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  1. #1
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    I don't care, I love dex

    I know this is old, but I have not been around for the whole dex PWO debate. Anyway I have had my PWO shake, using low gi carbs, and don't like it as much. The results were not the same. So i don't need some nerd in a lab coat to tell me it is not as effective. I mean I have seen studies saying that Wendys at the right time of day will help you lose weight.
    So some studies are not that important to me anyway, I listen to my body, and that is the most important thing IMO. Also I talked with King Kmali{he trains at my gym}which was kind of like talking to a wall, but anyway, he says his PWO shake always includes dex, along with most of his competitors, so If top BBer's are still using it, along with many other athlethes, I don't see why a couple of people and some tests should be trying to switch people over. I know, I know they both work, but for a newbie looking at this I have seen several threads lately putting down dex, in place for a bagel. To each his own, but lets not take these studies to heart, cause there are some bogus studies out there, and IMO this is one of them.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by kman
    I know this is old, but I have not been around for the whole dex PWO debate. Anyway I have had my PWO shake, using low gi carbs, and don't like it as much. The results were not the same. So i don't need some nerd in a lab coat to tell me it is not as effective. I mean I have seen studies saying that Wendys at the right time of day will help you lose weight.
    So some studies are not that important to me anyway, I listen to my body, and that is the most important thing IMO. Also I talked with King Kmali{he trains at my gym}which was kind of like talking to a wall, but anyway, he says his PWO shake always includes dex, along with most of his competitors, so If top BBer's are still using it, along with many other athlethes, I don't see why a couple of people and some tests should be trying to switch people over. I know, I know they both work, but for a newbie looking at this I have seen several threads lately putting down dex, in place for a bagel. To each his own, but lets not take these studies to heart, cause there are some bogus studies out there, and IMO this is one of them.



    Did King also tell you what he is currently cycling right now cuss i wanna be just like a top BB'er im not trying to bash you in anyway, Lee Preist works out at my gym and i have had this debate with him before he says he just eats, so there are many diffrent ways to PWO but i myself use whey/oats

  3. #3
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    Damn man, If I was kinda person who over looked scientific studies to listen to some1 who "looks" like he knows what hes talking about...I might as well follow religion!!!!


    One question tho u said :
    know this is old, but I have not been around for the whole dex PWO debate
    then u said:
    but lets not take these studies to heart, cause there are some bogus studies out there, and IMO this is one of them
    read em 1st then decide....did u even try low gi carbs before??

  4. #4
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    I use Dex now and will stick with it for another couple weeks and then try switching to Lower GI carbs such as a wheat or multigrain bagel and see which works best.

  5. #5
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    I am sticking with Dex for PWO as i swear by it, but starting tonight i am using Oats in PPWO.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    Damn man, If I was kinda person who over looked scientific studies to listen to some1 who "looks" like he knows what hes talking about...I might as well follow religion!!!!


    One question tho u said :

    then u said:


    read em 1st then decide....did u even try low gi carbs before??
    Yes, first few sentences, I stated I have tried using low gi carbs, and yes I have read most studies on this subject, just not on this board.. I am not saying there is a better way, just saying there could be a new study that comes out in a few months saying oats will take to long to get into your muscles and may get stored as fat. Who knows, but to say dex and malo are useless as you have in many other threads in IMO is not the right thing to do. I am an endurance athlete and have several workouts a day , so dex gets in my system nice and quick and gives me time to recover before I go back to training. Not eveyone on this board has the same goals, thats all I am saying..

  7. #7
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    Also a couple of those studies that showned no difference between high and low gi carbs postworkout, were conducted with male patients who DID NOT CONSUME FOOD 12HRS before the results were taken. Just something to think about, cause I highly doubt any of us here go 12 hrs without food intake, especially before a workout.

  8. #8
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    i dont even take a pwo shake at all, My goals are deff diff than almost everyone...but the way i look at it..the low gi carbs are healtheir and get the job done

  9. #9
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    Im not sure if I would see much of a difference right now since I am cutting and in a caloric deficit anyway. I wouldn't really gain LBM either way. I guess I'll try switching over to oats or another low GI carb when I start bulkng and see what works better for me.

