Info on insuline spikes

[guest589745]

Can anyone tell me exactly what an insuline spike is and how/when to manipulate one to my advantage? Also when NOT to cause one. Thanks.

[Dave321]

the best time to manipulate an insulin spike is within 15 minutes of working out.
To spike insulin to shuttle protein to muscles and to restore muscle glycogen.

ingested at the right time can have a very anabolic effect

use dextrose. It is nothing but solid form of glucose which is exactly what the body requires in order to gain the most benificial insulin spike to increase proteinsynthesis to its max potential .. approx 400%

[guest589745]

pardon me for my ignorance but, I forget what glucose is actually contained in or where I can get it.

[Dave321]

pardon me for my ignorance but, I forget what glucose is actually contained in or where I can get it.

Dextrose- aka corn sugar.

[captain chet]

So a nice dextrose/protein shake right after the workout? Would dextrose/protein be a good combo for preworkout or no?

[SexyKitty]

pardon me for my ignorance but, I forget what glucose is actually contained in or where I can get it.

To put it most simply, glucose is a type of sugar,a simple carbohydrate.

When you injest simple sugars like dextrose, this causes a rapid increase in blood glucose. This is turns causes your pancreas to respond by secreting insulin to lower blood glucose (the insulin spike). When insulin is secreted, it shuttles nutrients into your cells. Hence why you want to have a high glucose meal ONLY after lifting, you want to have a protein drink and dextrose in order to cause the insulin spike to shuttle amino acids into your cells for rapid repair and recovery.

The rest of the time you want to keep your blood gluocose relatively steady (no insulin spikes) because as fast as your sugars will go up with high glycemic foods, as fast as blood glucose will come down as your pancreas responds. You want to keep your blood sugar steady throughout the day by eating low gi foods (proteins, essential fatty acids, tons of veggies).

[SexyKitty]

So a nice dextrose/protein shake right after the workout? Would dextrose/protein be a good combo for preworkout or no?

No, a low gi carb would be prefered. Your body wants to use glucose for fuel when training. Insulin spikes promote storage of nutrients.

[Dave321]

So a nice dextrose/protein shake right after the workout? Would dextrose/protein be a good combo for preworkout or no?

not for preworkout... your dexatrose ratio should be 2:1 (for every 1 scoops of protein you should have 2 scoops of dex)

[captain chet]

Damn, ive been doing 1:2 ratio, usually a 1:4 ratio, i feel all jittery and "off" if i have a lot of dextrose

[Giantz11]

most benificial insulin spike to increase proteinsynthesis to its max potential .. approx 400%

Do you have any literature supporting this, from everthing I've read the effects of hyperinsulinemia do not show any increasing of protein synthesis.

[IronFreakX]

also promotes facilitated diffusion of glucose through cells with insulin receptors, and of course this means muscle tissue(1). As you may expect, very high concentrations of insulin have been soundly result in markedly stimulated muscle protein synthesis (2)(3)(4)(9). It does this mainly at the translational level by enhancing peptide chain initiation (11). This property and it’s consequent results are probably the things which makes it most interesting to bodybuilders and athletes. This is because those factors combine to make ingested protein more efficient by promoting the transport of amino acids into muscle cells. Ergo, we can clearly say that insulin is undoubtedly anabolic in muscle tissue. It also has an anabolic effect in bone, and thereby increases bone density as well (8). Another mechanism by which insulin is anabolic is via increasing your body’s IGF (Insulin-like Growth Factor) levels (6). IGF is an extremely anabolic hormone


References:

