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  1. #1
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    Fat

    why do low carb diets?.....Doesnt fat has almost the same molecular structure (rite?) as fat in the body so it gets stored as BF?? if some1 doesnt take ne High GI carbs cept PWO...either an isolate shake with dex or lentils/chicken and honey....

    why keep the carbs low then? shouldnt the fat be low and the carbs be medium???

    kinda figured this out from the ISSA course.....

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    the theory I recon is that when eating lots of fat the body gets good at burning fat and makes fat the prefered energy source so it keeps on burning fat all day even when dietary fat isnt aviable. In other words tapping into fat stores.

    The downsides with carbs is the insulin release that blunts fat burning,

    I think it all comes down to insulin sensitivity. Those with high insulin sensitivity probably cuts better or equaly good at medium high carbs. Those with shitty insulin sensitivity(90% of those with weight problems)cut better on high fat diets since it boosts insulin sensitivity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    the theory I recon is that when eating lots of fat the body gets good at burning fat and makes fat the prefered energy source so it keeps on burning fat all day even when dietary fat isnt aviable. In other words tapping into fat stores.

    The downsides with carbs is the insulin release that blunts fat burning,

    I think it all comes down to insulin sensitivity. Those with high insulin sensitivity probably cuts better or equaly good at medium high carbs. Those with shitty insulin sensitivity(90% of those with weight problems)cut better on high fat diets since it boosts insulin sensitivity.
    wut if the carbs were low GI..spybeans , lentils...while using cocoa powder , cinnamon , caffiene...the last 3 have a + effect on stabalizing blood sugar....

    taking in consideration that the soybeans and lentils are both below 20 on the GI index!!!! and the load is below 5!!!!!!

    Esp if the carbs are being used thru-running , rope climbing,hiking etc....

    I think for the PURE BBER(nothing but Bodybuilding and 65-75% MHR cardio)

    that diet is good....but for Powerlifting , with other activities....I think that Marco break down is not good even when cutting(again not for the BBER)......

    So im thinking high-mod pro , mod carbs , low fat

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    I think carbs will always be the body prefered fuel source, as the brian and other organs need glucose to work. Whether they get the gluocse via diet or via gluconeogenesis they still need it. Lowering your carb intake forces one to up their fat intake so its basically substituting one for the other. Your body will not tap into fat stores if you have ingested fat circulating. Which is what happens when you increase fats and decrease carbs. You do increase lipolysis but lipolysis is only the releasing of FFA's into the bloodsteam. That does not mean the will be oxidized, the FFA's that are not oxidized will just go right back to where it came from, adipose tissue.

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    giantz but the releases FFA's are less likely to get stored when less insulin is present right??

    I am also a belive in carb cutting beeing a good way to cut for those with good insulin sensitivity. Most of all because I think it keeps the overall metabolism higher then a fat diet usualy does. I personaly feel it on my bodytemp.

    Also where in my body is "the brian" located

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    Well you certainly wouldn't want a high level of FFA's ciculating with a a high level of insulin , that is for sure. We discussed this before, its basically all up to the person. If you can cut carbs and do Pro/fat all day, that's just. If you personally need some carbs to help you go along then do that as well. Make sure they are Low Gi and insulin is steady all day. What most people don't realize is that a Pro/Fat meal does stimulate and insulin response as well:

    "There are some instances, however, where a food has a low glycemic value but a high insulin index value. This applies to dairy foods and to some highly palatable energy-dense "indulgence foods." Some foods (such as meat, fish, and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin."

    The New Glucose Revolution

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    I think carbs will always be the body prefered fuel source, as the brian and other organs need glucose to work. Whether they get the gluocse via diet or via gluconeogenesis they still need it. Lowering your carb intake forces one to up their fat intake so its basically substituting one for the other. Your body will not tap into fat stores if you have ingested fat circulating. Which is what happens when you increase fats and decrease carbs. You do increase lipolysis but lipolysis is only the releasing of FFA's into the bloodsteam. That does not mean the will be oxidized, the FFA's that are not oxidized will just go right back to where it came from, adipose tissue.
    I know that I am not the resident diet expert but I have done extensive reading over the years and agree 100% with Giantz11.

    Carbs will always be the preferred source of energy as ATP is formed the fastest and easiest from carbs and the brain as well as for anaerobic activity carbs are REQUIRED as a fuel source. However, like anything eaten in ecess of whats needed, if its not stored as glycogen it will be stored as fat. And like you suggested, sticking with the low GI carbs will result in slower insulin release and stabilize your blood sugars so they are burned more slowly.

    Im a believer in low fat. I try to only consume fat in the form of EFA's I get only about 20% of my diet from fat. The body is extremely efficient and if you consume any more than you need for essential bodily processes, it will get stored as fat. Fat is very efficient at storing itself and not as efficient when it comes to being converted to ATP.

