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  1. #1
    kaptainkeezy04's Avatar
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    pre and post workout shakes...need help.

    Okay i know this question has been asked a hundred times and ive done my research but i cant find a straight f u c k i n g answer...
    For gaining muscle, lean or not...
    Should my preworkout shake consist of simple or complex carbs?
    Should my postworkout shake consist of simple or complex carbs?

    Thanks ahead of time for any advice.

  2. #2
    IronFreakX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaptainkeezy04
    Okay i know this question has been asked a hundred times and ive done my research but i cant find a straight f u c k i n g answer...
    For gaining muscle, lean or not...
    Should my preworkout shake consist of simple or complex carbs?
    Should my postworkout shake consist of simple or complex carbs?

    Thanks ahead of time for any advice.
    muscle is lean wether u like it or not

    -a pre-workout shake should consist of complex (whey+oats)

    -a post workout....Ha , this is a tough 1

    cuz
    1-i have seen no studies supporting high GI PWO

    2-I have never seen a diff between high GI , Low GI but my friend is doing better using High GI

    Try (oats+whey+honey) for a month try (dex +pro) for a month while keeping all other factors the same and stick the one that yielded better results

    1st pwo is: oats:honey:whey----1:1:1
    2nd pwo is: dexro -----2:1


  3. #3
    niXon)('s Avatar
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    if its a complex prewo and you had it 2-4 hours before WO it'll get used as energy.
    if its high gi make it 1-2 hrs b4 wo.

    PWO high gi has worked for me

  4. #4
    mrclark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    muscle is lean wether u like it or not

    -a pre-workout shake should consist of complex (whey+oats)

    -a post workout....Ha , this is a tough 1

    cuz
    1-i have seen no studies supporting high GI PWO

    2-I have never seen a diff between high GI , Low GI but my friend is doing better using High GI

    Try (oats+whey+honey) for a month try (dex +pro) for a month while keeping all other factors the same and stick the one that yielded better results

    1st pwo is: oats:honey:whey----1:1:1
    2nd pwo is: dexro -----2:1

    Yeah it would be nice to see something regarding that...

    So what's your opinion on 2 LOW-MOD GI meals i.e. :

    Preworkout : OATS + WHEY + HONEY (1 : 1 : 1)
    PWO : OATS + WHEY + HONEY (1 : 1 : 1)

    Both are semi-moderate GI meals...


    http://67.18.108.244/showthread.php?...ht=CHO+protein

    That thread link above hit the motherload of debate with this neverending topic


    Maybe taking a low-mod gi (oats : honey : protein ) preworkout and hi GI (dextrose : protein) PWO might be better.... who knows

  5. #5
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    personally i keep it simple.

    preworkout i go with whey, glutamine, and dex.
    PWO i go with whey and oats.

  6. #6
    Flex2winny is offline Associate Member
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    what time do you train??

  7. #7
    *Narkissos*'s Avatar
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    pre-workout i go: pro+fat
    PWO: i go pro+dex
    PPWO: pro+ [complex] carb

  8. #8
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    man, what is the best.... i simply eat the right meals early in the day (all macros), and have a 1:1 protien/carb mix PWO (BMF HardCore, seperate) but im going 1:2 PWO. All other meals have all macros, i dont worry about seperating fat/carbs, as im bulking.

  9. #9
    *Narkissos*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narkissos
    pre-workout i go: pro+fat
    PWO: i go pro+dex
    PPWO: pro+ [complex] carb
    That's how it goes now that i'm cutting... but offseason pre-workout i'll go: pro+ [complex] carb

  10. #10
    Alpha-Male's Avatar
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    preworkout shake (10 min. out) i use about 30g dex with 1 scoop whey...then go with 50g whey/80g dex&malto post...based on some info i posted awhile back from the book Nutrient Timing...search if ya like

    AM

  11. #11
    guest589745 is offline 2/3 Deca 1/3 Test
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    Quote Originally Posted by fighteveryone
    personally i keep it simple.

    preworkout i go with whey, glutamine, and dex.
    PWO i go with whey and oats.
    I have read NOT TO take glutamine directly post/pre wo cause it interferes with protein synthesis. dont know how to find out if this is true or not though.

  12. #12
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    I have no opinion on pre but post should be a simple carb just to spike the insuling level faster and transfer the protein to the muscles for repair after weights.

