Experiment begins(ascorbic acid)

[kaptainkeezy04]

what do you mean with IV? Intravenous? I wouldnt feel comfterable injecting stuff into my veins even though I have seen descriptions on how to make home made iv sodium ascorbat. But thats to risky I wouldnt do it unless Im under doc supervision.

IM would be a whole different thing though but I dont know in what concentrations and how much could be shot in each spot ect.

Shit man I used to watch my Dad inject vitamins and minerals straight into people (i think maybe in their hearts) when they were in a coma and only eating from a tube and watch them gain significant weight. I know this is off subject but just thought I would throw that out there. BTW he is a doctor lol.

[Veretta21]

Johan as I mentioned earlier to you I have been taking around 5 grams of pure ascorbic acid daily, 2.5 in the morning with breakfast and around 2.5 at like 6pm around dinner time---my energy has been unreal since I have been doing this---I know its only 5 grams but no other changes have been made in my diet and I feel more energetic---my question to you is that I have been having trouble sleeping at night and I think it is due to the Vit. C----I am wondering if you experienced these problems---I am taking a gram of melatonin to help me sleep and hope my body catches on---wondering what you think?

[Kärnfysikern]

hey bro.

The energy boost is nice isnt it

Im not sure about the sleep. I havent realy noticed any effect on my sleep. I could however speculate that you might need to supplement with magnesium because I think vit c could increase the rate it gets excreted from the body. Try a zink and magnesium supplement before you go to beed maby?

Do you usualy have any trubble going to sleep?

[Austex]

Johan as I mentioned earlier to you I have been taking around 5 grams of pure ascorbic acid daily, 2.5 in the morning with breakfast and around 2.5 at like 6pm around dinner time---my energy has been unreal since I have been doing this---I know its only 5 grams but no other changes have been made in my diet and I feel more energetic---my question to you is that I have been having trouble sleeping at night and I think it is due to the Vit. C----I am wondering if you experienced these problems---I am taking a gram of melatonin to help me sleep and hope my body catches on---wondering what you think?

<On a side note>

I like the "deep sleep" that comes from supplementing melatonin. However, whenever I take it (maybe 15 minutes before bedtime) I ALWAYS wake up after about 4-5 hours. I feel refreshed and wide awake even though I know I need to get a full 8 hours rest...so often times I'll spend an hour trying to fall back asleep. Any such similar instances?

[Veretta21]

Never had any problems with sleep before---will try the zinc and magnesium--also Johan my body reacted differently with the sodium ascorbate--I never felt these effects with that as I do with the ascorbic acid its pretty cool--Austex I usually wake up in the middle of the night to take a piss and when I take melatonin and have to wake up to piss I feel like a ran into a brick wall--I need a full 8 hours of sleep and I will feel refreshed in the morning--any less and I am like a zombie with melatonin

[Kärnfysikern]

thats a bit odd. Is it the ascorbic acid or the sodium ascorbate that gives the insomnia??

[Veretta21]

Its the ascorbic acid that does---its also the ascorbic acid that I really feel the effects of the Vit. C too---anyways as of right now I am loving this supplement---could be the best thing that I have ever taken---keep the updates coming on the Vit. C--love to read about them----one more thing---what do you think about supplementing with Vit. E--is there a need for it? Also a B Complex vitamin?

[Kärnfysikern]

I love to supplement with vit e and b. Im gonna give you a list of all my supps. I dont "notice" any effect form them however. Not like from vitamin c. But according to my bloodwork I am in awsome health so they must do something

vitamin c 15g/day
b vitamin complex 2/day
folic acid 1000mcg/day
b12 4000mcg/day
b6 300mg/day
beta carotene 50mg/day
glucosamin 1000mg/day
vitamin e around 4mg/day
selenium 100mcg/day
zink 45mg/day
Probiotics
multivitamins tripple dosage

[Veretta21]

Well ok--my question is are there certain times when you shouldn't have two of the supplements together? For example I heard not to take E and C at the same time, if this is true how long do I wait to take E if I just took Vit. C?

[Kärnfysikern]

I dont know of any reason not to take e and c at the same time. to be honest. Usualy vitamins help each other in beeing abosorbed by the body.

But there might be a reason not to combine them that I havent read. A hour betwen c and e should be plenty in that case since c has a very short half life.

[Ridla]

what should the diet look like for optimal fatloss on VIT. C?

[Kärnfysikern]

just like a regular diet, It helps with slin sensitivity ect kind of like r-ala and similar products while lowering cortisol.