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    I know that I am not the resident diet expert but I have done extensive reading over the years and agree 100% with Giantz11.

    Carbs will always be the preferred source of energy as ATP is formed the fastest and easiest from carbs and the brain as well as for anaerobic activity carbs are REQUIRED as a fuel source. However, like anything eaten in ecess of whats needed, if its not stored as glycogen it will be stored as fat. And like you suggested, sticking with the low GI carbs will result in slower insulin release and stabilize your blood sugars so they are burned more slowly.

    Im a believer in low fat. I try to only consume fat in the form of EFA's I get only about 20% of my diet from fat. The body is extremely efficient and if you consume any more than you need for essential bodily processes, it will get stored as fat. Fat is very efficient at storing itself and not as efficient when it comes to being converted to ATP.
    Very Nicely put!!

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    yupp. It all comes down to how well a certain individual responds to carbs. IMO starting a diet very low on carbs might be a good way to bump up insulin sensitivity alot and then maby reintroduce them later on when the body can handel them in a much better way.

    Also I think many fail on the carb rich diets because they simply dont use low enough gi foods. Most consider pasta and rice beeing low gi but imo thats medium gi. Low gi is beans, lentils and other leugemes(sp?) imo. Also not many lowers gi with added fibers, vinegar and stuff like that.

    one good example of super low gi is nuts. Most nuts have a carb content of 10-25% and still no one cares about them because the gi is so ridicilously low that they dont make a difference. If going by glycemic load one would have to eat pounds of nuts to compere to the insulin release of a pwo shake.

    Btw giantz got any info on insulin release from protein and fats? I know they release insulin but never found any indepth info on how much.

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    also correct me if Im wrong but isnt it only a miniscule ammount of consumed carbs that can acctualy turn into fat? Something like 10% tops is the figures I have read.

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    Also the fiber rich lentils and so on result in a greater satiety.....

    Johan that excerpt was from The New Glucose Revolution
    by Jennie Brand-Miller, Thomas M.S. Wolever, Kaye Foster-Powell, Stephen Colagiuri. Can't remember if it has a graph of the insulin reponse, I'll check it out and try to post it if I can.

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    also correct me if Im wrong but isnt it only a miniscule ammount of consumed carbs that can acctualy turn into fat? Something like 10% tops is the figures I have read.
    "The conversion of glucose to fatty acids appears to occur only if energy intake exceeds energy expenditure"

    - Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism 2004 ed

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    do you think micro content has any effect on fullness and apetite? I noticed that since I started adding more foods rich in micros(lentils, sprouts ect) I feel fuller all the time. It might be because of the fiber content but I feel fuller then if I where to eat another food and add the fiber contet of it as seeds. So it cant only be fibers.

    Do you think the body can induce more hunger if the micro needs isnt satisifed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    "The conversion of glucose to fatty acids appears to occur only if energy intake exceeds energy expenditure"

    - Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism 2004 ed

    that answeres that and no one here is at a kcal + when cutting that is for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    also correct me if Im wrong but isnt it only a miniscule ammount of consumed carbs that can acctualy turn into fat? Something like 10% tops is the figures I have read.
    The amount of carbs consumed that is stored as fat totally depends on your daily energy requirements. The bottom line is, no matter who you are, if you eat more of ANYTHING (carbs, protein, fat) than your body needs, it will be stored as fat. I dont think I have ever heard of an exact number being put on the percentage stored.

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    Yup!

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    damn, I need to learn to type faster

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    Quote Originally Posted by SexyKitty
    The amount of carbs consumed that is stored as fat totally depends on your daily energy requirements. The bottom line is, no matter who you are, if you eat more of ANYTHING (carbs, protein, fat) than your body needs, it will be stored as fat. I dont think I have ever heard of an exact number being put on the percentage stored.

    the 10% figure I got from a gi control book by a swedish nutritionist if I remember right and just wanted to se if there is any thruth to it. He is brilliant when it comes to gi. Fredrik Paulun is the gezeers name.

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    I think adding a fiber rich, micro rich food into your diet such as veggies etc...Can only help....there are most likely benfits that we cannot explain when eating whole grains, veggies, unprocessed foods etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    the 10% figure I got from a gi control book by a swedish nutritionist if I remember right and just wanted to se if there is any thruth to it. He is brilliant when it comes to gi. Fredrik Paulun is the gezeers name.
    You really cant put a number on it. If your body needs it period, it will use it or store it as glycogen for future energy requirements. If glycogen stores are full, it stores is at as fat. Obviously during cutting this would not happen as we are in a negative kcal state so what were consuming is hopefully being used, not stored.

