http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666
Check this link out. Good read, a little different then what I've been hearing for a while.
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http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666
Check this link out. Good read, a little different then what I've been hearing for a while.
i LIKE 2 of the 3 babes there....Yummy
I do agree with the aspirin thing other than that ill stick to what works for me im not gonna keep switching methods every time some1 comes up with a new study what works in the lab is different from what happens in the GYM
Guys i wanna see ur opinions on this.....
That articles is marred with inconsitencies as well as blatent contradictions......Mainly he states that Glycogen replenishment is no the focus of PWO carbs. Yet he still manages to push Biotest Surge, which contains High GI carbs mean to rapidly replenish glycogen....wtf??? He claims that Aminos are catalyst of Protein syntheis while claiming that glycogen replenishment is not important yet still he pushes GI Carbs PWO....T-Nation has some decent reading but I wouldn't trust many of their articles as they are all aimd to sell Biotest products, like Surge. Which by the way can be made at home for half the cost w/ Dex,malto and Whey!
I know its crap and they push supplements just wanted to see how every1 is going to respond if they believe that crap(most of it)
well, i briefly scanned the article, simply cuz it was basically an ad for a supplement, however, i did go directly to the source...the references at the bottom...here is one, found on the American Journal of Physiology--Endocrinology and Metabolism archive:
The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by ~130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 ± 42 mg) than during POST (81 ± 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.
interesting stuff...here's the site if you guys are interested, i think you can find all those studies and then some...much better reads than some b.s. advertisement
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/se...me=&firstpage=
here's an abstract of one of the sources they cited...
An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise
Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch and Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, Texas 77550
This study was designed to determine the response of muscle protein to the bolus ingestion of a drink containing essential amino acids and carbohydrate after resistance exercise. Six subjects (3 men, 3 women) randomly consumed a treatment drink (6 g essential amino acids, 35 g sucrose) or a flavored placebo drink 1 h or 3 h after a bout of resistance exercise on two separate occasions. We used a three-compartment model for determination of leg muscle protein kinetics. The model involves the infusion of ring-2H5-phenylalanine, femoral arterial and venous blood sampling, and muscle biopsies. Phenylalanine net balance and muscle protein synthesis were significantly increased above the predrink and corresponding placebo value (P < 0.05) when the drink was taken 1 or 3 h after exercise but not when the placebo was ingested at 1 or 3 h. The response to the amino acid-carbohydrate drink produced similar anabolic responses at 1 and 3 h. Muscle protein breakdown did not change in response to the drink. We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise.
yeah, but, they didnt measure the response of a drink ingested IMMEDIATELY after a workout, and no study i found did so, so there's really nothing to compare it to, ya know? i mean, of course synthesis would increase anytime after a workout with a drink, but as far as how much compared to when???
From the abstacts that I have read glycogen sythesis does not accelerate protein sythesis, I'll try to find them and post them up. However the one good point that the Top 10 article makes is that protein sythesis peaks 24-36 hours post work out!
i think i found it for you:
Leg glucose and protein metabolism during an acute bout of resistance exercise in humans
William J. Durham, Sharon L. Miller, Catherine W. Yeckel, David L. Chinkes, Kevin D. Tipton, Blake B. Rasmussen, and Robert R. Wolfe
Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Hospital, Galveston, and Departments of Surgery and Radiology, and Medical Branch, University of Texas, Galveston, Texas 77550
Submitted 18 June 2003 ; accepted in final form 7 June 2004
The present study investigated the responses of leg glucose and protein metabolism during an acute bout of resistance exercise. Seven subjects (5 men, 2 women) were studied at rest and during a strenuous lower body resistance exercise regimen consisting of 8 sets of 10 repetitions of leg press at 75% 1 repetition maximum and 8 sets of 8 repetitions of knee extensions at 80% 1 repetition maximum. L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine was infused throughout the study for measurement of phenylalanine rates of appearance, disappearance, protein synthesis, and protein breakdown across the leg. Femoral arterial and venous blood samples were collected at rest and during exercise for determination of leg blood flow, concentrations of glucose, lactate, alanine, glutamine, glutamate, leucine, and phenylalanine, and phenylalanine enrichments. Muscle biopsies were obtained at rest and immediately after exercise. Leg blood flow was nearly three times (P < 0.009) higher and glucose uptake more than five times higher (P = 0.009) during exercise than at rest. Leg lactate release was 86 times higher than rest during the exercise bout. Although whole body phenylalanine rate of appearance, an indicator of whole body protein breakdown, was reduced during exercise; leg phenylalanine rate of appearance, rate of disappearance, protein synthesis, and protein breakdown did not change. Arterial and venous alanine concentrations and glutamate uptake were significantly higher during exercise than at rest. We conclude that lower body resistance exercise potently stimulates leg glucose uptake and lactate release. In addition, muscle protein synthesis is not elevated during a bout of resistance exercise
Here's what I was looking for:
Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6
The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.
MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.
Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.
It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.
Basically stating that 24 hours post exercise is when Muscle Protein Synthesis is at its highest point. Kinda makes you wonder if replenishing glycogen rapidly has any affect at all, considering that you are at your peak in terms of muscle repair 24 hours later!
