PWO cutting/bulking

[peterj]

hi guys
first post, enjoy reading the board

if you are cutting and calories, especially those from carbs are limited is there a good enough arguement to leave them out PWO in favour of having more in the meal about an hour later having more quality slower acting carbs?

in theory muscle breakdown will be dealt with with whey in water only but no insulin spike would mean lipolysis continues in this one hour period or is the requirement for carbohydrates that high PWO we must accept the use of sugars or maltodextrin after training?

what would be the issue with secretion of catabolic hormones for those avoiding carbohydrate after training in favour of more in the next meal such as veg?

a vitmain supplement would be take after training also

[peterj]

any ideas guys?

thanks

peter

[Austex]

There is a big debate over the use of low/high GI carbs PWO. I personally think there should be a combination of the two. After training, glycogen stores are depleted and need to be restored. Thus, carbs are necessary PWO.

[Giantz11]

There is a big debate over the use of low/high GI carbs PWO. I personally think there should be a combination of the two. After training, glycogen stores are depleted and need to be restored. Thus, carbs are necessary PWO.

This all depends on ones's pre-workout meal. Also weight training is more taxing to the ATP/CN system, high rep/edurance training are more reliant on glycogen. Hence depletion workouts are all high rep work.

[Austex]

I thought motor neurons of the CNS were directly affected by muscle fatigue...which would mean that any exercise putting stress on muscle fibers would also fatigue the CNS. Is this not how AAS benefit the user? By masking muscle fatigue, AAS allows one to train harder and longer due to only slight impacts of the sensory/motor neurons.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this were the case, by restoring glycogen stores you are indirectly restoring CNS motor neuron potential.

[Giantz11]

Muscle fatigue and glycogen are not always dependant. Muscle fatigue has to do with the CNS/ATP as well as Lactic acid build up. Regular stength training is not as dependant on glycogen as many think. High rep exercise as well as endurance exercise is primarily the main cause for glycogen depletion. Also if one ingested carbs pre-wokouk the drasically reduce the need to tap into stored muscle glycogen.

[Giantz11]

Human muscle metabolism during intermittent maximal exercise
G. C. Gaitanos, C. Williams, L. H. Boobis and S. Brooks
Department of Physical Education, Sports Science, and Recreation Management, Loughborough University, Leicestershire, United Kingdom.

Eight male subjects volunteered to take part in this study. The exercise protocol consisted of ten 6-s maximal sprints with 30 s of recovery between each sprint on a cycle ergometer. Needle biopsy samples were taken from the vastus lateralis muscle before and after the first sprint and 10 s before and immediately after the tenth sprint. The energy required to sustain the high mean power output (MPO) that was generated over the first 6-s sprint (870.0 +/- 159.2 W) was provided by an equal contribution from phosphocreatine (PCr) degradation and anaerobic glycolysis. Indeed, within the first 6-s bout of maximal exercise PCr concentration had fallen by 57% and muscle lactate concentration had increased to 28.6 mmol/kg dry wt, confirming significant glycolytic activity. However, in the tenth sprint there was no change in muscle lactate concentration even though MPO was reduced only to 73% of that generated in the first sprint. This reduced glycogenolysis occurred despite the high plasma epinephrine concentration of 5.1 +/- 1.5 nmol/l after sprint 9. In face of a considerable reduction in the contribution of anaerobic glycogenolysis to ATP production, it was suggested that, during the last sprint, power output was supported by energy that was mainly derived from PCr degradation and an increased aerobic metabolism.

[Giantz11]

Here we see that after the 6th sprint, we have reduced glycogenolysis and more dependance on PCr (phosphocreatine). Granted there is significant glycolytic activity within the first few sets, as time goes on and provided there is a break inbetween sets, ATP will be the main supplier of energy in high intensity activities such as resistance training.

[Giantz11]

http://www.athletes.com/fun/berardi29.htm

As you can see in the article above. The ATP-PC system is the primary source of energy for high intensity exercises that last up to 30 sec. This would encompass, most exercises. However we certainly know that Squats and Deads are a whole nother beast. Also shown in the above chart that the ATP-PC only needs about 3min of rest until you are ready to go it again.

Which brings up a good point, demanding exercises such as squats and deads, that place a heavy tax on all 3 systems, need to be treated differently. Which is why it might be important to drink a carbohydrate drink during the activity to help replenish lost muscle glycogen.

[Austex]

ATP is always used when resistance training...I thougth glycogen stores were what helped restore ATP levels between sets. Interesting article, thanks!

[Giantz11]

ATP is always used when resistance training...I thougth glycogen stores were what helped restore ATP levels between sets. Interesting article, thanks!

Glycogen is broken down and converted into ATP during anaerobic glycolysis. Which occurs after 30 sec. So in a way you are correct. However ATP is restored at rest using PC system. Which is why creatine is a very good supplement!

[Austex]

Glycogen is broken down and converted into ATP during anaerobic glycolysis. Which occurs after 30 sec. So in a way you are correct. However ATP is restored at rest using PC system. Which is why creatine is a very good supplement!

Ah yes, now I remember! Time to bring out the old books again, I forget the little details over time!

[Giantz11]

Ah yes, now I remember! Time to bring out the old books again, I forget the little details over time!

What do you think about the point of taking in some carbs whne you are doing prolonged high intensity exercises like deads and squats?

[Austex]

What do you think about the point of taking in some carbs whne you are doing prolonged high intensity exercises like deads and squats?

Personally, I think any "high intensity" exercise lasting over one hour ( ex. 1 1/2-2 hours) should be supplemented throughout with a carbo beverage.

On the other hand, I feel different about "high demand" exercises like squats/deads. I believe these exercises merely require adequate rest between sets. Like you stated above, ATP/Pc levels require 3 minutes to peak. As long as the subject has the proper meals pre-workout, there shouldn't be a need for a carbo beverage during exercise.

[Giantz11]

Personally, I think any "high intensity" exercise lasting over one hour ( ex. 1 1/2-2 hours) should be supplemented throughout with a carbo beverage.

On the other hand, I feel different about "high demand" exercises like squats/deads. I believe these exercises merely require adequate rest between sets. Like you stated above, ATP/Pc levels require 3 minutes to peak. As long as the subject has the proper meals pre-workout, there shouldn't be a need for a carbo beverage during exercise.

The thing is a good hard set of squats can last over 2-3 min sometimes, placing a very very high demand on glycogen.

[Austex]

The thing is a good hard set of squats can last over 2-3 min sometimes, placing a very very high demand on glycogen.

Damn! None of my sets ever last that long. Normally, I won't do more than 12 reps / set. How many are you talking about? I would think in 2-3 minutes you could nail out 50 reps!

[Giantz11]

Damn! None of my sets ever last that long. Normally, I won't do more than 12 reps / set. How many are you talking about? I would think in 2-3 minutes you could nail out 50 reps!

Well somtimes 20 and when it gets real hard at the end I take some time in between in rep as I feel like I'm going to die but 3 min might not be right

[Austex]

It only takes ATP a matter of seconds to be used up. This is also where the CP comes into play by restoring used ATP (now ADP) back into ATP. After this stage, glycogen-lactic acid is providing the energy. I don't believe the aerobic (oxidative) system takes charge until you pass the 1.5 minute area.

That being said, as long as you are under 1.5 minutes everything should be ok. If you wanted to beat it...I'd say pop a few skittles in your mouth before squatting.

Editor's Note: I will not be held responsible for choking, which can and may happen by squatting with food in your mouth.