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    damn, I need to learn to type faster
    Na, cause then you'd be a computer nerd like me and Johan

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    approx 58% of protein can turn into glucose neway.....but i dont need all the fat... I aint gonna starve for a couple of month in a cold cave...I am 99.99% that a famine will not occur...and i will be phsycially active (running , hiking , climbing ropes , etc...)so i dont need all that fat (just 20-30%MAX) just lotsa of protein and very low GI/LOAD carbs (lentils , soybeans , sometimes whitbeans , chickpeas...) with cinnamon , cocoa powder and caffiene....

    Just gonna have a big ass serving of homemade natural PB...only using peanuts..and stevia and hopefully a piece of juicy steak.....then ill start with the low fat thing 2morrow....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    I think adding a fiber rich, micro rich food into your diet such as veggies etc...Can only help....there are most likely benfits that we cannot explain when eating whole grains, veggies, unprocessed foods etc...
    I'm trying to find a reference for this, I read that in addition to the benefits of fibre on the digestive tract, preventing colon cancer and increasing satiety, the absorption and digestion of fibre requires more energy than other carbs, therefore more kcals burned when eating fibre rich foods. is this common knowledge? I never knew this before.

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    most probalby. especialy considering we are finding now stuff in those foods daily that has advantages.

    To bad more and more is getting ruined with artificial fertelizers, pesticides and genetic enginering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SexyKitty
    I'm trying to find a reference for this, I read that in addition to the benefits of fibre on the digestive tract, preventing colon cancer and increasing satiety, the absorption and digestion of fibre requires more energy than other carbs, therefore more kcals burned when eating fibre rich foods. is this common knowledge? I never knew this before.

    I dont know about that but I do know fibers absorbes some of the fat in your food and dietary cholesterol. Il look around. But most fibers dont get digested as far as I know they just go straight through you

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    fiber (i think) stops a small amount of fat &protein from being absorbed...not sure tho...some fiber expands 30 times in the stomach so i think it would require mor kcal yeah...

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    I dont know about that but I do know fibers absorbes some of the fat in your food and dietary cholesterol. Il look around. But most fibers dont get digested as far as I know they just go straight through you
    Not the digestions and absorption of the fibre itself, but the digestion and abosorption of high fibre foods require more energy. The article I read only had a couple of references but they were not pertaining to this statement.

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    ohh now I se your point. Separating the nutrients from the fibers would require more energy then getting nutrients from a low fiber meal. That makes alot of sense.

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    dubble post

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    Quote Originally Posted by SexyKitty
    Not the digestions and absorption of the fibre itself, but the digestion and abosorption of high fibre foods require more energy. The article I read only had a couple of references but they were not pertaining to this statement.
    Anyways, its just another argument in favor of eating high fibre, low gi carbs whether maintaining OR cutting. Going back to IronFreaX's original question, theres more benefits to eating this type of carbs than the fad high fat, no carb diets.

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    thats wut i am doing...and will continue doing...after the PB and steak...

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    the health benifits of those kinds of food is sure a good reason to include them. But its tricky to know for sure if they will benifit fat loss more then if they wherent included at all.

    Looking at all of swoles clients is a good evidence that low carb diets works amazingly well.

    I eat plenty of if on workout days and none at all on rest days and find that its a decent balance giving me 3-4 days of good ammounts of fruit, lentils, beans and brown rice while having 3 days I dont get any of it.

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    here is a good read(even though its about diabetics I think it has aplications for all)

    Effects of a low-fat diet compared with those of a high-monounsaturated fat diet on body weight, plasma lipids and lipoproteins, and glycemic control in type 2 diabetes.

    Gerhard GT, Ahmann A, Meeuws K, McMurry MP, Duell PB, Connor WE.

    Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Clinical Nutrition, Oregon Health & Science University, 3181 SW Sam Jackson Park Road, Portland, OR 97239-3098, USA.

