Dextrose=simple sugar=Table sugar/syrup?.....

[Kärnfysikern]

giantz how many grams of carb do you suggest should be used pre, during and post workout?

[Giantz11]

I usually take about 65g carb, 45 pro before and after I lift. It all really depends on ones macro's. I eat carbs 4 times per day, so I try and spread them out evenly through out the day. So 65 for breakfast, 65 Pre Wo, 65 PWO and 65 PPWO.

[IronFreakX]

try some vitamin c with the pre workout

[Giantz11]

Yeah I just bought a shitload at Costco, thanks to Johan's little experiment!

[Kärnfysikern]

vitamin c rox

[steve0]

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/..._aug172001.htm




I know alot pepole on this oard dont like JB's veiws but read this one, this is why i use honey instead of spending money on other PWO carbs

[Kärnfysikern]

funny the abstracts he is refering to cant be found in the journal of strenght and conditioning research like they should.

http://nsca.allenpress.com/nscaonlin...ume=14&issue=3

[Giantz11]

JB's goal is to sell Biotest Surge, it's as simple as that.

[IronFreakX]

JB's goal is to sell Biotest Surge, it's as simple as that.

yeah all he was talking bout ws biotest surge this biotest surge that...

[Kärnfysikern]

this was very interesting. I am reading the study Insulin sign****g effects of prior exercise Acta Physiol Scand 2003, 178, 321–328.

Here is 2 quotes from it

In human beings the gold standard hyperinsulinaemic
euglycaemic clamp technique has shown
improved insulin sensitivity in relation to glucose
clearance at the whole body level after a single bout
of cycle or stair-climbing exercise (Bogardus et al. 1983,
Devlin et al. 1987, Mikines et al. 1988, Perseghin et al.
1996) and suggests that the action of insulin may be
improved as long as 2 days after a single exercise bout
(Mikines et al. 1988, Perseghin et al. 1996). Some
exceptions to this concept do however exist. For
example, immediately after exercise insulin action on
glucose clearance in vivo is impaired possibly because of
elevated concentrations of catecholamines, free fatty
acids and intracellular glucose metabolites (Kjær et al.
1986, 1990, Devlin et al. 1989). Likewise, eccentric
exercise or physical activities with a dominant component
of eccentric contractions elicit a prolonged
decrease in insulin action, which may be caused by
muscle damage and altered protein expression (e.g.
GLUT4) and function [e.g. phosphatidyl inositol 3
kinase (PI3K)] (Asp et al. 1995, 1996, Tuominen et al.
1996, Del Aguila et al. 2000).

And this one that is the most interesting and that totaly supports low gi

Insulin sensitivity is dependent
on glucose availability
Studies in rodents and humans have revealed that the
reversal of insulin sensitivity to stimulate muscle glucose
transport is linked to glucose metabolism. For example,
depriving rats of carbohydrate in the post-exercise
period results in a prolonged increase in insulin sensitivity
compared with the carbohydrate-fed state (Cartee
et al. 1989). In fact, replacement of glucose by the nonmetabolized
2-deoxy-glucose analogue in the incubation
media significantly lengthened the period of
increased insulin sensitivity (Gulve et al. 1990). In
contrast, muscle incubation in conditions beneficial to
glucose uptake results in a faster normalization of
muscle insulin sensitivity (Gulve et al. 1990). Likewise,
in human settings, Bogardus et al. (1983) observed that
whole body insulin sensitivity 15 h after a single bout of
exercise was normalized when human subjects ingested
100 g of carbohydrate 3 h after exercise whereas when
the subjects fasted in the post-exercise period enhanced
insulin sensitivity was maintained.

So when it comes to glucogen replenishemt we DONT have a limited post workout window that we need to take advantage of. So using a low gi carb makes alot of sense.

[Kärnfysikern]

acctualy those 2 quotes togheter indicates that using a high gi carb imidietly pwo might even be worse then a low gi simply because the bodys ability to take advantage of those carbs is diminished imidietly pwo but higher a while after.

[guest589745]

So have we came to a conclusion?

[IronFreakX]

yeah that high Gi carbs are useless after a workout...and low GI carbs are better

[Kärnfysikern]

I wouldnt say useless. But it seems like low gi could get the work done just as good with more health benifits.