  13. #13
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    After too many research posted threads arguing this topic,

    I've had it, andl I am going to stick to this now :

    preWO - 1 cup oats + 1tbs honey + 1/2 scoop isopure + 3g CEE
    ~1hr later

    Workout
    ~10-15mins later

    postWO - 1/2 scoop isopure + 50g dex (1 : 2 )

    ~1hour later - last meal
    PPWO - 1/2 cup brown rice, some green veg, 2.5oz Chicken breast

    ------

    my other time for carbs (1/2c br. rice) was in the AM, 1hr after fasted cardio.

    Total training day : 1739cal / 227g C (51%) / 122g P (29%) 38g F (20%) Current weight 142lbs, 5'6 - cutting to 136/138lbs.


    I guess a combo of the two Low/HI GI pre&post & cho-pro PPWO would prolly save alot of worrying... Anyways, this would avoid any fat meals for these 3 meals, and get your glycogen levels up AND hopefully protein synthesis going

  14. #14
    sooners04's Avatar
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    That looks solid to me bro.

  15. #15
    Flex2winny is offline Associate Member
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    I dont mean to steal your thunder, but I too have a question on a set-up.

    How would this plan look for someone who is cuttinf vs. someone who is bulking?

    PRETRAIN AT 300
    CAN OF TUNA
    SMALL SALAD

    TRAIN FROM 500-615

    630
    1/2 SCOOP DEXT
    1 SCOOP PROTEIN

    730
    1/2 CUP BROWN RICE
    1 CAN TUNA OR LEAN MEAT (4OZ)
    GREEN BEANS OR LARGE SALAD

    930
    1 SCOOP CASEIN
    1 TB OF FLAX

    945
    BED

    TOO MUCH TOO LATE?

  16. #16
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    This was already covered in the last thread.....Have 2 meals after your Work out....PWO and PPWO. No need to Pro/Flax, as I said before adding a fat at this time with insulin levels being what they are is not a good idea, but do what you want.

  17. #17
    S.P.G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fighteveryone
    personally i keep it simple.

    preworkout i go with whey, glutamine, and dex.
    PWO i go with whey and oats.
    i was under the impression that p/w was all about simple carbs, to replenish the muscle glycogen, as quickly as possible to kick-start the recovery process as soon as possible

  18. #18
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    There is no correlation between the replenishment of muscle glycogen and protein syntheis. Protein synthesis peaks 24Hr post Workout.

  19. #19
    Phixion is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    This was already covered in the last thread.....Have 2 meals after your Work out....PWO and PPWO. No need to Pro/Flax, as I said before adding a fat at this time with insulin levels being what they are is not a good idea, but do what you want.
    It's two hours later, I don't think his insulin levels will be a problem with the Flax....He's barely getting any Fats in his diet as it is..anyways his PWWO is only 4 oz of beef, one scoup of casein should give his muscles a last supply of protein to prevent catabolism since he's cutting....Just have the shake 45-hour instead of 15 minutes before bed.

  20. #20
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    The Flax should be fit in another time frame, if you can it would suit you to wokr out a bit later and have your last pro/carb meal right before you go to bed. But I agree with Phixion, if you have not had your fats and need an additional meal it woul be ok to have this shake. I personally would like to eat a Low Gi slow buring carb with meat right before bed, this will do better than any shake with flax.

  21. #21
    S.P.G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    There is no correlation between the replenishment of muscle glycogen and protein syntheis. Protein synthesis peaks 24Hr post Workout.
    ok so you would say that a complex carb, would be ok for P/W?? This is interesting, have you got a link to the evidence ?? I’m not disagreeing with you its just that I was always under the impression that it takes the body longer to brake down long chain complex carbohydrates, so by the time this has happened you are out of the anabolic window….yes it is correct that all sugar is the same but the way the body uses it is very different..
    Last edited by S.P.G; 08-17-2005 at 10:56 AM.

  22. #22
    Flex2winny is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    The Flax should be fit in another time frame, if you can it would suit you to wokr out a bit later and have your last pro/carb meal right before you go to bed. But I agree with Phixion, if you have not had your fats and need an additional meal it woul be ok to have this shake. I personally would like to eat a Low Gi slow buring carb with meat right before bed, this will do better than any shake with flax.
    Flax is an optimal fat and a good 2+ hours before bed........it's a tb, to help slow absorption....bad idea?

  23. #23
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    I do have some evidence that a Low GI carb source can be utilized, I have posted up in another thread, but I'll dig a few up for you. This is what I utilize, but to each their own. Hyperinsulinemia has not been shown the enhance protein synthesis, it will restore glycogen faster but it does not have an effect on protein synthesis. So if a Low Gi carb is comsumed it will take longer to digest and restore glycogen but this is only a problem if you have an activity immeadiately following your Work out.

  24. #24
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    Flax does not slow the absorbtion of protein.