    BACKGROUND: An important therapeutic goal for patients with type 2 diabetes is weight loss, which improves metabolic abnormalities. Ad libitum low-fat diets cause weight loss in nondiabetic populations. Compared with diets higher in monounsaturated fat, however, eucaloric low-fat diets may increase plasma triacylglycerol concentrations and worsen glycemic control in persons with type 2 diabetes. OBJECTIVE: We investigated whether, in type 2 diabetes patients, an ad libitum low-fat diet would cause greater weight loss than would a high-monounsaturated fat diet and would do this without increasing plasma triacylglycerol concentrations or worsening glycemic control. DESIGN: Eleven patients with type 2 diabetes were randomly assigned to receive an ad libitum low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet or a high-monounsaturated fat diet, each for 6 wk. The diets offered contained 125% of the estimated energy requirement to allow self-selection of food quantity. The response variables were body weight; fasting plasma lipid, lipoprotein, glucose, glycated hemoglobin A(1c), and fructosamine concentrations; insulin sensitivity; and glucose disposal. RESULTS: Body weight decreased significantly (1.53 kg; P < 0.001) only with the low-fat diet. Plasma total, LDL-, and HDL-cholesterol concentrations tended to decrease during both diets. There were no interaction effects between diet and the lipid profile response over time. Plasma triacylglycerol concentrations, glycemic control, and insulin sensitivity did not differ significantly between the 2 diets. CONCLUSION: Contrary to expectations, the ad libitum, low-fat, high-fiber diet promoted weight loss in patients with type 2 diabetes without causing unfavorable alterations in plasma lipids or glycemic control.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

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    this is suprising and interesting

    No difference in body weight decrease between a low-glycemic-index and a high-glycemic-index diet but reduced LDL cholesterol after 10-wk ad libitum intake of the low-glycemic-index diet.

    Sloth B, Krog-Mikkelsen I, Flint A, Tetens I, Bjorck I, Vinoy S, Elmstahl H, Astrup A, Lang V, Raben A.

    Department of Human Nutrition, Centre for Advanced Food Studies, The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, 30 Rolighedsvej, DK-1958 Frederiksberg C, Denmark. bsl@kvl.dk

    BACKGROUND: The role of glycemic index (GI) in appetite and body-weight regulation is still not clear. OBJECTIVE: The objective of the study was to investigate the long-term effects of a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet with either low glycemic index (LGI) or high glycemic index (HGI) on ad libitum energy intake, body weight, and composition, as well as on risk factors for type 2 diabetes and ischemic heart disease in overweight healthy subjects. DESIGN: The study was a 10-wk parallel, randomized, intervention trial with 2 matched groups. The LGI or HGI test foods, given as replacements for the subjects' usual carbohydrate-rich foods, were equal in total energy, energy density, dietary fiber, and macronutrient composition. Subjects were 45 (LGI diet: n = 23; HGI diet: n = 22) healthy overweight [body mass index (in kg/m(2)): 27.6 +/- 0.2] women aged 20-40 y. RESULTS: Energy intake, mean (+/- SEM) body weight (LGI diet: -1.9 +/- 0.5 kg; HGI diet: -1.3 +/- 0.3 kg), and fat mass (LGI diet: -1.0 +/- 0.4 kg; HGI diet: -0.4 +/- 0.3 kg) decreased over time, but the differences between groups were not significant. No significant differences were observed between groups in fasting serum insulin , homeostasis model assessment for relative insulin resistance, homeostasis model assessment for beta cell function, triacylglycerol, nonesterified fatty acids, or HDL cholesterol. However, a 10% decrease in LDL cholesterol (P < 0.05) and a tendency to a larger decrease in total cholesterol (P = 0.06) were observed with consumption of the LGI diet as compared with the HGI diet. CONCLUSIONS: This study does not support the contention that low-fat LGI diets are more beneficial than HGI diets with regard to appetite or body-weight regulation as evaluated over 10 wk. However, it confirms previous findings of a beneficial effect of LGI diets on risk factors for ischemic heart disease.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

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    so it seems its no the gi but the fiber of the foods that is the most important factor since gi didnt make a difference.

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    Dont they take slin shots??

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    i think there is both insulin and dietary controled type 2 diabetes. But you are right they fail to mention if they used slin or not.

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    those r type 2 ...i wouldnt know...some choose the ez way and take shots...some eat rite and exercise to control it...since its not stated i think they didnt not sure tho...

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    now this study has me drooling. Low fat high fiber diet increases igf-1!!!

    http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/13/6/1086

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    the health benifits of those kinds of food is sure a good reason to include them. But its tricky to know for sure if they will benifit fat loss more then if they wherent included at all.

    Looking at all of swoles clients is a good evidence that low carb diets works amazingly well.

    I eat plenty of if on workout days and none at all on rest days and find that its a decent balance giving me 3-4 days of good ammounts of fruit, lentils, beans and brown rice while having 3 days I dont get any of it.
    No you're right, low carb is ideal for cutting, this is very different however than NO carb diets like Atkins which put the body into a ketogenic state. I dont care what anyone says, producing ketones is not healthy and as you already know when training carbs are necessary for for energy to spare the use of Protein for energy and let protein do what it is suppose to do.

    What I am arguing is that f I'm cutting carbs, I wouldnt necessarily increase my fat intake but I would increase my intake of LEAN protein. It's much too easy for the body to store consumed fat as body fat than it is to store protein as body fat, it has to work harder to do the latter

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