[Ridla]

Yeah my main concern is to get rid of the high levels of cortisol...we on game cuz......U have beeen a great help!

[Ridla]

do U take it with food or do U just spread it out through hte day?

[Kärnfysikern]

I take it whenever I remember. Doesnt realy matter. But if you take mineral supplements take some vitamin c at the same time since it increases mineral absorbation

[Ridla]

how dangerous can ascorbic acid be if u have a week stomach???

[Kärnfysikern]

I dont know to be honest. I dont think it would be dangerous mostly uncomfterable and painfull. But if you have a ulcer or kathaar drinking lots of ascorbic acid could make it worse I guess.

If you have to use ascorbic acid mix it with baking soda. That increases ph. Or with a regular anti acid.

[Ridla]

What is with the vitamin C that has a type of calcium in it instead of ascorbic??

[Kärnfysikern]

its just a mineral ascorbate like sodium ascorbate. I wouldnt recomend it however since I wouldnt recomend consuming the ammounts of calcium that you would get from megadosing calcium ascorbate.

[Alpha-Male]

so IYO, it's beneficial to megadose some vitamins/minerals and not others?

[IronFreakX]

so IYO, it's beneficial to megadose some vitamins/minerals and not others?

Im not johan , but ill answer this

yes it is , cause some vitamins offer no benefits when increased , some might even cause negative effects....and some wont offer the benefits cept in megadoses(I hate calling it megadoses since its just the rite dose actually)

just dont trust anyone who wants to be "politically correct"...dont trust a madman either

[Kärnfysikern]

exactly what iron said. Some vitamins can be extremely dangerous to toy around with in higher dosage while others are harmless. But only vitamin c is benificial in these dosages.

[Alpha-Male]

hmm, okay, well, i know you started this 'lil experiment back in June, but i don't wanna read through all those posts...gimme an update if you don't mind...how have things been going? i mean, what kind of "results" are you contributing to your trials, any? just curious, since, as you know from before, i'm not exactly a proponent of megadosing anything

AM

[Alpha-Male]

i mean, it seems as though every study i've seen involving "positive" effects of "megadoses" of ascorbic acid, fail to do one thing: they do not qualify whether or not those same benefits can be obtained at lower doses, or so-called "normal" doses of the vitamin...one wouldn't need to follow the same protocol when assessing negative effects of "megadosing", except maybe to pinpoint a limit at which the efficacy of supplementation is maximized and potential side effects are minimized...however, i haven't seen any study, to date, that has succeeded in doing so...

i realize that you feel Vitamin C is the "only" vitamin out there which, at "doses significantly higher than RDA" (is that better than "megadose"?), are not harmful to the body, but that's just not sound reasoning...there are documented examples of too much VitC causing problems in the human body, true, maybe not as significant as some vitamins or minerals, but excess of anything is not good...

Vitamin neurotoxicity.

Snodgrass SR.

Department of Neurology, University of Southern California, School of Medicine, Los Angeles 90033.

Vitamins contain reactive functional groups necessary to their established roles as coenzymes and reducing agents. Their reactive potential may produce injury if vitamin concentration, distribution, or metabolism is altered. However, identification of vitamin toxicity has been difficult. The only well-established human vitamin neurotoxic effects are those due to hypervitaminosis A (pseudotumor cerebri) and pyridoxine (sensory neuropathy). In each case, the neurological effects of vitamin deficiency and vitamin excess are similar. Closely related to the neurological symptoms of hypervitaminosis A are symptoms including headache, pseudotumor cerebri, and embryotoxic effects reported in patients given vitamin A analogs or retinoids. Most tissues contain retinoic acid (RA) and vitamin D receptors, members of a steroid receptor superfamily known to regulate development and gene expression. Vitamin D3 effects on central nervous system (CNS) gene expression are predictable, in addition to the indirect effects owing to its influence on calcium and phosphorus homeostasis. Folates and thiamine cause seizures and excitation when administered in high dosage directly into the brain or cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of experimental animals but have rarely been reported to cause human neurotoxicity, although fatal reactions to i.v. thiamine are well known. Ascorbic acid influences CNS function after peripheral administration and influences brain cell differentiation and 2-deoxyglucose accumulation by cultured glial cells. Biotin influences gene expression in animals that are not vitamin-deficient and alters astrocyte glucose utilization. The multiple enzymes and binding proteins involved in regeneration of retinal vitamin A illustrate the complexity of vitamin processing in the body. Vitamin A toxicity is also a good general model of vitamin neurotoxicity, because it shows the importance of the ratio of vitamin and vitamin-binding proteins in producing vitamin toxicity and of CNS permeability barriers. Because vitamin A and analogs enter the CNS better than most vitamins, and because retinoids have many effects on enzyme activity and gene expression, Vitamin A neurotoxicity is more likely than that of most, perhaps all other vitamins. Megadose vitamin therapy may cause injury that is confused with disease symptoms. High vitamin intake is more hazardous to peripheral organs than to the nervous system, because CNS vitamin entry is restricted. Vitamin administration into the brain or CSF, recommended in certain disease states, is hazardous and best avoided. The lack of controlled trials prevents us from defining the lowest human neurotoxic dose of any vitamin. Large differences in individual susceptibility to vitamin neurotoxicity probably exist, and ordinary vitamin doses may harm occasional patients with genetic disorders