  10. #10
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    i think people in general put waaayyy too much thought into this whole PWO equation..just do what works for ya and give it at least 4 - 6 weeks to make an educated decision on it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kman
    Yes, first few sentences, I stated I have tried using low gi carbs, and yes I have read most studies on this subject, just not on this board.. I am not saying there is a better way, just saying there could be a new study that comes out in a few months saying oats will take to long to get into your muscles and may get stored as fat. Who knows, but to say dex and malo are useless as you have in many other threads in IMO is not the right thing to do. I am an endurance athlete and have several workouts a day , so dex gets in my system nice and quick and gives me time to recover before I go back to training. Not eveyone on this board has the same goals, thats all I am saying..
    First off the point is there are at least studies that show insulin doesn't do anything in the way of increasing protein anabolism. There is very little on the other hand. Even your so called Dex method is based on "science" as a matter a fact everything we do is based on science. NOT Brotelligence. Its is the supplement companies which have distorted the studies and used them falsely to claim that Hi Gi is superisor. Cause guess what? Dex is cheap and you know whats more expensive, a lower Gi alternative. So please, could we stop with all the screw the studies. Not only in studies but in my Advanced Nutrition and the Human Metabolism Vol 4 textbook it also states that high levels of plasma insulin have no shown to increase protein synthesis. I'm sorry but this is just something you will need to accept until you prove otherwise. And its not like the whole Hi Gi thing was ever correct and all of a sudden new studies came along and disproved them. the Hi GI metho is based on studies done on endurance athletes and glycogen replenishment. Which means that they do not pertain to body builders. Body builders do not need to replenish glycogen stores quicker as they have no further activty they are doing. Now if you are playing soccer, or running a Trialthalon that's a different story but most of us aren't.

    So please don't use your personal preference to having sugar PWO as some kind of defense for why Hi Gi is still the way to go. There is not just one study either by the way there are many, and they are all done on trained athletes. I'm sorry this is hard to accept but from what evidence we have today, it seems that Hi Gi carbs are not needed.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kman
    Also a couple of those studies that showned no difference between high and low gi carbs postworkout, were conducted with male patients who DID NOT CONSUME FOOD 12HRS before the results were taken. Just something to think about, cause I highly doubt any of us here go 12 hrs without food intake, especially before a workout.

    This would make a very minimal difference. If anything it would support Hi Gi since the people would be more glycogen depleted.

  13. #13
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    I prefer dextrose pwo and have for 4 years.

    You'd be hard pressed to see me change anything being that this works in a platinum manner for me.

    If it ain't broke, ................................................

    ~SC~

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    I prefer dextrose pwo and have for 4 years.

    You'd be hard pressed to see me change anything being that this works in a platinum manner for me.

    If it ain't broke, ................................................

    ~SC~

    Agreed and believe me I never said it won't work. Its just I don't like when people come out and say well Dex tastes better and all the Pro's use it. So its got to be the way. The Pro's can get away with eating alomst anything and I highly doubt you would want to use Oats in conjunction with 10iu's of slin And then give the studies this studies that argument. Even Dex at some point and time had some "form" of studies. If not then how come we even use Dex, who pulled it out of their ass and said yes Dex will be good for PWO. Evything is backed by something, it's up to us to read between the lines however.

  15. #15
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    kman

    i dont agree with you but i did enjoy that comment about talking to king as like talking to a wall

    anyway have you ever thought that he and all his bb budies always use dex because they are always (most of the time) on insulin

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    First off the point is there are at least studies that show insulin doesn't do anything in the way of increasing protein anabolism. There is very little on the other hand. Even your so called Dex method is based on "science" as a matter a fact everything we do is based on science. NOT Brotelligence. Its is the supplement companies which have distorted the studies and used them falsely to claim that Hi Gi is superisor. Cause guess what? Dex is cheap and you know whats more expensive, a lower Gi alternative. So please, could we stop with all the screw the studies. Not only in studies but in my Advanced Nutrition and the Human Metabolism Vol 4 textbook it also states that high levels of plasma insulin have no shown to increase protein synthesis. I'm sorry but this is just something you will need to accept until you prove otherwise. And its not like the whole Hi Gi thing was ever correct and all of a sudden new studies came along and disproved them. the Hi GI metho is based on studies done on endurance athletes and glycogen replenishment. Which means that they do not pertain to body builders. Body builders do not need to replenish glycogen stores quicker as they have no further activty they are doing. Now if you are playing soccer, or running a Trialthalon that's a different story but most of us aren't.

