimulating hormone; thyroid weight; and thyroid histopathology) were all normal. Additional factors appear necessary for soy to cause overt thyroid toxicity

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    I do find alot of studies that shows that people that are taking levaxin needs more of it when they eat diets high in soy. So it does have some effect.

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    for one thing i didnt bash soy. I asked to post the negatives of it. Your main point is that it has good saturated fats. I can think of other way of gettings EFA's into my body without adding soy into the mix.

    If you are refering to soy milk then why would I want to consume more sugars? I dont drink milk already.

    thanks but no thanks. I rather stick to my mecury infested mahi mahi steaks, succulent slabs of hormone infested beef and my good ole whey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by abstrack
    for one thing i didnt bash soy. I asked to post the negatives of it. Your main point is that it has good saturated fats. I can think of other way of gettings EFA's into my body without adding soy into the mix.

    If you are refering to soy milk then why would I want to consume more sugars? I dont drink milk already.

    thanks but no thanks. I rather stick to my mecury infested mahi mahi steaks, succulent slabs of hormone infested beef and my good ole whey!

    I came off the wrong way. I was just honestly curious if there is anything I have missed since I eat this stuff I want to make sure its safe. I just dont understand why bodybuilders would avoid soy when bulking? Is there any specific reason you dont touch it?

    I wonder if the cholesterol lowering effects of soy is only because of the good fats in it or if its because of other factors

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    I have no choice to use soy protein cause i am lactore intolerent and get huge stomach bloating each time i eat dairy, milk, cottage cheese and cheese are all out.

    I mix my soy milk with whey protein and found it to be quit good.

    Has a snak soy nuts unsalted can be very good either for salad add ons or just snack on them.

    Lots of soy products are crappy, the chocolat flavors and all the puddings ice cream, they are loaded with sugar.

    You can buy unsweeted soy milk and make sure to read the labels also for sugar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abstrack
    for one thing i didnt bash soy. I asked to post the negatives of it. Your main point is that it has good saturated fats. I can think of other way of gettings EFA's into my body without adding soy into the mix.

    If you are refering to soy milk then why would I want to consume more sugars? I dont drink milk already.

    thanks but no thanks. I rather stick to my mecury infested mahi mahi steaks, succulent slabs of hormone infested beef and my good ole whey!
    No flame intended bro, but there's no such thing as a good saturated fat. Monounsaturated and polyunsaturated are the good ones. IMO, the biggest benefit of soy comes from dairy replacement, not meat replacement. Dairy products can potentially have some very bad affects on your health. (So can red meat, but moderation will handle that)

    My wife and I have started drinking soy milk as well as other soy based products such as tofu and soy cheese. Both of our bf%'s begain dropping after week 2 and have stayed lower. I know it sounds manly and cool to say "I'll just have my steak and taters", but there's a lot of negatives to eating traditional american foods.

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    i believe soy should be mandatory due to its isoflavins they help prevent my chances of acquiring breast cancer!

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    not even close to my top 3 choices of pro

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    I to avoid soy... but I have added it into my diet a time or two in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    4. The protein has a complete aminoacid profile.

    I'd like to know where you got this info because I was under the impression that the opposite is true and that's why it's no good. Not available to muscle.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by co2boi
    No flame intended bro, but there's no such thing as a good saturated fat. .
    acctualy there are. MCT oils are a good example of good saturated fats. Humans have eaten saturated fats since dawn of mankind without a problem. Its the transfats and hydrogenated veggie oils that are unhealthy.

    But it was just a typo by abstrack he meant my mainpoint was that is healthy unsaturated fats

    My wife and I have started drinking soy milk as well as other soy based products such as tofu and soy cheese. Both of our bf%'s begain dropping after week 2 and have stayed lower. I know it sounds manly and cool to say "I'll just have my steak and taters", but there's a lot of negatives to eating traditional american foods.
    Im glad Im not the only one including soy and seeing benifits from it. I dropped a couple of ibs from the diet change without any effort. All I did was replace 500g meat a day with such a ammount of soy to cover the loss of protein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    I'd like to know where you got this info because I was under the impression that the opposite is true and that's why it's no good. Not available to muscle.