I was curious of other opinions. The article didn't seem like an advertisement but it certainly did try and push 1 or 2 products, that seemed a little weak.
The thing about nutrition and sports science is that it's relatively new so some methods we follow as mantra could change. I'm not pushing this article as the new way to go but things do change and if these statements are followed with a few studies/references, I would be tempted to try and adjust things for the good of furthering my progress.
Remember how many years people were saying "grape juice with creatine or it's useless". We all now realize that was a false statement, but for a long time people listened. I try and keep an open mind if there are references and studies, still not sold on the whole thing but time will tell.
i dont see the need for opinions really, that article cited every study it used as the basis for its claims...simply reference those (can easily be done online) and the proof will be right in front of your eyes...and dont be fooled, that was TOTALLY an ad
I agree totally and ad filled with nothing but contridicting statements, however I think that timtim makes a good point, the article should serve as a basis for doing further reasearch into methods the methods that are currently used and accepted by the vast majority of bodybuilders. For example I must admit I am intrigued by the argument that Low GI carbohydrates can be used post workout. I currently use Dextrose and it has been working so no complaints there. But there was a thread in here a while back as well as a few other that I've read on other boards that advocated to use of Oatmeal PWO. This is simply something that is contridicatory to popular belief. However with my previous post it may make a bit of sense, regardless its something that I will continue to look into.
I havent read the posts in this thread and just the begining of the article. I stoped after he claims carbs are not neccesary. I belive its not the glycogen replenishment that is important it is the insulin secretion created by the carb that is important since insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body. The insulin spike pwo is for sure a important part of growing
I agree that insulin is important however I have recently come across a few stuides that say Muscle Glycogen Synthesis does not require insulin, this phase lasts 30-60 minutes. Afterwards, insulin is most def needed.
muscle glycogen syntehsis isnt the important thing here however imo. its the anabolic action of insulin(by what mechanism that works I dont know sorry to say but Im assuming it effects nitrogen retention positivly and it for sure increase shuttling of aminoacids into the muscle cells).
post 'em...
The Metabolic Responses to High Carbohydrate Meals with Different Glycemic Indices Consumed During Recovery from Prolonged Strenuous Exercise
Emma Stevenson; Clyde Williams; Helen Biscoe
Abstract
This study investigated the metabolic responses to high glycemic index (HGI) or low glycemic index (LGI) meals consumed during recovery from prolonged exercise. Eight male, trained athletes undertook 2 trials. Following an overnight fast, subjects completed a 90-min run at 70% VO2max. Meals were provided 30 min and 2 h following cessation of exercise. The plasma glucose responses to both meals were greater in the HGI trial compared to the LGI trial (P < 0.05). Following breakfast, there were no differences in the serum insulin concentrations between the trials; however, following lunch, concentrations were higher in the HGI trial compared to the LGI trial (P < 0.05). This suggests that the glycemic index of the carbohydrates consumed during the immediate post-exercise period might not be important as long as sufficient carbohydrate is consumed. The high insulin concentrations following a HGI meal later in the recovery period could facilitate further muscle glycogen resynthesis.
Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.
Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.
Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.
Ivy JL, Kuo CH.
Department of Kinesiology, The University of Texas at Austin, 78712, USA.
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.
There are a few studies that may prove to be very interesting indeed!
I wonder if the ammount of carbs in the LGI and HGI meals where equal. Otherwise the study means nothing since a big amount of low glycemic food can create a bigger insulin responce then a small amount of high glycemic food.
Going by glycemic load(GI*grams of carbs/100=ammount of dextrose needed to produce the same insulin response) is probably the most important factor.
So in other words one could consume 170grams of brown rice to equal 100g of dextrose in insulin response. I wonder if I calculated that right hmm. I think so atleast.
If you consumed more of a LGI carb it would not ilicit the insulin reponse as a high GI carb. Because of fiber and so on the lower GI carb would not digest as rapidly and therefor would not cause as drastic a spike in insulin, i do believe that over time though yes the same amount of insulin would be produced.
do a search for glycemic load Giantz it does infact work as I said if the articles I have read isnt totaly wrong.
yeah, do u think it makes a difference that those guys ran for an hour and a half first thing in the morning on an empty stomach? how would the results differ you think, say after a 45-60min weight-training bout, at around 6pm with a few meals in the tank? just curious...
I might be wrong though since i havent read all that much about it. Will try to find a good article
funny now I find all kinds of different ways to calculate GL not only the way I posted wtf :confused:
I certainly think that running at that intensity for 90 mins would be very catabolic and ideal. But I would also go as far to say that it was indeed glycogen depleting, in that sense it may have some correlations to weight training.Quote:
yeah, do u think it makes a difference that those guys ran for an hour and a half first thing in the morning on an empty stomach? how the results differ you think, say after a 45-60min weight-training bout, at around 6pm with a few meals in the tank? just curious...