1. Human Anatomy and Physiology, 6th Edition, John W. Hole
2. hyperinsulinemia unmasks insulin's effect to stimulate protein synthesis in human forearm.Am. J. Physiol. 274 (Endocrinol. Metab. 37): E1067-E1074, 1999
3. Impaired anabolic response of muscle protein synthesis is associated with S6K1 dysregulation in elderly humans. FASEB J. 2004 Oct;18(13):1586-7. Epub 2004 Aug 19.
4. Intravenous insulin decreases protein breakdown in infants on extracorporeal membrane oxygenation.J Pediatr Surg. 2004 Jun;39(6):839-44; discussion 839-44.
6. Insulin: the other anabolic hormone of puberty. Acta Paediatr Suppl. 1999 Dec;88(433):84-7. Review
8. Anabolic effects of insulin on bone suggest a role for chromium picolinate in preservation of bone density.Med Hypotheses. 1995 Sep;45(3):241-6. Review.
9.Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal muscle. J Clin Invest. 1995 Feb;95(2):811-9.
11. Effects of chronic hyperandrogenism and/or administered central nervous system insulin on ovarian manifestation and gonadotropin and steroid secretion. Fertil Steril. 2005 Apr;83 Suppl 4:1319-26.

Hope this helps....

[IronFreakX]

In fact, simply adding liquid glucose to a liquid amino-acid meal (thereby raising insulin levels) will increase the absorption of the ingested amino acids by roughly 50%!(7)

7. Contribution of amino acids and insulin to protein anabolism during meal absorption.
Diabetes. 1996 Sep;45(9):1245-52.

not bad!!!

[Giantz11]

Insulin clearly stimulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis in vitro. Surprisingly, this effect has been difficult to reproduce in vivo. As in vitro studies have typically used much higher insulin concentrations than in vivo studies, we examined whether these concentration differences could explain the discrepancy between in vitro and in vivo observations. In 14 healthy volunteers, we raised forearm insulin concentrations 1,000-fold above basal levels while maintaining euglycemia for 4 h. Amino acids (AA) were given to either maintain basal arterial (n = 4) or venous plasma (n = 6) AA or increment arterial plasma AA by 100% (n = 4) in the forearm. We measured forearm muscle glucose, lactate, oxygen, phenylalanine balance, and [3H]phenylalanine kinetics at baseline and at 4 h of insulin infusion. Extreme hyperinsulinemia strongly reversed postabsorptive muscle's phenylalanine balance from a net release to an uptake (P < 0.001). This marked anabolic effect resulted from a dramatic stimulation of protein synthesis (P < 0.01) and a modest decline in protein degradation. Furthermore, this effect was seen even when basal arterial or venous aminoacidemia was maintained. With marked hyperinsulinemia, protein synthesis increased further when plasma AA concentrations were also increased (P < 0.05). Forearm blood flow rose at least twofold with the combined insulin and AA infusion (P < 0.01), and this was consistent in all groups. These results demonstrate an effect of high concentrations of insulin to markedly stimulate muscle protein synthesis in vivo in adults, even when AA concentrations are not increased. This is similar to prior in vitro reports but distinct from physiological hyperinsulinemia in vivo where stimulation of protein synthesis does not occur. Therefore, the current findings suggest that the differences in insulin concentrations used in prior studies may largely explain the previously reported discrepancy between insulin action on protein synthesis in adult muscle in vivo vs. in vitro.

[Giantz11]

This effect has not been seen in vivo, the only one we care about.

[Giantz11]

Insulin sensitivity of protein and glucose metabolism in human forearm skeletal muscle.

Louard RJ, Fryburg DA, Gelfand RA, Barrett EJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06510.