    With complete I mean it has all the amino acids we need. Not like in the amino acids in the perfect ratios that makes absorbation optimal.
    I could probably dig upp a aminoacid profile but it doesnt realy tell me much

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    acctualy there are. MCT oils are a good example of good saturated fats. Humans have eaten saturated fats since dawn of mankind without a problem. Its the transfats and hydrogenated veggie oils that are unhealthy.
    Ah yes, I forgot about the C-12 fats. They are really of no consequence to me since they have to be special ordered (to my knowledge). I stand corrected however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    With complete I mean it has all the amino acids we need. Not like in the amino acids in the perfect ratios that makes absorbation optimal.
    I could probably dig upp a aminoacid profile but it doesnt realy tell me much
    I thought it was a poor choice of protein for the purpose of protein synthesis in the muscle, which is the goal of protein ingestion in a bb diet. So I don't understand why you think it's a good part of a bb diet.

    What do you get from adding soy, that you can't get from other sources, while choosing proteins that would be more available to muscle?

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    because soy is healthy and has good carbs/fats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    What do you get from adding soy, that you can't get from other sources, while choosing proteins that would be more available to muscle?

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    Wow, just had a N.Y. Strip that was amazing.

    Very lean as well.

    ~SC~

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    Wow, just had a N.Y. Strip that was amazing.

    Very lean as well.

    ~SC~
    I think he's telling you bunch of sissyasses to eat some real meat!


    j/k j/k

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    I think he's telling you bunch of sissyasses to eat some real meat!
    j/k j/k
    You win? That's funny, I didn't get to vote.

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    Ease up, I said I was kidding. Besides, it''s okay not to agree.
    Last edited by alphaman; 05-17-2005 at 03:04 PM.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    I thought it was a poor choice of protein for the purpose of protein synthesis in the muscle, which is the goal of protein ingestion in a bb diet. So I don't understand why you think it's a good part of a bb diet.

    What do you get from adding soy, that you can't get from other sources, while choosing proteins that would be more available to muscle?
    Soy gives good fats, good carbs, good quality protein and lots of fibers for a price that is like 1/5th of the alternatives. It also has anti cancerogenic properties(cant be found in meat for instance). The isoflavones and phytoestrogens I guess cant be found in other products we eat regulary.

    Here the protein quality is compered with other protein sources. Link provides explenations to the terms.

    http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/7/1865S



    Protein PER Digestibility AAS PDCAAS
    %
    Egg 3.8 98 121 118
    Cows milk 3.1 95 127 121
    Beef 2.9 98 94 92
    Soy 2.1 95 96 91
    wheat 1.5 91 47 42
    Soy isnt far behind meat thats for sure. Its way lower though in BV tabels and I dont know what is more accurate realy.

    quote from another page
    http://www.heartlandfields.com/soy_health/proteins.html
    Plant proteins are often considered to be of lower quality than animal proteins because they have a lower content of certain essential amino acids. Grains tend to be low in lysine, while beans tend to be low in the sulfur amino acids, methionine and cysteine. Though still limited in sulfur amino acids, soybeans have more than other beans. The amino acid profile of soybeans compares well with human requirements. The World Health Organization has established that when consumed at the recommended level of protein intake, soy protein contains sufficient amounts of all essential amino acids for human needs, and is considered equivalent to animal protein in quality
    So eating something that is high in sulfur amino acids would make soy just as good as meat if not better. If I dont remember wrong eggs and diary products are high in sulfur aminoacids. So eating 1-2 eggs along with the meal fixes that problem. Its still cheaper then protein and all of a sudden the protein quality is above meat and at the same time you get the cholesterol lowering effect(from a combination of the good fats and isoflavones), carbs far superior to rice, pasta ect(unless its a ppwo meal) when bulking and alot of the fats you need. Not to mention it tastes good to

    Keep in mind Im not proposing that people should turn veggitarian. I just mean that from a health perspective adding soybeans to a couple of meals here and there might improve health and be a very welcome addition to all poor bodyuilders diets since the price can not be beaten.

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    http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/soyvswhy.htm

    Several studies have been done to assess any differences in weight gain between individuals supplementing with whey protein, soy protein, or egg protein. SURPRISE, SURPRISE! There were NO differences whatsoever (statistically speaking) between the effectiveness of the proteins. Remember, all three of these proteins are designed to stimulate growth-- albeit in chicks, calves, etc. So, is one really better than another? Not according to the weight gained in the studies.