    So please don't use your personal preference to having sugar PWO as some kind of defense for why Hi Gi is still the way to go. There is not just one study either by the way there are many, and they are all done on trained athletes. I'm sorry this is hard to accept but from what evidence we have today, it seems that Hi Gi carbs are not needed.
    well said giantz

  17. #17
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    Kman I have no clue where you get the idea that we claim that dextrose is BAD. I can pretty much promise that no one has claimed such a thing. There is a world of difference betwen something beeing bad and something beeing less then optimal.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    First off the point is there are at least studies that show insulin doesn't do anything in the way of increasing protein anabolism. There is very little on the other hand. Even your so called Dex method is based on "science" as a matter a fact everything we do is based on science. NOT Brotelligence. Its is the supplement companies which have distorted the studies and used them falsely to claim that Hi Gi is superisor. Cause guess what? Dex is cheap and you know whats more expensive, a lower Gi alternative. So please, could we stop with all the screw the studies. Not only in studies but in my Advanced Nutrition and the Human Metabolism Vol 4 textbook it also states that high levels of plasma insulin have no shown to increase protein synthesis. I'm sorry but this is just something you will need to accept until you prove otherwise. And its not like the whole Hi Gi thing was ever correct and all of a sudden new studies came along and disproved them. the Hi GI metho is based on studies done on endurance athletes and glycogen replenishment. Which means that they do not pertain to body builders. Body builders do not need to replenish glycogen stores quicker as they have no further activty they are doing. Now if you are playing soccer, or running a Trialthalon that's a different story but most of us aren't.

    So please don't use your personal preference to having sugar PWO as some kind of defense for why Hi Gi is still the way to go. There is not just one study either by the way there are many, and they are all done on trained athletes. I'm sorry this is hard to accept but from what evidence we have today, it seems that Hi Gi carbs are not needed.
    Well said, an once again I am not saying this is wrong, all I am saying is not everyone on this board is a bodybuilder. I use dex cause I am an endurance athlete, but in my recent post I asked who still uses dex and malto, and got answers, such as it is garbage, it is not neccesary. NOT what are your goals, are you an endurance athlete, etc. All I am saying is that some people will yield better results with a high gi carb PWO, and that is something those studies DON'T show. Like Swole said if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    Kman I have no clue where you get the idea that we claim that dextrose is BAD. I can pretty much promise that no one has claimed such a thing. There is a world of difference betwen something beeing bad and something beeing less then optimal.
    I never claimed you guys said it was bad, and cmon man look at all the recents post, that don't bash dex PWO, but don't reccomend it either.. No one is asking WHY one would use dex, they are just saying it does the same as a low gi carb, when if fact many people yield better results with dex PWO. I mean no offense, but just cause A few studies say it is the same, does not make it written in stone.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kman
    I never claimed you guys said it was bad, and cmon man look at all the recents post, that don't bash dex PWO, but don't reccomend it either.. No one is asking WHY one would use dex, they are just saying it does the same as a low gi carb, when if fact many people yield better results with dex PWO. I mean no offense, but just cause A few studies say it is the same, does not make it written in stone.
    Yeah, if someone need quick glycogen replenishment then they should use dex or malto. But I guess most of us assume that those asking questions here ask them from a bodybuilding/powerlifting point of view.
    I dont think it would make much of a difference to a endurance athleter anyway to be honest since lifting weights realy doesnt put much of a strain on the glycogen stores.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    Yeah, if someone need quick glycogen replenishment then they should use dex or malto. But I guess most of us assume that those asking questions here ask them from a bodybuilding/powerlifting point of view.
    I dont think it would make much of a difference to a endurance athleter anyway to be honest since lifting weights realy doesnt put much of a strain on the glycogen stores.
    Lifting weights alone maybe, but when combined with 5-6 more hrs of training a day, and I think there will be a strain on glycogen.