granted, there are documented benefits to having "higher than RDA" levels of VitC, but IMO, there's a level or threshold if you will, at which the possible harmful effects outweigh the so-called benefits...

JMO

that's why i was wondering what kind of actualized "benefits" you felt you were getting from this experiment, and if you TRULY believed that you could not obtain those same benefits with "normal", or even a little above "normal" doses...or better yet, from proper diet/nutrition, which would surely give you adequate amounts of ALL vitamins/minerals...

AM

[Alpha-Male]

one more thing...i do think there is something to the IV adminstration of ascorbic acid, and would like to mention a study i found that was done on cancer patients, in which the IV adminstration of megadoses, and i mean super megadoses (like those in the Poliquin experiments), were shown to have some sort of toxicity to cancer cells...it's a little long so i'll just post the link...

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/4/423

[Kärnfysikern]

I will get back to you tomorrow. Im at my girls place now. But about dangers of vitamin c I only need to refer to 2 sources.

The 2 books
Vitamin c curing the incurable By Dr Tom Levy
and
Ascorbate By steve hickey.
If you are interested about this there are no better sources of info on mega dosing, fully referenced and written by professionals. The second one can be bought for5 bucks as a e-book Il hook you up with a link if your interested.

In those 2 books its safety is realy shown. Along with the experience of several doctors that have used massive iv dosages for various conditions without ever noticing a harmfull effect.

The things I have noticed on mega dosage that low dosages doesnt do is

Improved well beeing
Improved resistance to disease
Improved joint function
Alot more energy(this I feel when I go above 15grams)
Less soreness

That are the general things and I dont notice any of that on lower dosages.

When it comes to disease I have completely gotten rid of all cold symptons within 1,5 hour with oral mega dosages(40+ grams), I also got rid of a abcess with similar dosage. I had some fever, it was hot to touch and emtremely sore. Within 2 hours it was no longer hot, I had no fever and it didnt hurt nearly as much.

The optimal dosage of c to me is bowel tollerance dosage. Because that seem to be the dosage where most is utilised. Above that and unutilised ascorbic acid gets into the digestive track and cause the dihareea. So the body do something with the c until that dosage that is for sure. Especialy considering a disease raises the tolerance level dramaticly(3-20 as high).

that abstract you posted doesnt say much at all about c...

[Alpha-Male]

that abstract you posted doesnt say much at all about c...

yeah, it touches briefly on some concerns about it, but really, it serves to review the dangers of megadosing ALL vitamins and minerals. awaiting your posts...

AM

[Kärnfysikern]

hmm, okay, well, i know you started this 'lil experiment back in June, but i don't wanna read through all those posts...gimme an update if you don't mind...how have things been going? i mean, what kind of "results" are you contributing to your trials, any? just curious, since, as you know from before, i'm not exactly a proponent of megadosing anything

AM

Hmm I think I summed up my results so far and how I interpret them. The joint health and how I have beaten colds and a abcess is realy what makes me a 100% beliver. My knees where in such piss poor shape that nothing (incase it isnt the sodium ascorbate) short of a miracle could have made them as good as they are today.

when sic and you consume alot of vitamin c you also feel some kind of well beeing. The imidiet effect it has on all symptoms along with extra energy adds upp to a remarkable feeling.

one more thing...i do think there is something to the IV adminstration of ascorbic acid, and would like to mention a study i found that was done on cancer patients, in which the IV adminstration of megadoses, and i mean super megadoses (like those in the Poliquin experiments), were shown to have some sort of toxicity to cancer cells...it's a little long so i'll just post the link...