  25. #25
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    This study states that a modest increase in plasma insulin can suppress muscle protein proteolysis.

    Insulin sensitivity of protein and glucose metabolism in human forearm skeletal muscle.

    Louard RJ, Fryburg DA, Gelfand RA, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06510.

    Physiologic increases of insulin promote net amino acid uptake and protein anabolism in forearm skeletal muscle by restraining protein degradation. The sensitivity of this process to insulin is not known. Using the forearm perfusion method, we infused insulin locally in the brachial artery at rates of 0.00 (saline control), 0.01, 0.02, 0.035, or 0.05 mU/min per kg for 150 min to increase local forearm plasma insulin concentration by 0, approximately 20, approximately 35, approximately 60, and approximately 120 microU/ml (n = 35). L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine and L-[1-14C]leucine were infused systemically, and the net forearm balance, rate of appearance (Ra) and rate of disposal (R(d)) of phenylalanine and leucine, and forearm glucose balance were measured basally and in response to insulin infusion. Compared to saline, increasing rates of insulin infusion progressively increased net forearm glucose uptake from 0.9 mumol/min per 100 ml (saline) to 1.0, 1.8, 2.4, and 4.7 mumol/min per 100 ml forearm, respectively. Net forearm balance for phenylalanine and leucine was significantly less negative than basal (P < 0.01 for each) in response to the lowest dose insulin infusion, 0.01 mU/min per kg, and all higher rates of insulin infusion. Phenylalanine and leucine R(a) declined by approximately 38 and 40% with the lowest dose insulin infusion. Higher doses of insulin produced no greater effect (decline in R(a) varied between 26 and 42% for phenylalanine and 30-50% for leucine). In contrast, R(d) for phenylalanine and leucine did not change with insulin. We conclude that even modest increases of plasma insulin can markedly suppress proteolysis, measured by phenylalanine R(a), in human forearm skeletal muscle. Further increments of insulin within the physiologic range augment glucose uptake but have little additional effect on phenylalanine R(a) or balance. These results suggest that proteolysis in human skeletal muscle is more sensitive than glucose uptake to physiologic increments in insulin.

  26. #26
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    Here is is shown that Amino's stimulate Protein synthesis:


    Fryburg DA, Jahn LA, Hill SA, Oliveras DM, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville 22908, USA.

    Insulin inhibits proteolysis in human muscle thereby increasing protein anabolism. In contrast, IGF-I promotes muscle protein anabolism principally by stimulating protein synthesis. As increases or decreases of plasma amino acids may affect protein turnover in muscle and also alter the muscle's response to insulin and/or IGF-I, this study was designed to examine the effects of insulin and IGF-I on human muscle protein turnover during hyperaminoacidemia. We measured phenylalanine balance and [3H]-phenylalanine kinetics in both forearms of 22 postabsorptive adults during a continuous [3H] phenylalanine infusion. Measurements were made basally and at 3 and 6 h after beginning a systemic infusion of a balanced amino acid mixture that raised arterial phenylalanine concentration about twofold. Throughout the 6 h, 10 subjects received insulin locally (0.035 mU/min per kg) into one brachial artery while 12 other subjects were given intraaterial IGF-I (100 ng/min per kg) to raise insulin or IGF-I concentrations, respectively, in the infused arm. The contralateral arm in each study served as a simultaneous control for the effects of amino acids (aa) alone. Glucose uptake and lactate release increased in the insulin- and IGF-I-infused forearms (P < 0.01) but did not change in the contralateral (aa alone) forearm in either study. In the aa alone arm in both studies, hyperaminoacidemia reversed the postabsorptive net phenylalanine release by muscle to a net uptake (P < 0.025, for each) due to a stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. In the hormone-infused arms, the addition of either insulin or IGF-I promoted greater positive shifts in phenylalanine balance than the aa alone arm (P < 0.01). With insulin, the enhanced anabolism was due to inhibition of protein degradation (P < 0.02), whereas IGF-I augmented anabolism by a further stimulation of protein synthesis above aa alone (P < 0.02). We conclude that: (a) hyperaminoacidemia specifically stimulates muscle protein synthesis; (b) insulin, even with hyperaminoacidemia, improves muscle protein balance solely by inhibiting proteolysis; and (c) hyperaminoacidemia combined with IGF-I enhances protein synthesis more than either alone.