Pauling institute comes to the resque. As far as I know I have never read anything in error on that page. Best orthomedicin site there is.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...s/gigl.html#glQuote:
Glycemic Load
The glycemic index compares the potential of foods containing the same amount of carbohydrate to raise blood glucose. However, the amount of carbohydrate consumed also affects blood glucose levels and insulin responses. The glycemic load of a food is calculated by multiplying the glycemic index by the amount of carbohydrate in grams provided by a food and dividing the total by 100. In essence, each unit of the glycemic load represents the equivalent blood glucose-raising effect of 1 gram of pure glucose or white bread (1). The concept of glycemic load was developed by scientists to simultaneously describe the quality (glycemic index) and quantity of carbohydrate in a meal or diet.
since the gi in a food is calculated with the fibers and other gi lowering nutritiens included(fat,protein, ph level)it means the GL value is correct and accurate.
Johan, Lets not get too crazy here I know what you are trying to say. Lets just for arguments sake say that the same amounts of carbs were consumed after your workout. I argument I can see here in people that advocate the use of Low GI carbs is that if we have a period of muscle glycogen replenishment that is insulin independent we can consume a Low GI carb PWO because by the time the second phase kicks in, you should be getting a substantial insulin response from what you ate. Add that to that fact that you are extremely insulin sensitive after weight training, I don't believe it would take much to illicit and insulin response, hack even protein causes an insulin response.
another reason for carbs. No carbs=lower immune defence
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...95&query_hl=11
Quote:
Influence of carbohydrate on the immune response to intensive, prolonged exercise.
Nieman DC.
Department of Health, Leisure, and Exercise Science, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC 28608, USA.
Many components of the immune system exhibit change after prolonged, heavy exertion, indicating that the immune system is suppressed and stressed, albeit transiently, following prolonged endurance exercise. Whether these immune changes compromise host protection against viruses is still undetermined. Various attempts have been made to alter the changes in immunity following heavy exertion through nutritional or chemical means, with the most impressive results reported thus far in the carbohydrate supplementation studies. Earlier research had established that a reduction in blood glucose levels is linked to hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal activation, an increased release of adrenocorticotrophic hormone and cortisol, increased plasma growth hormone, decreased insulin, and a variable effect on blood epinephrine levels. Data from two studies of 30 marathon runners and 10 triathletes suggest that carbohydrate compared to placebo ingestion is associated with higher plasma glucose levels, an attenuated cortisol and growth hormone response, fewer perturbations in blood immune cell counts, lower granulocyte and monocyte phagocytosis and oxidative burst activity, and a diminished pro- and anti-inflammatory cytokine response. Overall, the hormonal and immune responses to carbohydrate compared to placebo ingestion suggest that physiologic stress is diminished, although clinical significance awaits further research.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial
PMID: 9644095 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
well, i was kinda leaning toward the running being MORE depleting than a workout, and therefore causing the responses to somehow be diff. than the example i gave, i dunno, just guessin' reallyQuote:
Originally Posted by Giantz11
By those calculations 150g of Oats would have a GL of 105 (70*150/100) and Dextrose at 100g would have a GL of 100 (100*100/100). Not much difference there!
My point is that glycogen replenishment is not the important factor. Insulins anabolic effects(wich go far beyond its ability to increase glycogen replenishemnt) is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantz11
In essence you could shot yourself with slin and get the same anabolic effect(without consuming carbs)as if eating a shitload of dextrose. Offcourse this could not be studied since the test subject would die of hypoglycemia. But my theory is that insulins anabolic actions are not dependant on insulin.
the low gi proponents dont take into account the anabolic effect high gi food have because of its ability to create a high insuline curve. 100grams of high gi food will create more insulin then 10grams of low gi food. Less insulin=less anabolic activities in the muscles
The article doesn't say carbs are not important PWO. He says that replenishing glycogen stores is done regardless of your PWO shake.
yes that is what suprised me. this could be easily verified however if someone was willing to experiment and has a glucometer(this is the name right)aviable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantz11
but the point is. you can get more anabolic activity out of less ammount of carbs when using high gi carbs, that means less carbs aviable to be stored as fat while creating the same anabolic response.
in essence I aggre with him that glycogen replenishment is not important. But one have to keep in mind that the "side effect" of creating a insulin cure is glycogen replenishment. They go hand in hand so his argument is bascily pointless..Quote:
Originally Posted by 4U2NV
Either he thinks carbs are not important for muscle building and that is obviously wrong.(becasue of the insulin not the glycogen replenishment)
OR
He agres that insulin is needed for optimal muscle growth while saying that glycogen replenishemtn in itself is not the thing that makes the muscle grow. but it doesnt seem like he even considers insulin and even if he did that would be a self defeating argument since there is no way to create a sufficient insulin curve without carbs(if not injecting insulin without consuming carbs=hypoglycemia=possible death or consuming ENORMOUS ammounts of protein).
I think he has gotten things confused(remember I havent read the whole thing since I stoped when he claims carbs are not essential for pwo nutrition).
I totally agree that glycogen replensihment is not the goal here at all. In fact 30-60 minutes post work out does not require it. However what we are concerned with is Protein Synthesis which peaks 24 hours post exercise, so why jack insulin up sky high pwo when it does nothing to increase the rate of protein synthesis?