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/4/423

Thats a very interesting abstract and its good to se there is still some docs with a open mind around. My bet is though that no one will get any serious funds to examine this closer. WAY to much for the medical industry to lose if ascorbate is proven effective. Its interesting that pauling saw those good effects with only 10 grams when it comes to such a serious disease as cancer. I wonder what the effects would have been with 100grams/day.
To mention other sever conditions.
Several docs have sucessfully treated HIV with mega dosages. Making the virus go back into....damn I dont know the english words.. Is dormant state apropriate?? Then there is offcourse polio.

i mean, it seems as though every study i've seen involving "positive" effects of "megadoses" of ascorbic acid, fail to do one thing: they do not qualify whether or not those same benefits can be obtained at lower doses, or so-called "normal" doses of the vitamin...one wouldn't need to follow the same protocol when assessing negative effects of "megadosing", except maybe to pinpoint a limit at which the efficacy of supplementation is maximized and potential side effects are minimized...however, i haven't seen any study, to date, that has succeeded in doing so...

I think the problem is here the question what is a normal dosage? If you go by some experts the estimated ascorbate consumption of stone age man was around 5 grams from plants. All of man and monkies closest relatives all produce huge ammounts of ascorbic acid. A regular pig produces around 10 grams/day and twice as much when sic. I firmly belive that the RDI of 60mg is the biggest joke of the century. It doesnt make any sense at all. The RDI for chimps are over 3grams!!!
On the other hand we have escimo(sp?) and other native people that doesnt get all that much ascorbic acid from diet and still maintain excelent health. But they do eat alot of animal parts that contains alot more of it than the regular meat.

Honestly clasifing vitamin c as a vitamin was almost a bad move. I more look at it as the 4th macronutrient or atleast some kind of semi macro.

I dont belive we will se a study that shows clearly what dosage is optimal. I am not one to buy into conspiracy theories but not even kleeners discovery that it cures polio made the medical community react. If it wasnt for Linus Pauling I wouldnt be suprised if it would be totaly forgotten by now. But apperently not even a twice nobel laureate can get funds to run real studies on this subject. All one can do is review the evidence that exist and while its not conclusive it realy does build a strong case for megadosages and a strong case for gram dosages even when healthy.

Right now all we have to go by is blood levels and bowel tollerance. Most studies done with higher oral dosages fail to take into account the very short halflife of ascorbic acid in the blood, so they fail to continously elevate blood levels and fail to produce results. That makes them draw wrong conclusions aswell like the comon myth that excess is just excreted in the urine without doing any good.

i realize that you feel Vitamin C is the "only" vitamin out there which, at "doses significantly higher than RDA" (is that better than "megadose"?), are not harmful to the body, but that's just not sound reasoning...there are documented examples of too much VitC causing problems in the human body, true, maybe not as significant as some vitamins or minerals, but excess of anything is not good...

Acctualy Im going to do a similar experiment in the future with pantothenic acid in gram dosages. I cant find the links now but a doc in hongkong has treated obese patients with 10 grams of pantothenic acid/day and noticing improved energy and fatloss compared to those not using pantothenic acid. Since its nontoxic and fairly cheap Im curious to what will happen.

Also I would like to se any evidence of any ill effects from megadosing of vitamin c. The abstract you posted just made a claim without any example of it happening nor under what circumstances. All the while you have hundrads of medical practicioners(damn my spelling sux today lol)that use massive dosages for a host of conditions without ever noticing a problem.

The most used argument against oral mega dosages is kidney stones. But kidney stones just can not form in the way they claim. Vitamin c consumption raises oxalate levels and oxalate can form kidney stones. What they dont take into account is the ph level needed for that process and how vitamin c effects ph level. It just cant happen from vitamin c consumption. The second most used argument against its safety is dihareea and stomach discomfort. But nobody suggest oraly going above the dosages that gives those problems. Doing so is pointless.

granted, there are documented benefits to having "higher than RDA" levels of VitC, but IMO, there's a level or threshold if you will, at which the possible harmful effects outweigh the so-called benefits...

yes I totaly agree Im not saying the higher the better. Im saying go to bowel tolerance level and dont go any higher. That is atleast some kind of indication that your consuming more than you need.

that's why i was wondering what kind of actualized "benefits" you felt you were getting from this experiment, and if you TRULY believed that you could not obtain those same benefits with "normal", or even a little above "normal" doses...or better yet, from proper diet/nutrition, which would surely give you adequate amounts of ALL vitamins/minerals...
AM

I think its a dangerous belife to have that food nowdays can cover micronutrient needs. Its fact that the poor soils nowdays produced plants with as little as 1/8 of the mineral and vitamin content it used to have and the situation isnt getting better.
I truly belife that the effects I have seen could not have been duplicated with proper diet since my diet before I started megadosing had such a abundance on(organicly grown aswell)veggies and fruits. If any diet could have worked in the same way, the diet I had back then should have. No doubt in my mind.