  22. #22
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    The bottom line is, if it works for you..go with it. If it does'nt..scratch it.

    Its that cut and dry.

    I prefer/recommend Dextrose for PWO as i swear by it (results don't lie) but this is my opinion.

    I am currently changing my carb source in PPWO to Oats as opposed to brown rice/sweet potatoes.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kman
    Lifting weights alone maybe, but when combined with 5-6 more hrs of training a day, and I think there will be a strain on glycogen.

    Agreed.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by muriloninja
    The bottom line is, if it works for you..go with it. If it does'nt..scratch it.

    Its that cut and dry.

    I prefer/recommend Dextrose for PWO as i swear by it (results don't lie) but this is my opinion.

    I am currently changing my carb source in PPWO to Oats as opposed to brown rice/sweet potatoes.

    But until you've given the other side a try you will never know if there is a difference.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kman
    Lifting weights alone maybe, but when combined with 5-6 more hrs of training a day, and I think there will be a strain on glycogen.
    yes. My point was that during such circumstances the carb consumption during the rest of the day is of much higher importance. But dex is most efficient when doing lots of cardio yeah.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsd67
    i think people in general put waaayyy too much thought into this whole PWO equation..just do what works for ya and give it at least 4 - 6 weeks to make an educated decision on it.
    how could you possibly put waaayyy too much thought into this subject? your pwo's are a very critical part of your muscles recovery and ability to build following intense exercise.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdh
    how could you possibly put waaayyy too much thought into this subject? your pwo's are a very critical part of your muscles recovery and ability to build following intense exercise.
    after doing 3 shows and having a whole year to bulk up and cut back down while gaining a solid 12lbs of muscle i know my body well enuf and dont feel that it's necessary to argue over dextrose versus medium GI foods. Being a trainer i know all about recovery and i have found that carb intake throughout the whole day is more crucial than the 5 minutes after your last set. though many will disagree with that it has worked for me personally. do i believe in PWO and PPWO, of course...but i dont think it has to be as difficult as this thread is making it out to be.

  28. #28
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    dont you ever wonder if you would have packed on more then 12lbs. if you would consume dex/whey for pwo? you might have the genetics that you grow easily no matter what , but even then i think you could benefit. if you havent why dont you give it a year that way and see what happens. you just a thought.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdh
    dont you ever wonder if you would have packed on more then 12lbs. if you would consume dex/whey for pwo? you might have the genetics that you grow easily no matter what , but even then i think you could benefit. if you havent why dont you give it a year that way and see what happens. you just a thought.
    that's the whole point...12 lbs or 15 lbs do i care, do i wonder, nope there are more important aspects of my life and i have done the whole dex and malto PWO and got fat with it.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsd67
    that's the whole point...12 lbs or 15 lbs do i care, do i wonder, nope there are more important aspects of my life and i have done the whole dex and malto PWO and got fat with it.

    I agree with you 100%. Allthough I love analysing stuff I think pwo nutrition has realy been overblown. Especialy when it seems like just about any carb can do the job. If people like dextrose they should go with dextrose, if they like bagels go with bagels. Doesnt make a huge difference either way.

  31. #31
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    exactly...im not saying it's bad, im just saying it wasnt optimal for me and i dont really want to beat myself up over having the perfect PWO each and every single time i workout...it takes the fun away from why we all do this.

  32. #32
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    I think this whole issue of high gi vs low gi is only relative to the intensity of your workout. If it takes you an hr and a half to complete a bi/tri workout, taking dextrose afterwards may not be a good idea (at least if you are concerned about gaining fat).

    On the other hand, if your goal is to build muscle (while preventing fat gain) I strongly think a huge spike in your insulin is critical following an intense workout (ex leg day). A high gi carb such as dextrose will quickly send the nutrients to your muscles and replenish glyogen levels. No other time of the day is more important for building muscle, period. Low gi carbs will work at this time, but not to the same effect as a high gi carb.

