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  1. #1
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
    Kärnfysikern is offline Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
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    a few nutrition questions

    The more I read about nutrition the less I realise that I know

    Anyway heres my questions

    1. The amino acid pool. So we all have that pool of free flowing aminoacids about 100grams. Why is the pwo nutrition(atleast the protein in it) then so crucial, I mean the aminoacids from whey will only add to the pool, why cant the body pull the required amin acids straight from the pool. What is the need for the imidiet boost from the whey? And for that matter since protein has to reach the intestines before getting absorbed(except some peptiedes I recon)how long does it take before a whey shake starts to adds amino acids into the pool?

    How many minutes/hours after a big whey shake is the amino acids in the pool at a peak value? Wouldnt it be better to consume the whey shake during the workout so the aminoacids is aviable right away after the workout? Or zip on a whey shake through the workout so the pool is elevated all the time?

    2. Protein quality. Why is protein quality seen as SO important. Isnt this hugely overrated considering the amino acids we get from all the dead epithel(sp?)cells and other endogenous protein sourced that add protein to the dietary protein in our intestines. That along with the amino acid pool to me sounds like it would balance out the amino acid profile of any food aslong as the food intake over bigger time periods is of enough variety?

    3. If no dietary energy is given to the body. Will the body prefer releasing triglycerides from fat deposits or use the amino acid pool for energy and catabolise muscle tissue? I know both are used but why does the body prefer to use the fat as a source of energy?

    4. When the body uses fat as energy and some aminoacids ketones is formed because of a abundance(the citric acid cycle can no longer us it all) of acetyl-CoA. How would one go about making the citric acid cycle more effective so the formation of ketones is prevented while increasing fat metabolism? Only suggestions I know is the korean doctor that claims mega dosages of pantothenic acid will have that effect but havent read the study only abstract.

    Nutrition is fascinating, Im gonna have to take a few classes in it as soon as possible.

  2. #2
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    I will attempt to try and answer these questions, lol!

    1. Protein synthesis is not the bodies primary concern, Post Workout. Glycogen relplenishment is. Protein synthesis peaks at about 24hr post exercise and goes baseline about 36hr afterwards. So in essence you are using your pool of aminos, just not Post Workout. Aminos are the substrates that signal protein synthesis, so you need them post workout, however as said before the peak doesn't come till much later. If you read some studies it was shown that there was minimal difference between Whey and Casein used Post Workout (I will post it later) so you can see speed of digestion really doesn't make that much of a difference.

    I think it is wise to have Aminos, before during and after your workout, you sre then providing the correct signals and providing the body what it needs at all times. I use a BCAA drink for before and during workouts. And also take some right after.

    2. I think you are right one here, as long as one is getting enough total protein, then you will be covered. Over time you should have enough of all the essntial aminos plus the non-essentials as well. I guess people state protein quality for the simple reason, why not get the most out of your protein intake. So you don't have to consume even more just to make sure you have the proper profile of aminos.

    3. In the fasted state the body will primarily rely upon fat first. Fat is the prefered energy source because it is energy dense. Containing 9 cal per gram as opposed to 4. However after a while, your body will simply not just use fat, as it will want/need to conserve it for further starvation.

    4. You are on your own with this one!

  3. #3
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    Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.
    Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.

    Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu

    PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. RESULTS: Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%). CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    I will attempt to try and answer these questions, lol!

    1. Protein synthesis is not the bodies primary concern, Post Workout. Glycogen relplenishment is. Protein synthesis peaks at about 24hr post exercise and goes baseline about 36hr afterwards. So in essence you are using your pool of aminos, just not Post Workout. Aminos are the substrates that signal protein synthesis, so you need them post workout, however as said before the peak doesn't come till much later. If you read some studies it was shown that there was minimal difference between Whey and Casein used Post Workout (I will post it later) so you can see speed of digestion really doesn't make that much of a difference.

    I think it is wise to have Aminos, before during and after your workout, you sre then providing the correct signals and providing the body what it needs at all times. I use a BCAA drink for before and during workouts. And also take some right after.
    Now this all makes sense. To bad bcaa is so damn expensive otherwise I would use it. Will space out my pwo whey and instead use 20g pre workout, 20g during workout and 20g post workout. But all the carbs post workout as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    2. I think you are right one here, as long as one is getting enough total protein, then you will be covered. Over time you should have enough of all the essntial aminos plus the non-essentials as well. I guess people state protein quality for the simple reason, why not get the most out of your protein intake. So you don't have to consume even more just to make sure you have the proper profile of aminos.
    ¨

    I thought so. This is the end to all the crap about soy protein beeing so "bad". Anyway leugeme protein combined with hmm I think it was oat protein becomes as good as meat protein.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    3. In the fasted state the body will primarily rely upon fat first. Fat is the prefered energy source because it is energy dense. Containing 9 cal per gram as opposed to 4. However after a while, your body will simply not just use fat, as it will want/need to conserve it for further starvation.
    ¨

    Just curious to why the body pics fat as the main source. I wonder what mechanism is at play here. I assume that the lower bf% is the more protein will be catabolised to save up on the precious little fat left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    4. You are on your own with this one!
    Do you know if supplemental pyruvate can enter into the citric acid cycle? If it could then that would be the solution since ketotis starts when there isnt enough carbs to produce the pyruvate. Pyruvate beeing needed to use the Acetyl CoA in the cycle. But I remembere reading somewhere A LONG time ago that dietary pyruvate never reaches the mitochondrias(sp?)?

    thanks for the reply bro and the studie was cool, I remember reading it a couple of months ago but never payed any attention to it back then.