When it comes to beating diseases lower dosages is almost useless. Like pissing on a fire. The truly massive dosages(20-300grams(day) is needed for the effects we are looking for.

I have alot of faith in ortomolecular medicin and how to prevent and treat chronic diseases with higher dosages of vitamins. Most know example is niacin and cholesterol. Less known is the importance the rest of the b vitamins play in cholesterol and homocystein control. The water soluable(sp?)vitamins may very well be the medicin todays society is desperatly seeking for to use in cardiovascular disease and possibly cancer aswell.

[Kärnfysikern]

ohh yeah one danger of vitamin c is using mega dosages of vitamin c along with iron supplements. That can cause toxic levels of iron in the body.

Also people that suffer from any condition that increases iron absorption should also stay away from mega dosages of vitamin c unless they have strict controll of there diets.

[Alpha-Male]

well, but in consuming more and more amounts orally, still do not affect plasma levels of the vitamin as the body will metabolize megadoses and keep levels within a range, right? i know in the case of phenylalanine (and other AAs), as i found in studying the effects of aspartame on the body, when normal/healthy individuals ingesting massive amounts of diet soda containing the sweetner, plasma levels remained low no matter what the amount, as the body readily metabolized the nutrient...i'm assuming the same would hold true for vitamins and minerals, no? therefore, it seems that in order to keep plasma levels at higher ranges, one would need to go the IV route, as seen in your Poliquin (sp?) study and the cancer study i posted...

i agree that the RDI values are extremely low, but isn't there a maximum level of oral ingesting of VitC at which your plasma levels will peak, and therefore render any higher doses unnecessary and potentially harmful?

AM

[Kärnfysikern]

The thing is. I notice a difference betwen 40 grams and 60 grams when sic.

But to be honest I dont know how high plasma levels can be elevated oraly and not at what level it peaks. The book ascorbate goes through this properly but I cant for the life of me remember. But consuming 20 grams/day spread out evenly defenetly gives higher blood levels than 5grams/day.

I think its hard to try and extrapolate the bodies ability to metabolise aspartam to vitamins and minerals.

I like catcharts theory the best. He is most concerned about ascorbates ability to act as a free radical scavanger and the "optimal" dosage when thinking like that totaly depends on the ammount of free radicals. Not blood levels.
The bowel tolerance is reached when free radicals are neutralised and uneffected ascorbate raches the digestive track.
This explanation makes the most sense to me considering how dependand bowel tolerance is on severaness of disease.

[Gassy]

I take 15grams a day, for about a year and I feel great, my body just works better. There's a great site curezone.com that has whole vit. C forum. I used to take celebrex, advil, deca , all the OTC supps and went to the chiropracter 3x's a week and still had bad joint pain(arthritis, bursitis, tendonitis). I did a few cleanses, the vit. C and occationally noni juice. I'm now 95% pain free and take no meds, no other joint supps and no Drs. Very nice thread Johan.

[IronFreakX]

ok this is probably my shortest cold ever...I woke up feeling like shit...shooting green stuff outta my nose and mouth eww I know..a fever....well..... I ingested 82 grams of vitamin C , YES...82 GRAMS....the cold? its gone

[Kärnfysikern]

[IronFreakX]

This was my highest number ever...I thot I was gonna get diareahha but damn I got nothing...

whats the highest youve taken?

[Kärnfysikern]

Im not sure. I have lost count the times I have been realy high but I would say no higher than 70 grams. probably around 60. When I go above my bowel tollerance I get bad stomach pain so I take it easy when I get high.

[Jackedinthebox]

Old post, but if there is anyone reading this stuff still, this is exactly how I ended up on dialysis. Don't mess with it. It will catch up with you

[kman]

Old post, but if there is anyone reading this stuff still, this is exactly how I ended up on dialysis. Don't mess with it. It will catch up with you

What????

[Kärnfysikern]

jackinthebox. Did the docs specificly tell you it was the vitamin c? In that case you are the first person in the world.

[IronFreakX]

Old post, but if there is anyone reading this stuff still, this is exactly how I ended up on dialysis. Don't mess with it. It will catch up with you

funny , cuz I had a urine analysis done and its 100% normal , Ill scan the results next time and post them here...in a week or smth....