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Thread: The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by firsttimer22 View Post
    so top,

    the keto you posted, if followed correctly, could yeild single digit body fat numbers?
    YES, but so will a 40/40/20 and alot of other diets out there. Im not trying to say this is the only diet that works. I happen to also like 40/40/20. Although i think this is one of the best for muscle preservation and also it helps people feal like they are cheating so mentally it helps also.

    This diet has also been around for a very long long time.

    Also they put people on KETO diets that have epileptic seizures,just an interesting bonus!
    Last edited by **TOP**; 01-21-2010 at 01:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post
    thanks top , this info is what i definetely needed. Just finished bulking up and want to get rid of my lower belly fat. Couple questions if you can help me out.

    Whats the formula for calculating how much good fat is needed per 1lb of body weight?the best thing to do is try and make fat 65-70% of your daily cals sun-thurs with protein being25-30%

    also, ive been eating lean chicken, salmon, and egg whites for protein. For fats ive been just taking 2-3 tablespoons of flax seed oil. Can i eat pepperoni? Are fats in pepperoni acceptable as good fats to get as lean as you? yes pepperoni is fine so is summer sausage

    can you pm me your diet eating plan too? anything thats on a keto grocery list!
    my goal is to get into the single digits.
    5'9"
    204lbs
    i dont know my correct body fat percentage but i will try to find out tomarro. I dont want to make up a number. post some pics the guys are pretty good at hitting it

    thanks ,
    chris
    top~

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    YES, but so will a 40/40/20 and alot of other diets out there. Im not trying to say this is the only diet that works. I happen to also like 40/40/20. Although i think this is one of the best for muscle preservation and also it helps people feal like they are cheating so mentally it helps also.

    This diet has also been around for a very long long time.

    Also they put people on KETO diets that have epileptic seizures,just an interesting bonus!
    Glad you inserted this caveat. I see so many threads lately where people think you have to do a keto diet to get lean. 4-6% bodyfat is still very attainable with a moderate carb diet.

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    O one thing that the article didnt mention ,that i do and should everyone wanting to experiment with this, is to LOAD CREATINE WITH THE CARB LOAD!! Creatine needs a transport system and you may as well take the advantage to give it a free ride along with your bagels and captain crunch!
    Last edited by **TOP**; 01-21-2010 at 02:14 PM.

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    heres my pics , what is my body fat percentage? pics were taken just now using my iphone and i was flexing. Ive never been in the single digits and that is my goal for the summer.

    Chris
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....-cid_2f735449-636f-4481-a0a2-df91d2527cad.jpg   The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....-cid_b526a16c-4e52-471b-9d2c-c313310ebce5.jpg   The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet.....-cid_17388fe5-c46a-43a8-afc2-eb21f8069c46.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    O one thing that the article didnt mention ,that i do and should everyone wanting to experiment with this, is to LOAD CREATINE WITH THE CARB LOAD!! Creatine needs a transport system and you may as well take the advantage to give it a free ride along with your bagels and captain crunch!
    Just so I understand, you are only taking the creatine on your load days or you take it everyday but increase it on the carb load days??

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    ^I take it only on my carb load days around 3-5 grams with each 2 hour meal...TOP

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    The formula for the carb load is also debatable, but from what ive seen most do a 14-16 grams of carbs per LEAN BODY MASS in kgs so if your lean mass is say 150 you divide that by 2.2 which =68/ 68 multiplied by "we will say 14" =952 carbs divide by 24 hours which is 12 meals would be 79 carbs per meal.

    Like i said there are many variations of the carb load but this is probably the easiest. So you can see how your cals will skyrocket depending on your lean body mass,this is why i said mine can reach over 10,000 in a period/ 952 carbs by4=3808cals just from carbs alone another 20-30 %from protein and the rest from fat and you have a a loaded weapon!!

    If this write up confuses you ill try to help with the formula better but its looks easy as i can get it!




    CARB LOAD RULES


    STAGE 1 iNITIAL 24 HOURS
    Feedings-12
    carbs-16x lean bodyweight in kg
    Type -glucose polymers and startches(malto dextrin is what i use)

    Meal 1-4 -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugard or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.

    MEALS 5-8-These should be liquid carbs and solid high glycemic carbs(such as cornflakes) Eat 1.5 g of carbsper kg of lean bodyweight at each meal

    Meal 9-12-Finally you get to eat some real food eat.5grams of solid starches and some liquid carbs per kg of lbm at each meal

    STAGE2
    Feedings-12
    Type-Mixed,primarily starches

    MEAL1-4-Each meal 1gram carbs per kg of lbm SINCE INSULIN SENSETIVITY IS DECLINING YOU SHOULD EAT MORE SOLID CARBS AND PROTEINS!

    MEAL5-8-Eat .75 grams of carbs per lbm of normal food (rice,pasta,potatoes)

    MEAL9-12-.5GRAMS OF CARBS. Since you want to begin lowering blood glucose before you begin another week of carb depletion,you should eat just the opposite of what you would expect! Go back tosimple liquid carbs and proteins.Basically you want a sugar crash to get you into low blood sugar. Yes insulin ishigher but the actual amount of carbs per meal is quite low.

    TRY YOUR BEST TO STAY AWAY FROM FRUCTOSE AND SUCROSE,THESE REFILL LIVER THE MOST AND THATS WILL IN TURN TAKE YOU LONGER TO DEPLETE YOUR STORAGE.

    By following this formula everyone will hit there 16grams over the duration no matter what difference you have in LBM from the next guy. I hope this helps people with carb loading...TOP
    Last edited by **TOP**; 02-24-2010 at 11:01 AM.
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    Ketostix

    i bought some ketostix at CVS today and checked it. It was the first time and i was kinda shaky and i pissed all over my hand. The strip was close to 80. That means im using fat as fuel right? Wonder how dark it will be tomarro. Did some grocery shopping today also and picked up food that i never thought id be eating. Cheddar cheese, 85/15 burgers ,tuna <-this i can understand) , mayo , butter.

    Question , on the ketostix directions it says NOTE: if the test shows a moderate or large amount of ketone, call your doctor or diabetes educator.
    Is there any thing bad that im not aware of by doing this diet? What type of people are watching ketones for other reasons?

    Thanks,
    Chris

  11. #51
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    ^Diabetics can fall into something called Diabetic Ketoacidosis,if you arent diabetic you dont have to worry about it.Also the severity of the level of ketosis is irrelevant also if you are showing just a little bit that means you are in ketosis. But like ive said ketosis is just the side effect of a fat no carb diet dont lose sleep wondering if you are in ketosis or not,your body will burn fat always if the carbs are low long enough...TOP

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    hey so im gonna test out the keto diet for two weeks starting monday i just have a few questions. The reason im doing it for two weaks is just to test it out, about 8 weeks from summer time i will start it up again.

    Anyway, I just have a couple questions...

    1. whens the best day to come off a keto diet? and how should you go about upping your carbs back to normal?

    2. how nessecary is it to have close to 1000 carbs over the carb load period? (im ~185lbs, but im guessing im already about 10,11%bf, so going by ur formula im guessing i should be around there) Im not very used to having high carbs, i usually only eat them in the morning and pre/post workout, and the rest of my meals are usually around 10-15 carbs.


    3. When ketostix say you are in ketosis, this means you body IS using fat as its primary source of fuel?

    I may have other questions.. but for now this is all i can think of

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    hey so im gonna test out the keto diet for two weeks starting monday i just have a few questions. The reason im doing it for two weaks is just to test it out, about 8 weeks from summer time i will start it up again.

    Anyway, i just have a couple questions...

    1. Whens the best day to come off a keto diet? And how should you go about upping your carbs back to normal? whenever i assume,but if i had to say it would be after the carb load.2. How nessecary is it to have close to 1000 carbs over the carb load period? (im ~185lbs, but im guessing im already about 10,11%bf, so going by ur formula im guessing i should be around there) actually going by the formula you are exactly 888 carbs divided by lets say 12 meals thats 74 carbs.the whole point of the carb load is to achieve glycogen supercompensation. Im not very used to having high carbs, i usually only eat them in the morning and pre/post workout, and the rest of my meals are usually around 10-15 carbs. then it should be easier for you to adjust during the weekto the keto diet thats a plus

    3. When ketostix say you are in ketosis, this means you body is using fat as its primary source of fuel? yes in a nutshell

    i may have other questions.. But for now this is all i can think of
    top~

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    hey so im gonna test out the keto diet for two weeks starting monday i just have a few questions. The reason im doing it for two weaks is just to test it out, about 8 weeks from summer time i will start it up again.

    Anyway, I just have a couple questions...

    1. whens the best day to come off a keto diet? and how should you go about upping your carbs back to normal?
    2. how nessecary is it to have close to 1000 carbs over the carb load period? (im ~185lbs, but im guessing im already about 10,11%bf, so going by ur formula im guessing i should be around there) Im not very used to having high carbs, i usually only eat them in the morning and pre/post workout, and the rest of my meals are usually around 10-15 carbs.


    3. When ketostix say you are in ketosis, this means you body IS using fat as its primary source of fuel?

    I may have other questions.. but for now this is all i can think of
    id like to know the answer to that one

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    alright, thanks top.

    The only one i am having trouble with is when to get ur carbs back to normal. I mean if you load up 900 carbs over two days i fee like having even one carb the next day i would wanna puke, also i dont wanna pack on the lbs as soon as the diet is done, even though i have a pretty decent diet to go back to after the keto.

    any suggestions when the best time would be? maybe cut carbs in half on the carb load since i wont be going into the keto diet the next week, or right after my full body workout on friday load up on carbs for the next couple meals of the day and then og back to the reg diet on sat untill i decide to start the keto diet again?

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    I read this somewhere and I don't know if it is completely true so correct me if I am wrong.

    One thing that isn't mentioned in the original post is that if you eat too much protein your body will turn the protein into glycogen, knocking you out of Ketosis. So your macros have to be watched correct?

    The source:
    http://www.davedraper.com/ketogenic-basics.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    alright, thanks top.

    The only one i am having trouble with is when to get ur carbs back to normal. I mean if you load up 900 carbs over two days i fee like having even one carb the next day i would wanna puke, also i dont wanna pack on the lbs as soon as the diet is done, even though i have a pretty decent diet to go back to after the keto.

    any suggestions when the best time would be? maybe cut carbs in half on the carb load since i wont be going into the keto diet the next week, or right after my full body workout on friday load up on carbs for the next couple meals of the day and then og back to the reg diet on sat untill i decide to start the keto diet again?
    Do the carb load,finish it saturday,do 40/40/20 sunday. Its kinda ridiculous to think you will explode if you eat more carbs.Just train heavy the following week. Although doing this for 2 weeks isnt going to do much for you,thats actually the transition period,so dont be suprised if it feels like you have the flu!! Your body its trying to change from a glucose system to a fat burning system...TOP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure View Post
    I read this somewhere and I don't know if it is completely true so correct me if I am wrong.

    One thing that isn't mentioned in the original post is that if you eat too much protein your body will turn the protein into glycogen, knocking you out of Ketosis. So your macros have to be watched correct?

    The source:
    http://www.davedraper.com/ketogenic-basics.html
    This is why i have stated to keep your fats 65-70%! But you will always have that jackass that wont listen and kling to his dear sweet protein and wont let it go because hes afraid that if he drops protein to low he will lose muscle!

    Protein can be converted to glycogen,but with the fat being high enough you wont have to worry about that because it will use the fat and spare the pro,does that make sense?

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    Just got a PM asking what the friday pre depletement menu looks like.Should i eat all the fat then start carbing or what?..Good question! Today is friday,the day of the depletement workout, wake up and eat just like you did thursday up until the workout after the workout the keto diet goes out the window and you start carbing!! so if its lunch time you will eat your keto food then you plan on working out at 2:30 you get done working out at 4immediately start carbing.And the reason for the depletement isnt just more glycogen deficit,its to also boost insulin sensitivity,this would be a great place to use your insulin shots if you had some!

    Ive also seen where people will eat 2 peices or so of fruit to kick them out of ketosis and get there body to start burning glycogen again to further deplete those stores.

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    Hope this isnt a stupid question , its ok to still drink a gallon of water a day right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post
    Hope this isnt a stupid question , its ok to still drink a gallon of water a day right?
    There is no such thing as a stupid question!!

    Water is actually more important in the carb load period,because it is estimated that every gram of glycogen stored is associated with about 2.7g of water. This is why watching the scale is pointless. I can weigh friday at 212lbs and by monday im 219lbs...TOP

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    TOP, I workout M-F hitting one body part a day, I hit it very hard and heavy (always felt this worked best for me). I also work out in the am about 1 hour after meal one. I do HIIT cardo after my workout and this just gives me enough time to get to work. If I was to continue this would I want to start carb loading after my Friday workout??? I was thinking of staying on Keto all of Friday and then carb load Sat-Sun. Thanks

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    so, my cal intake per day is ~1700 according to one of those calculatores or w.e. If I were to do 65% fat and 35% protein and drop one or the other down 1% for my very small amount of carbs through out the day it would end up like this:

    1700 calories

    65% fat = 1105 cal = 112g
    35% protein = 595 cal = 149g

    does this seem correct?
    Also, say i dont follow that exactly... instead of 112g fat i have like 110 and instead of 149g protein i have like 170 will this mess everything up and the protein will turn to glycogen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgarr View Post
    top, i workout m-f hitting one body part a day, i hit it very hard and heavy (always felt this worked best for me). I also work out in the am about 1 hour after meal one. I do hiit cardo after my workout and this just gives me enough time to get to work. If i was to continue this would i want to start carb loading after my friday workout??? I was thinking of staying on keto all of friday and then carb load sat-sun. Thanks
    that would be fine but you need to do a full body workout saturday morning. I dont recommend starting this carb load with out working out first!

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    so, my cal intake per day is ~1700 according to one of those calculatores or w.e. If i were to do 65% fat and 35% protein and drop one or the other down 1% for my very small amount of carbs through out the day it would end up like this:

    1700 calories

    65% fat = 1105 cal = 112g
    35% protein = 595 cal = 149g

    does this seem correct?
    Also, say i dont follow that exactly... Instead of 112g fat i have like 110 and instead of 149g protein i have like 170 will this mess everything up and the protein will turn to glycogen?
    whats your goal, Building phase? Is the reason you wanna bump protein to get more cals? If anything i would think you would want to reduce fat to 60% reduce pro to 30% and have the 10%left over to have carbs during the week,that would be roughly 40 carbs a day. What are you trying to do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    that would be fine but you need to do a full body workout saturday morning. I dont recommend starting this carb load with out working out first!
    I might have missed it, so just send me the link if I did, but why do you think it's necessary to work out before refeeding?


    Quote Originally Posted by edgarr View Post
    TOP, I workout M-F hitting one body part a day, I hit it very hard and heavy (always felt this worked best for me). I also work out in the am about 1 hour after meal one. I do HIIT cardo after my workout and this just gives me enough time to get to work. If I was to continue this would I want to start carb loading after my Friday workout??? I was thinking of staying on Keto all of Friday and then carb load Sat-Sun. Thanks
    ^Also, regarding the above post, what is your take on a two day carb load/refeed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by D7M View Post
    I might have missed it, so just send me the link if I did, but why do you think it's necessary to work out before refeeding?

    The variation that i go by suggest that depleting prior to the carb load will increase insulin sensetivity,like we all know,and shuttle the nutrients to the worked area hintz the full body depletement,which also digs deeper into glycogen stores helping out with the future GLYCOGEN SUPERCOMPENSATION


    ^Also, regarding the above post, what is your take on a two day carb load/refeed?
    Most of the carb loads ive seen have been done between 2-2.5 days depending on if you eat throughout the night. I do not suggest depleting,staying on keto for the rest of the day,then the following day carbing up. I have never seen a variation do that,it makes no sense. The 2 day carb up, refeed, whatever you wanna call it, is an average of what it takes people. In the book "BODYOPUS" the author suggest carbing friday around 4 in the afternoon to sunday around 4-6 in the afternoon eating every 2 hours throughout the night and also using glucose disposal agents(ALA,Vanadyl sulfate,chromium etc...)

    That make sense Bodyguard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    whats your goal, Building phase? Is the reason you wanna bump protein to get more cals? If anything i would think you would want to reduce fat to 60% reduce pro to 30% and have the 10%left over to have carbs during the week,that would be roughly 40 carbs a day. What are you trying to do?
    Well, the onyl reason im asking is because it would be difficult to measure out everything to fit into a 65/35 ratio of fat and protein. I wanted to know if going off a little bit of it like having 200g protein instead of 150 if it would turn to glycogen?

    If so, then i will just have to suck it up and make sure i do it 100% correct.
    Also, if i had 10% carbs which would equal out to about 40 would that be too many for the day? I was thinking about keeping it 30 or under. I am going to buy ketostix though just ot make sure im in ketosis.

    I have pretty decent abs, however some lighting they are OK and other lighting they are pretty amazing.. im trying to make it so they look great in all different lighting, but i also want ot maintain my LBM or even increase it a little, but if i cant increase then def just maintain it because u do look bigger when ur cut even though u technically are smaller... or it looks that way to me anyway.

    What I rly need explained ot me is if I weigh 185 lbs, say about 165 of it is LBM (that would be 11% bf ), what is the MAX protein i should have in the day? and what is the LEAST amount of fat i should have in the day?

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    In the book "BODYOPUS" the author suggest carbing friday around 4 in the afternoon to sunday around 4-6 in the afternoon eating every 2 hours throughout the night and also using glucose disposal agents(ALA,Vanadyl sulfate,chromium etc...)
    What does that mean glucose disposal agents?

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    that would be fine but you need to do a full body workout saturday morning. I dont recommend starting this carb load with out working out first!
    Sorry for all the questions just trying to learn, in the end this will take some trial and error to get the results I'm happy with but......The Sat morning full body workout, can I follow it with cardio or stay away from cardio? I use to do yoga on Sat, throw that out the window? Do I start my carb load my first meal after the workout or later in the day?

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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    well, the onyl reason im asking is because it would be difficult to measure out everything to fit into a 65/35 ratio of fat and protein.no it wouldnt use fitday.com input everything you wanna eat and it will give you a %!! i wanted to know if going off a little bit of it like having 200g protein instead of 150 if it would turn to glycogen? no it wont turn to glycogen,i beleive the only way it would do that is if you went low on carbs and fat. It has to because there is no energy source so it takes the pro to make one!
    if so, then i will just have to suck it up and make sure i do it 100% correct.
    Also, if i had 10% carbs which would equal out to about 40 would that be too many for the day? I was thinking about keeping it 30 or under. I am going to buy ketostix though just ot make sure im in ketosis. this will be trial and error some people can do higher carbs and still achieve the goal,i try to stay around 20 carbs a day though. I was just trying to get you to understand that you could raise carbs instead of protein and still be fine
    i have pretty decent abs, however some lighting they are ok and other lighting they are pretty amazing.. Im trying to make it so they look great in all different lighting, but i also want ot maintain my lbm or even increase it a little, but if i cant increase then def just maintain it because u do look bigger when ur cut even though u technically are smaller... Or it looks that way to me anyway. without pics ill have to take your word for it.lol!
    what i rly need explained ot me is if i weigh 185 lbs, say about 165 of it is lbm (that would be 11% bf ), what is the max protein i should have in the day? And what is the least amount of fat i should have in the day? shoot for 60-65% fat and 30-35 pro,there is no magical number,your calories will dictate what happens. I wish i could say take in 144.12362 grams of fat and you will be shredded but it doesnt work that way !!
    ~top~

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgarr View Post
    Sorry for all the questions just trying to learn, in the end this will take some trial and error to get the results I'm happy with but......The Sat morning full body workout, can I follow it with cardio or stay away from cardio? I use to do yoga on Sat, throw that out the window? Do I start my carb load my first meal after the workout or later in the day?
    After 6 fuc*in days without carbs ,working out heavy mon-wed ,cardio during the week, and the full body depletement workout on friday, i highly doubt you will give a flyin shit about cardio!! There are variations ive seen where guys train heavy on there carb load days,but i dont i carb up and rest,thats it! Remember you are trying to achieve GLYCOGEN SUPERCOMPENSATION you can do enough cardio during the week refill the gas tank on the carb up day and dont drive the car!

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    Most of the carb loads ive seen have been done between 2-2.5 days depending on if you eat throughout the night. I do not suggest depleting,staying on keto for the rest of the day,then the following day carbing up. I have never seen a variation do that,it makes no sense. The 2 day carb up, refeed, whatever you wanna call it, is an average of what it takes people. In the book "BODYOPUS" the author suggest carbing friday around 4 in the afternoon to sunday around 4-6 in the afternoon eating every 2 hours throughout the night and also using glucose disposal agents(ALA,Vanadyl sulfate,chromium etc...)

    That make sense Bodyguard?
    Makes perfect sense, bro.

    But just knowing how my body reacts, and what works for me, I would never refeed for more than one day.

    Shit, after my refeeds I'm up at least 8-10lbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    After 6 fuc*in days without carbs ,working out heavy mon-wed ,cardio during the week, and the full body depletement workout on friday, i highly doubt you will give a flyin shit about cardio!! There are variations ive seen where guys train heavy on there carb load days,but i dont i carb up and rest,thats it! Remember you are trying to achieve GLYCOGEN SUPERCOMPENSATION you can do enough cardio during the week refill the gas tank on the carb up day and dont drive the car!
    ^I agree, and actually think cardio on refeed days are counter productive. you want to be restoring glycogen (among other things), so the last thing you want to be doing is cardio.

  34. #74
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    ah k i am starting to feel a little better now, so as long as i keep my amount of fat over say..... 100-120g a day my body will use that as fuel and not my protein, even if i have close to 200g of protein?

    this would be a 53/47 fat to protein ratio.

    The reaosn im asking is because I dont see how you couldnt have that much protein if you are only having about 6% of cals from carbs.. and i guess if i were to have about 6% cals from carbs it would be more like a 50/44/6 ratio
    Last edited by americanoak; 01-22-2010 at 10:57 AM.

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    edgarr is offline Member
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    Cool. Would it be safe to stay on this diet/routine for 12-16 weeks.

  36. #76
    **TOP**'s Avatar
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    ^The fat spares the protein,and your fat needs to be higher than what it looks like you have at the moment!

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgarr View Post
    cool. Would it be safe to stay on this diet/routine for 12-16 weeks.
    yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by **TOP** View Post
    ^The fat spares the protein,and your fat needs to be higher than what it looks like you have at the moment!
    So how high should they be around? 120g? thatd be about 63% if i was on a 1700 cal diet

  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanoak View Post
    so how high should they be around? 120g? Thatd be about 63% if i was on a 1700 cal diet
    isnt that what ive said like 15 times! Fat at 60-65%

  40. #80
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    lol ok ok sorry i just like to be extra sure.

    Have u ever taken carb cheaters while on this diet? If not, do you know anything about them, would they actually stop the glycogen from being refilled or do they just stop insulin spikes?

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