    As I said it a million times before, and its worth repeating again...no one has the same genetic makeup and we all react differently to different types of foods. The trick is finding out what works best for you. If you can get away with jacking up your insulin after training your forearms than more power to you...But in general, most people can't.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by usualsuspect
    I think this whole issue of high gi vs low gi is only relative to the intensity of your workout. If it takes you an hr and a half to complete a bi/tri workout, taking dextrose afterwards may not be a good idea (at least if you are concerned about gaining fat).

    On the other hand, if your goal is to build muscle (while preventing fat gain) I strongly think a huge spike in your insulin is critical following an intense workout (ex leg day). A high gi carb such as dextrose will quickly send the nutrients to your muscles and replenish glyogen levels. No other time of the day is more important for building muscle, period. Low gi carbs will work at this time, but not to the same effect as a high gi carb.

    As I said it a million times before, and its worth repeating again...no one has the same genetic makeup and we all react differently to different types of foods. The trick is finding out what works best for you. If you can get away with jacking up your insulin after training your forearms than more power to you...But in general, most people can't.

    Yes but healthy people have the same physiology. That does not change! The way insulin acts in your body is the same as it acts in mine. Only a diabetic etc... would be different. The fact is there is no proof that spiking insulin helps protein synthesis, you'd be hard pressed to prove that fact. I'm not even quite sure where people get that from. I can show you a multitude of studies that show increasing plasma insulin will NOT do anything for protein synthesis. Glycogen synthesis maybe, but that is not what we are looking for, we are looking for muscle growth. And the fact of the matter is amino acids stimulate muscle growth not insulin, Leucine primiarily.

  34. #34
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    so explain to me what it is that carries nutrients to the muscle cell?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdh
    so explain to me what it is that carries nutrients to the muscle cell?
    glucose is transporter into muscle cells via the glut-4 membrane protein. The glut-4 protein goes to the surface of the cell and "opens" it for glucose transport when insulin is present.

    amino acids in the other hand is not that simple, they are transporter by many different amino acid transport proteins and as far as I know they are insulin independant. Workouts in itself if I dont remember wrong increases both amino acid and glucose transfere into muscle cells and that action I know is completley insulin independant.

  36. #36
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    keep in mind to separate the natural peaks of insulin you can achive with dextrose and the MUCH higher peaks you can achieve by injecting insulin. The second is anabolic , the first is not.

    Insulin is still needed offcourse. But there is no difference in gains betwen the low, steady, long lasting insulin peak from low gi carbs and the quick and short peak of dextrose.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdh
    so explain to me what it is that carries nutrients to the muscle cell?

    Sure I'll explain. Insulin 's primary actions are carried out in the "fed" state. Insulin causes translocation of Glut-4 receptors on the muscle cells. This is what allows nutrient permeabilty into the muscle cells. Which is also why insulin is very important in other time frames aside from PWO too maintain muscle anabolism. However as you will see what I have noted before I said these are insulins mechanisims in the FED state. PWO is a whole nother ball game, because guess what? You have already induced Glut-4 translocation by performin weight training. Meaning the action of insulin is not needed nearly to the degree in which most think it is. Now I never said insulin is not need at all, cause it is. However Whey alone will produce enough insulin to transport all nutrients efficiently. Increases in plasma insulin within the physilogical range does not improve protein synthesis. Somewhere along the lines brotelligence got mixed up in all of this and insulin became something it is not. Supraphysiological levels, well that is breaking the rules and that is far far different. Here a just a few studies that show insulin does not improve protein synthesis:

    Insulin sensitivity of protein and glucose metabolism in human forearm skeletal muscle.

    Louard RJ, Fryburg DA, Gelfand RA, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06510.

