question on carbs if you do cardio on empty stomach

[simplecanibus]

Ok, so I'm starting to diet and my main question is this: I will be doing cardio every morning (4-5 days a week, not every day) on an empty stomach...I know I'm not supposed to eat carbs after, just a fat and protein meal, but am I supposed to or even allowed to eat any carbs at all the rest of the day? If not it sounds like a keto diet, which I'm not too fond of. But I've never figured that out, so any help would be great. Here's my stats:

Age: 21
Weight: 154
Height: 5'9
Body Fat: 9%

[Cry0smate]

Typically there are 2 choices allowed

1.) Have a Pro/Carb 45 mins after your cardio session
2.) Have a Pro/Fat anytime right after your cardio session

If you want to still have some carbs during the day you can go:

Cardio
Pro/Carb 45 mins later
Pro/Fat
Pro/Fat
Workout
PWO
PWO 2
Pro/Fat

Something along those lines and just see how it works out for you. I had better luck going pro/fat after cardio

[simplecanibus]

Great advice.

How often do you recommend I workout? I'm not looking to get any bigger.

Also, what do you guys think about the idea of not eliminating carbs doing a cutting phase? I mean like 40/40/20 split between pro/carbs/fat? It's not a big deal, it's just a hell of a lot easier for me to eat oatmeal and protein for the first half of the day then resort to protein/fat meals. Thanks again.

[big'r]

There's no problem in using carbs following cardio.

Furthermore, you loose fat from burning more cals. than you take in.
I never understand people who don't eat post cardio.

Let's put it this way:
If you use up 3000 kcal./day and you eat 2500 kcal./day, would it matter if you ate the carbs immediately post cardio, or 1 hour post cardio?
Both ways you are 500 kcal. deficient, so you loose fat or muscle.
So for fat loss it will not matter, but if you also want to protect you muscle, i suggest eating carbs + protein immediately following you cardio. This way you will give your muscle some fuel/building blocks and will prevent insane peaks in cortisol levels.

[Cry0smate]

I'm not a calorie counter as I was taught differently from SC. I believe in his methods simply due to the fact that they work and they work well.

I do not believe in taking in carbs directly after a cardio session for the simple reason that it blunts lipolysis in it's tracks. If you are going to do a pro/carb meal, wait so that the fat burning effect can continue.

JMO

[simplecanibus]

Sweet.

So hey, are you saying SC taught you not to count calories? I haven't been b/c I'm lazy as all hell, but I want to cut right, I'll do anything. Thanks for all the advice so far.

[Cry0smate]

Check out the cutting sticky and do a search for SC's "Why I dont count calories" thread. It contains some very valuable information. Stuff that changed my old outlooks dramatically!

[SwoleCat]

Mmmmm, I'm afraid it's not that simple. The calorie in vs. calorie out theory says NOTHING about what the body composition will be. May wish to read my article titled "Why I don't count calories". It's pretty informative.

~SC~

There's no problem in using carbs following cardio.

Furthermore, you loose fat from burning more cals. than you take in.
I never understand people who don't eat post cardio.

Let's put it this way:
If you use up 3000 kcal./day and you eat 2500 kcal./day, would it matter if you ate the carbs immediately post cardio, or 1 hour post cardio?
Both ways you are 500 kcal. deficient, so you loose fat or muscle.
So for fat loss it will not matter, but if you also want to protect you muscle, i suggest eating carbs + protein immediately following you cardio. This way you will give your muscle some fuel/building blocks and will prevent insane peaks in cortisol levels.

[simplecanibus]

anybody mind posting me the link to swole's thread? i looked for it high and low and can't seem to find it. thanks.

[big'r]

I can't find it either.
But i'm always interested to read and hopefully learn some new things.

So, anybody??

[Cry0smate]

I thought it was on this board and it may be but I can't find it via search either, but here it is:

From SwoleCat and the V.X Library....

Thought I'd share my views on Kcals, macros, the idea of a "calorie is a calorie", timing of nutrients, etc. This is located in my V.X. Virtual Library, and I have copied/pasted it here. I thought it may stir questions/convo, and get people to think against "traditional" thinking. It's in all caps, sorry about that......

~SC~

It's TRADITIONAL thinking, and the main reason diets fail YOU!

If you were allowed 3000 calories a day, and would still lose weight eating that amount, let's try something. Say u eat 6 times that day, and each meal is 400 calories......you'd only eat 2400 that day, and you could have as much as 3000 and still lose weight right. So, we now sit at 600 kcals below what we could still ingest and lose weight. K, what if we make all those meals something like pizza, hamburgers, pasta w/meat, etc. Or any hi GI food and fat together. Or, any lower GI food and fat together for the "low GI" enforcers. (a good practice, yes, but if you change your thinking about eating, high GI vs. Low GI is not as much of an issue any longer, if at all! Read on) just because your calorie total at the end of the day will be lower than you even targeted, do u not think u will be storing fat from those kind of food choices above? Bet your sweaty butt crack you will!

It's not merely total calories at the "end of the day" as many focus their diet construction upon, it's the macros at each meal and what those meals are aimed to accomplish. What have you done hours ago to justify what you are eating now? What are you going to do in an hour or so that justifies what you are going to eat right now? Those are very key questions.

"But swolecat, if I burn 3000 a day and only eat 2400, I have to lose weight right?" well, first and foremost, no. If every meal or even half of your meals are filled with carbs/fat even w/without protein, you can bet the body will want to hold on to some of that fat for later, either from converted carbs or the fat itself. It does not know what total calorie amount you are going to end up w/at the end of the day. U could very well lose muscle too, especially since those poor food choices would do little for a positive nitrogen balance and utilizing protein for muscle growth. You now have each meal proportioned incorrectly so you aren't going to lose excess bodyfat let alone build lean mass, something I have experimented with, both with my body and other locals years ago before making my programs official. I also have a problem looking at the concept of "how many calories each day", as I don't believe in cut-off times as I mentioned before. Fat loss and muscular growth do not have cut-off times. As well, we all have different schedules and lifestyles........an hour is an hour, yes, but that's as far as I take it. Think in shorter durations, from meal to meal and one meal ahead maybe. It's this macro-nutrient per-meal thinking that allows you to make better gains, see what mistakes you make and be able to identify them easier, and be able to make the changes immediately in order to save valuable time. Don't look at it from a daily total standpoint, look at it from an hour to hour standpoint, going by activity, recovery needs, things that will halt growth/fat loss, etc. It's much easier to analyze what "section" of your diet is at fault, rather than looking at total calories per day and merely reducing that amount! (then u have to worry about what calories u are taking away to create a deficit, and make sure that doesn't hinder progress either) many simply do not know how to do this, and it does vary a lot from person to person. This is one reason I have a month of consultation when trying my programs, as I am there 24-7 (pretty close) to answer questions about the program, make changes if any, work with clients' hectic schedules, time changes, etc. All can be worked through, and I am there to make sure it happens.

Food choices as to when, with what, in what amount, why, etc. All play a bigger part in your body transformation journey than do counting calories. I am not saying you can eat 1000 over maintenance and lose weight, (u can get damn close if you strategically plan this though and not think on a 24 hour clock, really you can!),but you get my idea. U cannot diet with the wrong macros and worry about total calories only thinking that is what matters. Think like an animal basically........what activity are you going to do, what have you just done, what energy (foods) are best at these times to accomplish these goals? Then take into account your stats and figure out how much fat/carbs/pro at each meal for regular meals, post-workout, etc. I myself have a spreadsheet formula that in on my computer, created by me, to give me each clients exact macros by meal for days they train w/weights, and days they do not train w/weights. Yes, there are two different "eating patterns" as I call them, and they are very effective. My spreadsheet was tinkered w/for about 2 years by me, adjusting percentages w/regards to certain variables, and other changes, having tested the formula on myself many times, using it for my shows (which I won and qualified for nationals doing), and a host of people around my area. I finally "mastered" the formula, and it has yet to fail on anyone I’ve helped. We can make changes to the amounts, yes, as some will respond differently than others will, and that is due to genetics, recovery ability, insulin sensitivity, and metabolism. However, as stated before, all can be addressed and worked through with a few simple/minor adjustments. (consultation is the key to this, and that is communication!)

There are other factors I use, but this is one reason you never see a total calorie count on an sgx/sup program. If you were to break it down, the amounts would be far different than the "traditional" calorie amounts you would arrive at using those traditional methods, and there is a good reason for that. My programs are designed through my formula for macros, and those were arrived upon by using bodyweight, but all of the other intricacies I take into account like cardio, weights, limitations, etc., make it easier to target the individuals macro needs than to just say, "oh a 200 lb person needs 2200 calories to diet." then break down how much protein/fat/carbs/etc........that is a start, but what happens if those macros are at the wrong place, wrong time, wrong amount to achieve what could be optimal results? As well, each person is different, and you must know how to adjust the amounts judging by the feedback the client gives you, something that I am very good at doing.

Sorry, I’m on a rant, but pretty soon this idea will be explained more in depth by me. Until then, it will continue to fuel the programs I make and continue to get people in the best shape they have ever been.

[N00b]

Typically there are 2 choices allowed

1.) Have a Pro/Carb 45 mins after your cardio session
2.) Have a Pro/Fat anytime right after your cardio session

If you want to still have some carbs during the day you can go:

Cardio
Pro/Carb 45 mins later
Pro/Fat
Pro/Fat
Workout
PWO
PWO 2
Pro/Fat

Something along those lines and just see how it works out for you. I had better luck going pro/fat after cardio

This is what I'm doing, tell me if it's ok:

cardio
pro/carb
pwo
ppwo
pro/fat
pro/fat
pro/fat

Is it ok to have your first meal in between cardio and then a lifting session?

[Cry0smate]

It's best if you can separate your lifting and cardio. I had much better results doing my cardio in the AM on empty and the doing my lifting sessions later in the day followed by PWO and PPWO.

When I first started out I did everything together and the results were good but I got waaaaaaay too thin with little mass gain.

[N00b]

It's best if you can separate your lifting and cardio. I had much better results doing my cardio in the AM on empty and the doing my lifting sessions later in the day followed by PWO and PPWO.

When I first started out I did everything together and the results were good but I got waaaaaaay too thin with little mass gain.

I seperate my cardio and lifting by a span of about 3-4 hours. Is that enough time? If lets say I do cardio from 8-9 and then hit the weights around 12. Is that ok or would there be a major difference if I bumped my lifting up another 3 hours and ate a second meal after my first pro/carb? thanks

[Cry0smate]

I believe they usually recommend atleast 3 meals prior to lifting. I'll bump this for more experienced posters as I have only tried it the 2 ways.

BUMP!

[taiboxa]

I believe they usually recommend atleast 3 meals prior to lifting. I'll bump this for more experienced posters as I have only tried it the 2 ways.

BUMP!

im happy w/ a pro/fat and pro/carb *(2 meals total) before lifting.