[IronFreakX]

I wouldnt say useless. But it seems like low gi could get the work done just as good with more health benifits.

if it can get the job done...and u avoid using simple sugar and get more micro nutrients y sue Dex?

[Kärnfysikern]

some might like the taste

[IronFreakX]

some might like the taste

Ne1 you know??

[Kärnfysikern]

im a glucose junkie. oohhhh the sweet taste

[mrclark]

Hi, I'm still a bit confused as to the high GI vs low GI conclusion. I've read and searched through 100's of posts on this forum - all claiming the dex : protein [2:1] for PWO.

Now, this interesting article suggests a lower GI food (i.e. oats ) with a combination of a whey(isolate/normal) protein - correct?

So on training days, what happens with the PWO & PPWO meals ? Should we substitute a low GI food item in each?

It's also interesting to find out what the impact of loading dextrose during every workout session (i.e. 3-4/5 for most people) would do in a long term aspect - i.e. in respect to acquiring type II diabetes.

Obviously only a few, outdated research studies have been written concerning this. It would be nice to see another research report claiming the exact opposite - a high GI food [i.e. dextrose] is more beneficial for a PWO.

Somewhere within this thread, there was a claim saying that the PWO is not as beneficial as when taking it PRIOR to resistance training.

These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.

So then, would we take a low gi [carb-pro] meal (i.e. meal 3 prior to lifting] , ditch the PWO meal, and go for a PPWO [carb-pro] meal after training?


Lastly, a bit off topic [regarding Vitamin C ] - at what time should vitamin C be administered, and how many grams should be consumed. Does Vitamin C have a proven effect on lowering levels of cortisol, and how long does it take to see lowered concetrations of that particular hormone.

Again. thanks to all who are contributing to this topic, as well as posting some research results.

Thanks in advance

[Giantz11]

I doubt you'll get a difinitive answer on the PWO question. Yes some use Dex and yes some use Oats (Prolly not that many but I do ). It really is up to you, if you find that you can make the same gains with oats you did with dex then you can swithc or if the gains just don't compare, then stick with dex. All I have tried to show is that there are current studies that state a low-gi carb souce can be used. It will not fill glycogen as fast but it will still work. In terms of the Pre-Wo drink i think we see this is nessisary to bracket pre and post workout drinks. It could be that pre ends up being more beneficial the post however I'm not quite ready to stop PWO. However when you think about it pre-wo makes alot of sense, seeing that amino's can be directly transported (via exercise/increased bloodflow) striaght to the muscles, very intersting concerpt indeed. My advice would be to experiment, but try to start bracketing fo sure.

[Kärnfysikern]

Lastly, a bit off topic [regarding Vitamin C ] - at what time should vitamin C be administered, and how many grams should be consumed. Does Vitamin C have a proven effect on lowering levels of cortisol, and how long does it take to see lowered concetrations of that particular hormone.

Again. thanks to all who are contributing to this topic, as well as posting some research results.

Thanks in advance

Yes the cortisol lowering effect of vitamin c is proven

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...21&query_hl=73

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...482&query_hl=2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...614&query_hl=2

In the marathon they used 3 grams but I se several flaws in that study, one beeing the half life of vitamin c that is very short. I would recomend taking 1gram every hour for best effect that will keep blood levels of vitamin c high all the day. A single dose of 3-5 grams pre workouts and 1g hour at other times. Nothing post workout though since it possibly inhibits insulin release.

Use 15-20 grams/day(as much as your stomach can tollerate)

How long it takes for the effect I dont know.

[Giantz11]

How long it takes for the effect I dont know.

Well what good are you then???

[Kärnfysikern]

Well what good are you then???

[Veretta21]

Johan are you taking the Vit. C preworkout with any type of food or drink besides water---Recently I took the Vit. C (around 3g) preworkout with just crystal light and my muscles have been tightening up on two different occasions last week, once when sprinting in my quads and once when I am was lifting doing chest---wondering if I should be taking it with food or something?

[Kärnfysikern]

I have taken large dosages(10grams) both on empty stomach and with food without noticing and sides.