Physiologic increases of insulin promote net amino acid uptake and protein anabolism in forearm skeletal muscle by restraining protein degradation. The sensitivity of this process to insulin is not known. Using the forearm perfusion method, we infused insulin locally in the brachial artery at rates of 0.00 (s****e control), 0.01, 0.02, 0.035, or 0.05 mU/min per kg for 150 min to increase local forearm plasma insulin concentration by 0, approximately 20, approximately 35, approximately 60, and approximately 120 microU/ml (n = 35). L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine and L-[1-14C]leucine were infused systemically, and the net forearm balance, rate of appearance (Ra) and rate of disposal (R(d)) of phenylalanine and leucine, and forearm glucose balance were measured basally and in response to insulin infusion. Compared to s****e, increasing rates of insulin infusion progressively increased net forearm glucose uptake from 0.9 mumol/min per 100 ml (s****e) to 1.0, 1.8, 2.4, and 4.7 mumol/min per 100 ml forearm, respectively. Net forearm balance for phenylalanine and leucine was significantly less negative than basal (P < 0.01 for each) in response to the lowest dose insulin infusion, 0.01 mU/min per kg, and all higher rates of insulin infusion. Phenylalanine and leucine R(a) declined by approximately 38 and 40% with the lowest dose insulin infusion. Higher doses of insulin produced no greater effect (decline in R(a) varied between 26 and 42% for phenylalanine and 30-50% for leucine). In contrast, R(d) for phenylalanine and leucine did not change with insulin. We conclude that even modest increases of plasma insulin can markedly suppress proteolysis, measured by phenylalanine R(a), in human forearm skeletal muscle. Further increments of insulin within the physiologic range augment glucose uptake but have little additional effect on phenylalanine R(a) or balance. These results suggest that proteolysis in human skeletal muscle is more sensitive than glucose uptake to physiologic increments in insulin.


Insulin and insulin-like growth factor-I enhance human skeletal muscle protein anabolism during hyperaminoacidemia by different mechanisms.

Fryburg DA, Jahn LA, Hill SA, Oliveras DM, Barrett EJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville 22908, USA.

Insulin inhibits proteolysis in human muscle thereby increasing protein anabolism. In contrast, IGF-I promotes muscle protein anabolism principally by stimulating protein synthesis. As increases or decreases of plasma amino acids may affect protein turnover in muscle and also alter the muscle's response to insulin and/or IGF-I, this study was designed to examine the effects of insulin and IGF-I on human muscle protein turnover during hyperaminoacidemia. We measured phenylalanine balance and [3H]-phenylalanine kinetics in both forearms of 22 postabsorptive adults during a continuous [3H] phenylalanine infusion. Measurements were made basally and at 3 and 6 h after beginning a systemic infusion of a balanced amino acid mixture that raised arterial phenylalanine concentration about twofold. Throughout the 6 h, 10 subjects received insulin locally (0.035 mU/min per kg) into one brachial artery while 12 other subjects were given intraaterial IGF-I (100 ng/min per kg) to raise insulin or IGF-I concentrations, respectively, in the infused arm. The contralateral arm in each study served as a simultaneous control for the effects of amino acids (aa) alone. Glucose uptake and lactate release increased in the insulin- and IGF-I-infused forearms (P < 0.01) but did not change in the contralateral (aa alone) forearm in either study. In the aa alone arm in both studies, hyperaminoacidemia reversed the postabsorptive net phenylalanine release by muscle to a net uptake (P < 0.025, for each) due to a stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. In the hormone-infused arms, the addition of either insulin or IGF-I promoted greater positive shifts in phenylalanine balance than the aa alone arm (P < 0.01). With insulin, the enhanced anabolism was due to inhibition of protein degradation (P < 0.02), whereas IGF-I augmented anabolism by a further stimulation of protein synthesis above aa alone (P < 0.02). We conclude that: (a) hyperaminoacidemia specifically stimulates muscle protein synthesis; (b) insulin, even with hyperaminoacidemia, improves muscle protein balance solely by inhibiting proteolysis; and (c) hyperaminoacidemia combined with IGF-I enhances protein synthesis more than either alone.

[Giantz11]

Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h s****e infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during s****e infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.

[IronFreakX]

(b) insulin , even with hyperaminoacidemia, improves muscle protein balance solely by inhibiting proteolysis;

wut do u use for pwo neway??