    Physiologic increases of insulin promote net amino acid uptake and protein anabolism in forearm skeletal muscle by restraining protein degradation. The sensitivity of this process to insulin is not known. Using the forearm perfusion method, we infused insulin locally in the brachial artery at rates of 0.00 (s****e control), 0.01, 0.02, 0.035, or 0.05 mU/min per kg for 150 min to increase local forearm plasma insulin concentration by 0, approximately 20, approximately 35, approximately 60, and approximately 120 microU/ml (n = 35). L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine and L-[1-14C]leucine were infused systemically, and the net forearm balance, rate of appearance (Ra) and rate of disposal (R(d)) of phenylalanine and leucine, and forearm glucose balance were measured basally and in response to insulin infusion. Compared to s****e, increasing rates of insulin infusion progressively increased net forearm glucose uptake from 0.9 mumol/min per 100 ml (s****e) to 1.0, 1.8, 2.4, and 4.7 mumol/min per 100 ml forearm, respectively. Net forearm balance for phenylalanine and leucine was significantly less negative than basal (P < 0.01 for each) in response to the lowest dose insulin infusion, 0.01 mU/min per kg, and all higher rates of insulin infusion. Phenylalanine and leucine R(a) declined by approximately 38 and 40% with the lowest dose insulin infusion. Higher doses of insulin produced no greater effect (decline in R(a) varied between 26 and 42% for phenylalanine and 30-50% for leucine). In contrast, R(d) for phenylalanine and leucine did not change with insulin. We conclude that even modest increases of plasma insulin can markedly suppress proteolysis, measured by phenylalanine R(a), in human forearm skeletal muscle. Further increments of insulin within the physiologic range augment glucose uptake but have little additional effect on phenylalanine R(a) or balance. These results suggest that proteolysis in human skeletal muscle is more sensitive than glucose uptake to physiologic increments in insulin.


    Insulin and insulin-like growth factor-I enhance human skeletal muscle protein anabolism during hyperaminoacidemia by different mechanisms.

    Fryburg DA, Jahn LA, Hill SA, Oliveras DM, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville 22908, USA.

    Insulin inhibits proteolysis in human muscle thereby increasing protein anabolism. In contrast, IGF-I promotes muscle protein anabolism principally by stimulating protein synthesis. As increases or decreases of plasma amino acids may affect protein turnover in muscle and also alter the muscle's response to insulin and/or IGF-I, this study was designed to examine the effects of insulin and IGF-I on human muscle protein turnover during hyperaminoacidemia. We measured phenylalanine balance and [3H]-phenylalanine kinetics in both forearms of 22 postabsorptive adults during a continuous [3H] phenylalanine infusion. Measurements were made basally and at 3 and 6 h after beginning a systemic infusion of a balanced amino acid mixture that raised arterial phenylalanine concentration about twofold. Throughout the 6 h, 10 subjects received insulin locally (0.035 mU/min per kg) into one brachial artery while 12 other subjects were given intraaterial IGF-I (100 ng/min per kg) to raise insulin or IGF-I concentrations, respectively, in the infused arm. The contralateral arm in each study served as a simultaneous control for the effects of amino acids (aa) alone. Glucose uptake and lactate release increased in the insulin- and IGF-I-infused forearms (P < 0.01) but did not change in the contralateral (aa alone) forearm in either study. In the aa alone arm in both studies, hyperaminoacidemia reversed the postabsorptive net phenylalanine release by muscle to a net uptake (P < 0.025, for each) due to a stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. In the hormone-infused arms, the addition of either insulin or IGF-I promoted greater positive shifts in phenylalanine balance than the aa alone arm (P < 0.01). With insulin, the enhanced anabolism was due to inhibition of protein degradation (P < 0.02), whereas IGF-I augmented anabolism by a further stimulation of protein synthesis above aa alone (P < 0.02). We conclude that: (a) hyperaminoacidemia specifically stimulates muscle protein synthesis; (b) insulin, even with hyperaminoacidemia, improves muscle protein balance solely by inhibiting proteolysis; and (c) hyperaminoacidemia combined with IGF-I enhances protein synthesis more than either alone

  38. #38
    Giantz11's Avatar
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    Here you can see above insulin 's primary action is suppressing muscle breakdown (proteolysis). And in the abstact above you can see that it only takes Modest plasma levels to achieve this. Also noting that:

    We conclude that: (a) hyperaminoacidemia specifically stimulates muscle protein synthesis

  39. #39
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    that seem to have shut everyone up

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