  5. #5
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    I do remember the whole pyruvate thing, and it makes sense at least from a physiological standpoint. I just don't think it ever panned in the real world. I personally think that one of your best bets for helping making the FFA oxidation process more efficient is to supplement ALCAR. Providing the body with the amino nessisary to transport FFA's to the mitochondria, IMO can be of great benefit.

  6. #6
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    tell me more about ALCAR? Never heard of it before?

    I am digging on medline now and finding conflicting studies on puryvtae. This one sounds half decent atleast

    Inhibition of regain in body weight and fat with addition of 3-carbon compounds to the diet with hyperenergetic refeeding after weight reduction.

    Stanko RT, Arch JE.

    Department of Medicine, Montefiore University Hospital, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, PA 15213-2582, USA.

    OBJECTIVE: To investigate the efficacy of the 3-carbon compounds pyruvate and dihydroxyacetone (PD) in inhibiting reaccumulation of body weight and fat with refeeding after weight loss. DESIGN: Longitudinal, in Clinical Research Center. After weight loss induced by hypoenergetic diet (1.3 MJ/d) for 3 weeks, refeeding with hyperenergetic diet (1.5 x resting energy expenditure) for 3 weeks. Refeeding diet randomized to contain PD or placebo (PL, polyglucose) as approximately 20% of energy intake. SUBJECTS: 17 obese healthy women (n = 8 in PL group, n = 9 in PD group) (age: 22-60 y, weight: 72.5-139.7 kg). MEASUREMENTS: Resting energy expenditure (REE), body composition (by bioelectrical impedance), nitrogen balance, serum proteins, biochemical profile, thyroid hormones, and insulin, before and after refeeding and weight and fat gain. RESULTS: Refeeding with a hyperenergetic diet, weight gain was significantly less in patients receiving PD compared to placebo (1.8 + 0.2 kg vs 2.9 +/- 0.1 kg, P < 0.01). Body fat regain was also less with feeding of PD (0.8 +/- 0.2 kg vs 1.8 +/- 0.2 kg, P < 0.01). Body protein metabolism, as measured by nitrogen balance, serum protein concentrations and fat free mass, was similar in subjects consuming either PD or PL. CONCLUSIONS: We conclude that 3-carbon compounds decrease weight gain and reaccumulation of body fat, without decreasing body protein gain, in obese subjects with hyperenergetic refeeding subsequent to weight loss.
    But seems like most studies that got results use like 22-45grams of it everyday. Nobody could afford that anyway so a useless supplement.

  7. #7
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  8. #8
    Kärnfysikern's Avatar
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    nice read. I always thought carnitine was crap. But that was l-carnitine not this acetyl l carnitine

    do you have any personal experience with it?`the health benifits alone seem to make it worth buying.

  9. #9
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    Exactly, the health benefits are the reason I will continue to take it. You are right L-Carnitine is crap. I've been taking ALCAR so a few months now, along with my ECA stack. I'm not gonna lie and say I can see a benefit, but a few good supps with a great diet, cardio and lifting go a logn way, and I see this a a very good sup. I do however notice more focus at work after taking it. Very good nootropic properties.

  10. #10
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    how much does it cost and how high dosage do you run?

  11. #11
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    I get mine from kentnutrition.com, they sell 250 (500mg) caps for bout $18. That is by far and away the cheapest I've ever seen this stuff. You can also buy the bulk powders from a few sources on the cheap too. I take about 3g per day. 1g before cardio, 1g before lunch and 1g before bed.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    3. If no dietary energy is given to the body. Will the body prefer releasing triglycerides from fat deposits or use the amino acid pool for energy and catabolise muscle tissue? I know both are used but why does the body prefer to use the fat as a source of energy?
    In regards to this question...ooff the top of my head...my reply ensues:

    In the presence of starvation..the body will initially burn bodyfat for fuel...conserving protein (this is the concept the precipitated the 'protein cycling' concept). This is shortlived though. Very soon, the 'starvation mechanism' kicks in and the body catabolizes proteinaceous tissue preferentially...conserving fat stores. This trait, passed along by our ancestors, serves to slow the metabolism... which, during times of famine, reduces the number of calories the body needs to remain alive.

    In effect...it is our 'survival mechanism'.

    ~Nark

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