If I push my bowel tollerance vitamin c gives me stomach pain though.

did the thightening happen in conjunction with vitamin c? How long after you took it?

[Veretta21]

Took my Vit. C and went to the gym and happened about 25 minutes in when doing chest, and for the sprints I took the Vitamin C and went straight to the track happened pretty early for the sprints---I had to stop after like 5 sprints in fear of pulling my quad cause it tweaked a little bit--not saying it was the Vit. C just checking options---been on a program for the last couple months and it has been pretty taxing on my body---could have been the wear and tear though

[Kärnfysikern]

Odd. Let me know if it happens again after vitamin c consumption.

[Giantz11]

Vitamin C is for pussies

[Giantz11]

Sorry Johan, bored at work, what can I say???

[Veretta21]

Giantz you are incorrect---there was a new study that states when takin in large doses it attracts pussy---I understand the confusion

[mrclark]

Yes the cortisol lowering effect of vitamin c is proven

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...21&query_hl=73

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...482&query_hl=2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...614&query_hl=2

In the marathon they used 3 grams but I se several flaws in that study, one beeing the half life of vitamin c that is very short. I would recomend taking 1gram every hour for best effect that will keep blood levels of vitamin c high all the day. A single dose of 3-5 grams pre workouts and 1g hour at other times. Nothing post workout though since it possibly inhibits insulin release.

Use 15-20 grams/day(as much as your stomach can tollerate)

How long it takes for the effect I dont know.

Great! Thanks for the time taken in following this up johan. I'll probably stick to 5 grams total - leaving around 3gs for preworkout, and spare the other 2g's some other time (exlcuding postworkout) in the day/night.

I believe the half-life of Ascorbic acid was around ~30mins, so the dispersed amount would probably be more ideal. Unfortunately, taking 10-15g's (@1000mg tablets) a day will put a nice dent in your wallet

[Giantz11]

If thats the case Johan and his 20g's a day must be gettin it done.

[Veretta21]

Johan I am lowering the dose for me now to 1.2 g a day and see how this goes right now

[Giantz11]

On a serious not....Johan and others if your primary concern is suppresing Cortisol, Lean Extreme by Designer Sups does this better than anything out there as far as I know of.

[rssumme]

Are there any pro Dextrose studies out there that can help us understand both sides? Because the pro Dextrose family is awfully quiet on this issue. There has to be a reason people have been advocating DEX/high GI here for so long. Why not join this debate?

[Giantz11]

There are pro dex studies....They are mainly used by sup companies and all they do is show that a huge insulin spike PWO replenishes glycogen at a faster rate. It has yet to be proven that hyperinsulinemia increases protein synthesis in vivo, that is why you won't see any studies on it.

[Kärnfysikern]

On a serious not....Johan and others if your primary concern is suppresing Cortisol, Lean Extreme by Designer Sups does this better than anything out there as far as I know of.

nah as I se it the cortisol lowering effect is just a nice effect. My primary concern is cardiovascular health, its ability to neutralise heavy metals and other positive effects and its positive effects on weightloss(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...23&query_hl=12)

Tell me more about this supplement though

[Kärnfysikern]

Great! Thanks for the time taken in following this up johan. I'll probably stick to 5 grams total - leaving around 3gs for preworkout, and spare the other 2g's some other time (exlcuding postworkout) in the day/night.

I believe the half-life of Ascorbic acid was around ~30mins, so the dispersed amount would probably be more ideal. Unfortunately, taking 10-15g's (@1000mg tablets) a day will put a nice dent in your wallet

taking 20 grams of sodium ascorbate powder costs very little. I spend like 1$ a day and get 20grams a day of it. I know sodium ascorbate powder can be found MUCh cheaper in the states aswell. Got links if you are interested.

[Giantz11]

It's a metabolite of DHEA.....7-alpha-hydroxy-dehydroepiandrosterone....Its Patent-pending so you have to get it from DS. But it for all intensive purposes detroys cortisol, so much to the point you know that you have to back off the stuff if you take too much because your joints will be killing you.

[Kärnfysikern]

sounds good.

I rather increase mass by lowering catabolic processes then using lots of steroids . Is it expensive?