[guest589745]

me? I drink a fat glass of milk and usually eat some meat. If I have any, Ill eat a whole packet of lunch meat. Kinda salty but, I try to compensate and drink a lot of water if i ever do that. Its the poor-mans PWO "shake" I guess.

[Giantz11]

We conclude that even modest increases of plasma insulin can markedly suppress proteolysis

Yeah well that is an obvious point, any amount of insulin will immeadiately halt protein proteolysis, as it will lipolysis as well. The fact is in every text I've read, there has never been any study that has showed that hyperinsulinemia increases protein synthesis:

Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans.

By simply performing exercise you are already increasing insulin sensitivity, as well as increasing blood flow to the exercised body parts which will in effect transport AA's as well. Not to mention that exercise also increases GLU4 permeability, add all that together and I just don't see the need to spike the hell out of insulin. This has only shown to replenish glycogen quicker, which is not needed unless performing additional activities later on. So I switched to Oats and have not seen any difference in terms of recovery or gains.

[Giantz11]

me? I drink a fat glass of milk and usually eat some meat. If I have any, Ill eat a whole packet of lunch meat. Kinda salty but, I try to compensate and drink a lot of water if i ever do that. Its the poor-mans PWO "shake" I guess.

Oh hell yeah, I have a glass of Chocolate milk as well.

[IronFreakX]

ive been experimenting for a month now...without dex....Im actually Doing better ...

IMO...Results are what matter in the end.....Even if studies say othewise,...cept ofcourse results from lets say vit c on free radicals...u cant see results...well maybe strength results..and feeling better...blah u all got my point rite??

[Giantz11]

Totally, I couldn't agree more. If you are doing well with Dex stay with it. The only reason I switched is because I believe that whenever you can replace whole grains in your diet in the place of sugar as well as avoid spiking insulin sky high, you are doing a benefit to your body. Thats my choice, I'm def not trying to say dex doesn't work and I'm not trying to say you don't need insulin. CAUSE YOU DO!!! But from everything I've read even in a few physiology books, they all state that hyperinsulinemia does not increase protein synthesis.

[rssumme]

Giantz, you seem to be anti insulin spike PWO, which is odd since this board is full of mods who think the opposite of you. May I ask what you use PWO since you are not a believer in DEX/PRO for PWO?

I am relatively new to this game and the only thing I have deduced for sure so far is that everyone has a different opinion. I just want to do what is best for results. I'm cutting first, and I've been using DEX/PRO PWO and im seeing fat loss, but I always wondered if it would be quicker if I didnt use so much sugar PWO.

Arggggh! head spinning...

[Giantz11]

Its posted above.

[Giantz11]

I honestly can't answer that for you. If you are losing fat, then stick with it. I stated my reasons for switching above. I don't ask anyone switch simply because I say so, but I have done reearch and found literature that supports one doesn't need to sky rocket insulin PWO. So I will refrain from doing so.

[rssumme]

Thanks for the info.

Anyone from the other side of the camp want to chime in?

If I decided to use oats PWO should I still use 80 grams worth or is this also overkill in your opinion? How much oats to you utilize?

[Giantz11]

The oats would equal the aount of dex you would use.

But personally, if you take 80g dex PWO. I would bracket it around my workout.

40g Pre -WO
40g Post

[Kärnfysikern]

In fact, simply adding liquid glucose to a liquid amino-acid meal (thereby raising insulin levels) will increase the absorption of the ingested amino acids by roughly 50%!(7)

7. Contribution of amino acids and insulin to protein anabolism during meal absorption.
Diabetes. 1996 Sep;45(9):1245-52.

not bad!!!

if Im reading that study correctly they say that amino acids is the important thing while insulin doesnt make a whole lot of difference at all to protein anabolism and that amino acids stimulate ifg release NOT insulin. Interesting.

[steve0]

i didnt see anyone mention HONEY its the best IMO i take a little shot before and a little after with some Whey i dunno but i still stay lean