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    here is a awsome article that explains the downsides and uppsides with soy and how to utilise it. Its soy protein powder not soybeans though but still a excelent read

    http://www.strengthcats.com/soyproteinarticle9.htm

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    mfenske's Avatar
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    There was an article in Muscular Development this month about that same topic. In summation, it said, use which ever protein tastes better to you. Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    here is a awsome article that explains the downsides and uppsides with soy and how to utilise it. Its soy protein powder not soybeans though but still a excelent read

    http://www.strengthcats.com/soyproteinarticle9.htm
    That article had some pretty interesting stuff in it, but it still said that for muscle, soy wasn't the best choice and to only use ten to thirty grams to benefit from the advantages of soy. And the only real advantage to a bodybuilder, is that it may up your thyroid production if your diet is stagnant.

    I never said it wasn't healthy, I said I thought there were better protein choices for the sake of muscle, and the author of that article seems to think so as well.

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    I like the soy protein burgers, but I wouldnt buy them if I had a choice. I dont drink soy milk or any milk for all that it matters.

    I like fish, egg whites,whey, white meats, beef and to beat my meat on the occasion here and there. I just dont consider soy or most likely never will. I like to keep things simple for the most part and stick with clean carbs and lean meats, etc..

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    I never said it wasn't healthy, I said I thought there were better protein choices for the sake of muscle, and the author of that article seems to think so as well.
    Yupp and I also agree and explained how one would make the soy protein just as good as meat for the sake of muscle(by combining it with eggs for instance that is high in sulfur amino acids).

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    I think the bottomline is personal experience. I have read so many pages that supports the use of soy and equaly many that is against it. Both sides have good arguments and both sides are good at picking apart the other sides argument with valid studies. The only thing that is for sure is the cholesterol lowering effects and the anticancerogenic effects and those 2 to me feels very important. Especialy since I dont want roids to screw upp my lipid profiles to much. Many bodybuilders use cholesterol medicin to make sure the bad cholesterol is low, megadoes of niacin ect ect ect. Why not make some few diet changes instead

    IMO I think protein quality is overrated(except in the pwo shake). Since the body can combine aminoacids as it wish from different foods the key is to eat a varity of things. Soy can make some foods better while other foods makes soy better. Same goes for meat and just about everything except whey since whey is complete already.

    My experience with soy sofar is that I have dropped a little weight, I look better, I feel better, I am stronger. Cant realy give all the credit to soy since I have begun eating lots of other veggies to. But the bottomline is soy hasnt in anyway hurt my gains, quite the opposit I have never feet this good while on a diet. I started this thread to give a more positive view on soy then is general among bodybuilders and I hope I have succeded

    Here is a good qoute from a article I posted a link to in this thread that nails it. To much of anything is never good.

    It's true that soybeans contain substances that in excess can be harmful. But to imply, as some do, that as a result eating soyfoods poses a risk to human health is taking things much further than the evidence warrants. There would be dangers in eating a diet based entirely on soybeans. But, then, the same could be said for broccoli or any other healthy food. This is one of the reasons why varied diets are so important. Diversity protects. For most people under most circumstances, soy products are a healthful addition to a balanced diet that includes plenty of vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts, fruits, and other legumes. For most people, substituting soyfoods for some of the animal foods they now eat is one of the healthiest dietary changes they could make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abstrack
    I like the soy protein burgers, but I wouldnt buy them if I had a choice. I dont drink soy milk or any milk for all that it matters.

    I like fish, egg whites,whey, white meats, beef and to beat my meat on the occasion here and there. I just dont consider soy or most likely never will. I like to keep things simple for the most part and stick with clean carbs and lean meats, etc..

    thats cool. I just like to mix soybeans down with any meat I eat even fish. Fills me upp better. Just a matter of taste and money in the end I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by co2boi
    Ah yes, I forgot about the C-12 fats. They are really of no consequence to me since they have to be special ordered (to my knowledge). I stand corrected however.

    Nah if you by c-12 mean mct fats then you can get them by eating avacado or coconuts or by consuming unrefined coconut oil/butter/fat whatever its called.

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