  27. #27
    S.P.G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    I do have some evidence that a Low GI carb source can be utilized, I have posted up in another thread, but I'll dig a few up for you. This is what I utilize, but to each their own. Hyperinsulinemia has not been shown the enhance protein synthesis, it will restore glycogen faster but it does not have an effect on protein synthesis. So if a Low Gi carb is comsumed it will take longer to digest and restore glycogen but this is only a problem if you have an activity immeadiately following your Work out.
    that’s cool bro, I’m by no means stuck in my ways, I’m always open to other peoples opinion, it just that this is one of the first times I’ve heard this and iv been a qualified nutritionist for about a year now..

  28. #28
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    Extreme hyperinsulinemia unmasks insulin 's effect to stimulate protein synthesis in the human forearm.

    Hillier TA, Fryburg DA, Jahn LA, Barrett EJ.

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, and General Clinical Research Center, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Insulin clearly stimulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis in vitro. Surprisingly, this effect has been difficult to reproduce in vivo. As in vitro studies have typically used much higher insulin concentrations than in vivo studies, we examined whether these concentration differences could explain the discrepancy between in vitro and in vivo observations. In 14 healthy volunteers, we raised forearm insulin concentrations 1,000-fold above basal levels while maintaining euglycemia for 4 h. Amino acids (AA) were given to either maintain basal arterial (n = 4) or venous plasma (n = 6) AA or increment arterial plasma AA by 100% (n = 4) in the forearm. We measured forearm muscle glucose, lactate, oxygen, phenylalanine balance, and [3H]phenylalanine kinetics at baseline and at 4 h of insulin infusion. Extreme hyperinsulinemia strongly reversed postabsorptive muscle's phenylalanine balance from a net release to an uptake (P < 0.001). This marked anabolic effect resulted from a dramatic stimulation of protein synthesis (P < 0.01) and a modest decline in protein degradation. Furthermore, this effect was seen even when basal arterial or venous aminoacidemia was maintained. With marked hyperinsulinemia, protein synthesis increased further when plasma AA concentrations were also increased (P < 0.05). Forearm blood flow rose at least twofold with the combined insulin and AA infusion (P < 0.01), and this was consistent in all groups. These results demonstrate an effect of high concentrations of insulin to markedly stimulate muscle protein synthesis in vivo in adults, even when AA concentrations are not increased. This is similar to prior in vitro reports but distinct from physiological hyperinsulinemia in vivo where stimulation of protein synthesis does not occur. Therefore, the current findings suggest that the differences in insulin concentrations used in prior studies may largely explain the previously reported discrepancy between insulin action on protein synthesis in adult muscle in vivo vs. in vitro.

  29. #29
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

    Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.

  30. #30
    S.P.G's Avatar
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    I haven’t read it all yet but…..thanks good read

  31. #31
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    No Problem.

  32. #32
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    the insulin sensitivity is higher pwo until the carbs are replenished, not for a set time period. So using a low gi carb pwo will mean a longer period of increased insulin sensitivity.

  33. #33
    Flex2winny is offline Associate Member
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    I guess I'm just a tad confused...sorry. Am I ok with the current layout? What if I skip the initial shake and go str8 into the meal....then, have the last shake before bed......adequate?

  34. #34
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    Flex.....You are making this far more complicated than it should be....Work out have your shake have your PPWO meal and then have another shake 2 to 2.5 hours later if you wish as long as it fits into your daily cals.

  35. #35
    Flex2winny is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    Flex.....You are making this far more complicated than it should be....Work out have your shake have your PPWO meal and then have another shake 2 to 2.5 hours later if you wish as long as it fits into your daily cals.
    thanks bro...sorry about that.......

    It does, I'm 6'2.5 and 180lb with about 9%bf

    total foods prior are:
    1 1/2 cups oats
    1 cup egg whites
    1 scoop whey
    1 tub dry curd cc
    1 large salad
    8oz beef
    4oz ww pasta.....

  36. #36
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    You are good to go, IMO.

  37. #37
    Flex2winny is offline Associate Member
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    thanks boss....what does your schedule look like?

  38. #38
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    5pm: Yogurt/Granola/Honey & Whey Shake

    7pm: Workout

    8:30pm: PWO Chocolate Milk and Oats w/ Whey

    9:30pm: PPWO Lean protein and Low GI carb

    10:30: Go to ****ing Sleep!

  39. #39
    Flex2winny is offline Associate Member
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    stats?

  40. #40
    Flex2winny is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    5pm: Yogurt/Granola/Honey & Whey Shake

    7pm: Workout

    8:30pm: PWO Chocolate Milk and Oats w/ Whey

    9:30pm: PPWO Lean protein and Low GI carb

    10:30: Go to ****ing Sleep!

    interesting..........is that reg. choc. milk or skim? Wouldnt you like one more shake at 10:30, or too much for the day? WHat are your stats and goals now?

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