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We "AR members" all know(for those who choose to go this route), that Whey+Dex @ 2:1 ratio PWO, is quite popular and produces results.
I would like the opinions of our members on the effectiveness of Whey+Vitargo in it's proper ratio for PWO.(no I'm not specificly talking about Nutrex's creatine product, although it has vitargo in it).
Random claims about this carbrohydrate include..."digested 80% faster than Dextrose"..."loads muscle glycogen 70% faster"...
Any thoughts?
-shaokahn-
I'm sure some in here know my take on this. But the rate of glycogen replenishment should be a non-factor. Making both just about equal choices.
:scratch: The rate of glycogen replenishment isn't a factor PWO?????Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantz11
:scratch: If Vitargo is digested 80% faster than Dextrose, then they are "equal" choices????
Ya got me bro.
It was my understanding that these are two very important factors PWO, hence my interest in this carb.
Glycogen replenishment has nothing to do with the rates of protein synthesis. SO if you want to fill glycogen faster go ahead. But it makes no difference in terms of muscle growth. If you had a further activity it would make alot of sense, but if you don't then it makes no difference. Anyways 60-90 min PWO glycogen synthesis is insulin independant.
I'm currently running my Vitargo Immediatley PWO then hitting about 60 grams of whey 15 minutes later. Getting great results.
Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.
Costill DL.
The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.
Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.
Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.
Interesting reading Giantz11, thanks for the info http://forums.steroid.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ...I'm here to learn, alot of your posts are like this, and it's much appreciated.
-shaokahn-
No Problem Brotha! I mean we all know that Dex is mad cheap, not sure the cost of Vitargo but, I'd rather spend my money on roids/strippers/hookers/IHOP etc.... :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantz11
werd
Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes.
if this is true then why do people shoot insulin PWO or take in dex to create an insulin spike with dex? im very confused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdogc
because when shooting slin the levels achieved does stimluate protein synthesis, but the levels you can achive naturaly isnt sufficient for that effect. You need supraphysiological levels for that to happen.
I have switched to milk as my pwo carb source and so far I havent noticed any negative effect from that choise. To soon to tell for sure.
dex is used because it was assumed to be optimal. But recent studies show its not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdogc
Pretty much exactly what Joahn just said is what I think. Basically shooting slin PWO does increase anabolism but through mechanisms that cannot be explained.
Now...where/why did you get the milk idea Yo?Quote:
Originally Posted by johan
well basicly any carb source is good. I was thinking about oats at first but milk tastes better :aaGreen22Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAOKAHN
Hey Yo...Recent studies show dex is not optimal? Care to humor me with specifics?http://forums.steroid.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
-shaokahn-
I think the abstracts giantz posted here is 2 good ones. Maby he can post some more, I know he has plenty more :dance: I dont have the links to studies anymore and he is the one that knows most about that :)
But basicly any carb will do. Dex is not worse then any other carb. But other carbs gets the job done along with more health advantages.
Dex is superior if you need to refill glycogen stores quickly(like if you are a atlethe and is gonna do some kind of training a couple of hours after you lift weights). But it doesnt do anything for lbm gains that lower gi carbs cant do just as good.
lol that was me when i first had a Conversation with giantQuote:
Originally Posted by SHAOKAHN
This thread may help.....
I can repost some studies if you want, but I posted a few good ones here.
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...47#post1997847
thats a thread and a half
You can say that again. :7up:Quote:
Originally Posted by S.P.G
Two world-class informative posts followed by that. . . love this place. :wg:Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantz11