the long road back

**chopchoi** · 07-18-2013, 11:44 PM

Hi, I originally posted this in the steroid forum, but they said to re-post here.

In 2008, I was 35, 5'7", 170 and I looked good. I could bench 7 reps of 225 and do about 18 pull ups. Then it got to where I wasn't making gains, I didn't know where to get gear, so I decided not going to the gym and eating whatever I wanted wasn't such a bad way to live.

5 years later, I'm 225, and whenever I run into someone I haven't seen in a while, they look at me like "WTF happened?"

Back then, I watched what I ate at every meal but dinner, because my wife cooks what she and my daughter like, not what's best for my fitness regimen. I think it's important to eat dinner as a family, and if I don't allow myself a little pleasure from food I will go ape shit. I know these dinners will make it take longer to reach my goals, but it keeps me sane so I think it's worth it. I got good results from this in the past, so that's what I've gone back to doing.

On a typical day I'll eat something like this:

Breakfast: A smoothie with skim milk, protein powder, a spoonful of peanut butter and a banana, or maybe a protein bar.
Lunch: Salad with chicken and veggies, non fat dressing, or a burrito bowl from Chipotle with brown rice, chicken, beans, veggies, corn, and salsa. No sour cream, cheese or guac.
Mid-day snack: 6 inch sub from Subway on whole wheat, with lean meat, veggies, and mustard. No cheese.
Dinner: Whatever my wife makes. She's Asian, so it's lots of white rice and fried fish with veggies and soup; sometimes she makes Italian or steak because that's what my daughter likes.
Evening snack: protein powder and skim milk.

I also take fish oil and a multivitamin, and will go back on creatine soon.

I'm hitting the gym 5x a week and doing 45 min of cardio (I hear more than that will cause serious catabolization). I prefer low impact, so I do the elliptical since afik that's the best low-impact way to burn calories. I set it to 10 incline and 10 resistance (20 is max). For weights, I only do about 8 sets a day, my split is : Day 1, back; Day 2, legs (squats and calf raises); Day 3, chest and triceps; Day 4, legs (deadlift and leg press); Day 5 shoulders and biceps. I'm not doing abs yet, since they're not going to show anyway. I think I'll start them when I'm closer to my target weight.

The good news is I haven't lost as much strength as I thought I would. My first day back in the gym I got 165 up for 10 reps. After one month, I can do 180 x 10. Not bad for 5 years off. The problem is, during that month I only lost 5 pounds. At this rate, it will take a year to get back where I was. If that's what it takes so be it, but I would love to know if there is something I can take to accelerate fat loss.

Also, I've decided that this time I am going to try cycling. I'm not sure when I should start my first cycle, though. I think now is too soon because I'm still getting over the rust from not working out in a while. I am thinking I should start it once I am almost at my desired weight. If my goal is to get back to 170, maybe I should start my first cycle at 185?

**-KJ-** · 07-19-2013, 01:23 AM

What is your full set of stats now??

It was a long winded post so ill answer what stuck out to me!

For fat kiss your diet is poor to be kind :-).. Subway, burrito? It's all poor IMO. A decent diet would get you to your goals in 12 weeks. I'm not sure if your diet will get you anywhere! Remember 5 years ago u where 5 years younger!

You eat what your wife cooks... Man up and cook your own food like 95% of the guys here! Fail to prepare and prepare to fail.

I wouldn't start a cycle until you reach your goal! That gives you time to research and truly understand dieting and nutrition.

My advice get a decent diet posted up with macro nutrients for all meals.

We can take it from there!

**bazzaman** · 07-19-2013, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by -KJ-

What is your full set of stats now??

It was a long winded post so ill answer what stuck out to me!

For fat kiss your diet is poor to be kind :-).. Subway, burrito? It's all poor IMO. A decent diet would get you to your goals in 12 weeks. I'm not sure if your diet will get you anywhere! Remember 5 years ago u where 5 years younger!

You eat what your wife cooks... Man up and cook your own food like 95% of the guys here! Fail to prepare and prepare to fail.

I wouldn't start a cycle until you reach your goal! That gives you time to research and truly understand dieting and nutrition.

My advice get a decent diet posted up with macro nutrients for all meals.

We can take it from there!

Great post KJ! I cant agree with you more.

Welcome to the forum, ChopChoi! Look forward to following your process.

**-KJ-** · 07-20-2013, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by bazzaman

Great post KJ! I cant agree with you more.

Welcome to the forum, ChopChoi! Look forward to following your process.

Cheers bazz! It's just honesty really :-)

**chopchoi** · 07-20-2013, 11:35 PM

Thanks for responding KJ. What stats do you want? I'm 5'7" 220, about 35% BF.

As far as macronutrients, my understanding is that a macronutrient is an unprocessed whole food, right? I think my diet has lots of them: my shake uses natural peanut butter, skim milk and bananas, the Chipotle burrito bowl has a lot of them: Grilled chicken, brown rice, black beans, and salsa made with tomatoes and corn (maybe I should skip the veggies since they are probably cooked in oil). The bread and meat in the subway sub are not macro, but I figure it only has 6 grams of fat, so it can't be too bad.

A lot of it has to do with time also. I leave for work at 6:45 a.m., get home at 7:45 p.m., spend an hour with my family, then leave for the gym at 8:45 and get home at 11:30, so there isn't a lot of time for cooking.

Also, I know on internet advice forums, a lot of people think you need to be 100% dedicated or you shouldn't even bother. I'm not sure I agree with that. I mean, if you are right that if I give it 100%, then I can be where I want in 12 weeks, then couldn't I give it 75% and be where I want in 16 weeks? If it means I won't hate life and think "I would kill for a cookie right now" 24/7, I would prefer to take it a little easier and progress a little slower, if that is an option.

**JWP806** · 07-20-2013, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by chopchoi

Thanks for responding KJ. What stats do you want? I'm 5'7" 220, about 35% BF.

As far as macronutrients, my understanding is that a macronutrient is an unprocessed whole food, right? I think my diet has lots of them: my shake uses natural peanut butter, skim milk and bananas, the Chipotle burrito bowl has a lot of them: Grilled chicken, brown rice, black beans, and salsa made with tomatoes and corn (maybe I should skip the veggies since they are probably cooked in oil). The bread and meat in the subway sub are not macro, but I figure it only has 6 grams of fat, so it can't be too bad.

A lot of it has to do with time also. I leave for work at 6:45 a.m., get home at 7:45 p.m., spend an hour with my family, then leave for the gym at 8:45 and get home at 11:30, so there isn't a lot of time for cooking.

Also, I know on internet advice forums, a lot of people think you need to be 100% dedicated or you shouldn't even bother. I'm not sure I agree with that. I mean, if you are right that if I give it 100%, then I can be where I want in 12 weeks, then couldn't I give it 75% and be where I want in 16 weeks? If it means I won't hate life and think "I would kill for a cookie right now" 24/7, I would prefer to take it a little easier and progress a little slower, if that is an option.

Macronutrients are protein, fats and carbs. You should know how many of each you are eating. You also need to know how many calories as well. Gaining muscle or losing fat is about 80% diet and 20% training. If your diet isn't on point, you will have trouble making progress.

Why do something if you aren't going to give it your all? Sounds like a waste of time IMO.

Your current diet is extremely poor. Its no wonder you stopped making gains. You can eat dinner with your family but I would just make some chicken and rice or something and eat with them.

The best thing to do is read the stickies in the diet forum. Calculate your TDEE and come up with a diet that you think will help you meet you goals and post it. We will give feedback and critique it.

**-KJ-** · 07-21-2013, 04:45 AM

I agree, why do something if you only wanna do it 75% of the time... And no it doesn't work that way with the 16weeks thing!

Read the cutting 101 sticky and watch the so you wanna learn how to diet videos!

Come back with a diet with full listing of macro nutrients! That is protein carbs fats and cals!

More help can be given then mate

**chopchoi** · 07-27-2013, 05:45 AM

OK, the reason for my 75% approach is just that I don’t like being anal about things. Like when I want to save money, I work more and spend less, but I don’t work every hour I can and count every penny I spend. I’d save more that way, but the goal isn’t to save as much as possible in the shortest amount of time. I save some my way, and I enjoy life more because I have some time off, I buy things that I really want, and I don’t constantly obsess over numbers. I'm less stressed out.

I used to take the same approach to fitness. I knew what was healthy and what wasn’t and ate clean most of the time, but I didn’t count calories and grams. I could have been bigger and leaner if I did, but I was still big and lean and that was good enough for me. But in the state I’m in now, I think I need to get anal about what I eat. So I guess I’ll start counting.

My TDEE is 2300, so if I want to be at a 500 cal deficit, I need 1800. A 40/40/20 split would be 180 g p, 180 g c, 40 g f. I modified my diet a bit and came up with this:

Breakfast: Shake (peanut butter, protein powder, skim milk)
369 cal: 52 g p, 20 g c, 9 g f.

Fish oil supplement x 3
45 cal: 4.5 g f.

Lunch: Chipotle burrito bowl (Chicken, brown rice, grilled veggies, corn salsa, tomato salsa)
465 cal: 40 g p, 54 g c, 12.5 g f.

Snack: 6 inch Subway ham sub
290 cal: 18 g p, 46 g c, 4.5 g f.

Dinner: Lean beef and steamed broccoli
236 cal: 40 g p, 7 g c, 4 g f.

Post work out meal: Shake (banana, protein powder, skim milk)
372 cal: 49 g p, 44 g c

Daily total: 1777 cal: 199 g p, 171 g c, 34.5 g f.

**MajorPectorial** · 07-27-2013, 10:19 AM

Its so important to give anything u do 100%. Fair enough have a cheat meal but once a week. Its the difference of getting where you want to be in the quickest way possible. Then u can take your foot off the pedal a bit. If u want to at that point.
Stay strict for 6 weeks and you've created a habit. Its a lot easier then. N if u just pre cook a couple days food its there ready. U just bung it on a plate n still eat with ur family. ;-)
Lol. My 7 year old daughter even likes getting involved. She now loves healthier food choices more than burgers n sausages etc. If we go out. I'll get her two adult portions of fruit selection n she munchies the lot. She even asked to go to the gym with me!!!
What I'm saying is. Its easy to change a habit. For you. Me. Anyone. We all been there. You just have to want it more. Get there quicker and you aaaannnnd your body will be happier for it. Oh n just checking ur doing ur weights before cardio right?. Better to do weights first. N if u eat strict u can do 20-30 mins hit which would he the equivalent of as much as an hour of hard constant cardio. And less chance of burning muscle too.
I don't even count my calories now. I just tub it up. N I'll change my protein n Carb sources now n again to keep it interesting you know?.
Remember. Its taken 5 years to add that fat on. N the longer fat sits on you. The harder it is to come off. Yes there's thermals and the like but if ur diet isn't clean they simply won't make a difference. U clean ur diet to the Max n you'll leave the fat behind you faster than you'd dream it could happen.
12weeks at 100%.
Well...

Why not 125%? How quick would that be?

**Brazensol** · 07-27-2013, 06:06 PM

First off 5 pounds in a month is not bad at all. And second I have to agree with the other guys on giving it your all. I'm not talking sacrificing your marriage over it but you need to give your diet 100%. It's not that hard and quickly becomes a habit. IF you must continue dinner in the same fashion then you just need to eat less at dinner time. Whenever I do have a moment of "weakness" and make a bad food choice I make up for it with additional cardio. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. We are human after all.

**Giggle** · 07-28-2013, 02:00 PM

It looks like the meal your wife made is the best one!
I don't think you can eat meals from Chipolte and Subway - and hope to make quality gains. The protein is inferior to chicken, beef, and fish that you cook yourself. That way you control the cooking method and what goes into it; and also you can weigh it out so you know what you are getting.
Good luck.

**chopchoi** · 07-31-2013, 11:13 PM

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Major, yeah, I do weights first. I am curious about what you mean by "N if u eat strict u can do 20-30 mins hit which would he the equivalent of as much as an hour of hard constant cardio. And less chance of burning muscle too." By hit you mean High intensity training, where you do one set of each exercise slowly and with perfect form? I didn't know there were cardio benefits to that.

Giggle, LOL at how women always take each others' side, even when they don't know each other. Actually though, my wife didn't make that beef with broccoli, she made pasta with tomato sauce and sausage, so I cooked for myself.

O.K. so I've gone from giving it about 75% to about 90%. I'm trying to avoid Chipotle and bring my own lunch, but I really don't like food that is reheated in the microwave, so usually I just eat salad, but I will get sick of it if I eat it every day, so I do Chipotle 2x a week. Here's what I ate today:

Breakfast: 6 slices of Canadian bacon fried in 1 tsp of olive oil. 168 cal. 22 g p, 8 g f, 2 g c.

Lunch: salad with spinach, 6 oz grilled chicken, and light dressing. 216 cal. 40 g p, 4 g f, 5 g c.

Snack: 4 oz smoked ham on whole wheat bread with mustard. 252 cal. 24 g p, 5 g f, 28 g c.

Dinner: 1/2 lb steamed shrimp with 1 tbsb. cocktail sauce and steamed broccoli. 299 cal. 39 g p, 3 g f, 29 g c.

Post work out: Shake with whey protein, skin milk and banana. 381 cal. 49 g p, 1 g f, 44 g c.

Supplements: Fish oil x3, 45 cal. 4.5 g f.

Daily total: 1361 cal. 174 g p., 25.5 g f, 108 g c.

It seems to me like I am not getting enough fat/carbs, and maybe I should go back to eating at Chipotle every day. Or maybe eat some bread with my Canadian bacon, and put some cheese on my sandwich. Any ideas?

Also, I have a few questions:

1) I usually finish up weights around 10 p.m., but by the time I do my cardio, have a shower, and get home, it's 11:30. That's when I have my post-work out shake. Is that too long after? I tried bringing the powder with me and mixing it with water. It tastes awful that way, but if it helps I guess I can force myself. I also thought about buying a ready-made protein drink, but I hear the protein is not stable, and even though it has 40 grams when it leaves the factory, by the time I drink it, it might only have 10. Another thought is grabbing a grilled chicken sandwich on white bread after I leave the gym. I get my calories 30 min. sooner that way, but I hear food protein isn't good for post-work out either because it takes too long to break down. Is there something better than whey with water?

2) I feel like I need to have some type of social life. Is it o.k. to have a few drinks once a week with my cheat meal? I'm thinking I'll stick to Hennessy because it's the only thing I can drink straight, without a mix.

3) I usually do my cardio on the elliptical, but today they were all in use so I decided to do the tread mill. I wasn't sure how hard to go, but the machine said for fat loss I should do 65% of my max heart rate, which for me is 117 bpm. The thing is, for me to get that heart rate, I only had to go 3.2 mph with a 2 degree incline. It was so easy, I didn't even sweat. Should I go harder next time I do treadmill, or stick to what the machine says? Also, is it better to increase the speed or the incline?

4) What is better, bad carbs or no carbs? I know I should be getting my cabs from whole grain sources, but say it's late at night, the only thing in the house is some white rice, and I am still 50 g short of my carb goal. Is it better to eat the white rice or go without the carbs?

Thanks.

**Brazensol** · 08-01-2013, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by chopchoi

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Major, yeah, I do weights first. I am curious about what you mean by "N if u eat strict u can do 20-30 mins hit which would he the equivalent of as much as an hour of hard constant cardio. And less chance of burning muscle too." By hit you mean High intensity training, where you do one set of each exercise slowly and with perfect form? I didn't know there were cardio benefits to that.

Anything that keeps your heart rate up helps cardio wise.

Giggle, LOL at how women always take each others' side, even when they don't know each other. Actually though, my wife didn't make that beef with broccoli, she made pasta with tomato sauce and sausage, so I cooked for myself.

O.K. so I've gone from giving it about 75% to about 90%. I'm trying to avoid Chipotle and bring my own lunch, but I really don't like food that is reheated in the microwave, so usually I just eat salad, but I will get sick of it if I eat it every day, so I do Chipotle 2x a week. Here's what I ate today:

Breakfast: 6 slices of Canadian bacon fried in 1 tsp of olive oil. 168 cal. 22 g p, 8 g f, 2 g c.

Lunch: salad with spinach, 6 oz grilled chicken, and light dressing. 216 cal. 40 g p, 4 g f, 5 g c.

Snack: 4 oz smoked ham on whole wheat bread with mustard. 252 cal. 24 g p, 5 g f, 28 g c.

Dinner: 1/2 lb steamed shrimp with 1 tbsb. cocktail sauce and steamed broccoli. 299 cal. 39 g p, 3 g f, 29 g c.

Post work out: Shake with whey protein, skin milk and banana. 381 cal. 49 g p, 1 g f, 44 g c.

Supplements: Fish oil x3, 45 cal. 4.5 g f.

Daily total: 1361 cal. 174 g p., 25.5 g f, 108 g c.

It seems to me like I am not getting enough fat/carbs, and maybe I should go back to eating at Chipotle every day. Or maybe eat some bread with my Canadian bacon, and put some cheese on my sandwich. Any ideas?

How much of your fat intake is sauturated fats?

Also, I have a few questions:

1) I usually finish up weights around 10 p.m., but by the time I do my cardio, have a shower, and get home, it's 11:30. That's when I have my post-work out shake. Is that too long after? I tried bringing the powder with me and mixing it with water. It tastes awful that way, but if it helps I guess I can force myself. I also thought about buying a ready-made protein drink, but I hear the protein is not stable, and even though it has 40 grams when it leaves the factory, by the time I drink it, it might only have 10. Another thought is grabbing a grilled chicken sandwich on white bread after I leave the gym. I get my calories 30 min. sooner that way, but I hear food protein isn't good for post-work out either because it takes too long to break down. Is there something better than whey with water?

The sooner you can get protein into your system after working out the better. Do you go to bed after getting home after your workout? If so you might want to try a mix of whey protein and casein protein. Whey for immediate use and the casein takes ~6 hours to completely digest and will feed your muscles while you sleep.

2) I feel like I need to have some type of social life. Is it o.k. to have a few drinks once a week with my cheat meal? I'm thinking I'll stick to Hennessy because it's the only thing I can drink straight, without a mix.

If you take all the joy out of your life you will not do this for very long. Just use moderation. I still drink wine (about 6 ounces) every night. On the weekend I might have a rum and coke or two. HOWEVER - I take this into account and up my cardio accordingly.

3) I usually do my cardio on the elliptical, but today they were all in use so I decided to do the tread mill. I wasn't sure how hard to go, but the machine said for fat loss I should do 65% of my max heart rate, which for me is 117 bpm. The thing is, for me to get that heart rate, I only had to go 3.2 mph with a 2 degree incline. It was so easy, I didn't even sweat. Should I go harder next time I do treadmill, or stick to what the machine says? Also, is it better to increase the speed or the incline?

The fat burn zone is more efficient for burning a higher percentage of fat for the workload but keeping your heart rate higher will burn more calories as a whole including fat. I tried doing the fat burn heart rate but also found it way to slow. When I do cardio I keep my heart rate 85+ percent. I may be overdoing it however...

4) What is better, bad carbs or no carbs? I know I should be getting my cabs from whole grain sources, but say it's late at night, the only thing in the house is some white rice, and I am still 50 g short of my carb goal. Is it better to eat the white rice or go without the carbs?

Any carbs before sleeping is a bad idea in general. But since you work out late at night I'm not sure what the ideal answer to this one is... This might be a good place to eat a sweet potato. Along with that whey/casein shake.

Thanks.

........

**chopchoi** · 08-01-2013, 10:53 PM

Brazensol, thanks for your response. I have just been keeping up with macros, and not saturated/unsaturated, but I know that yesterday I have about 4 grams of saturated fat. Adding 1 slice of cheese to my sandwich would add 3 grams, and the peanut butter I sometimes put in my shake would add 2.5 grams.

If my goal is 40 g f a day, how much should be saturated?

Also, no, I usually stay up a couple hours after I work out, since I need to unwind before I can sleep. How about animal protein before bed? Since food takes a long time to digest, I figure it could work, no?

**Brazensol** · 08-03-2013, 05:22 PM

Tthe American Heart Association recommends reducing saturated fat to less than 7% of caloric intake. So, if you consume 2500 calories/day saturated fat should be no more than ~20 grams. I use 24 grams on my spreadsheet and I am usually well under that.

Animal protein is fine before bed. I sometimes eat some chicken or turkey before bed. Lately I've been drinking a casein shake. It is a slow digesting form of protein that lasts about 6 hours. I should add I only drink this on lifting days (4 days/week). On non lift days I am sticking with animal protein. Five ounces of chicken is about 30 grams of protein and only ~125 calories.