ckd bulking diet

[eggplant]

hi,anyone tried the ckd bulking diet? If so, what gains do u all see? Any inputs will be appreciated...


peace,
eggplant

[saboudian]

I've heard about this also, i was kinda curious to see if it would work or not. To me it seems more like "lean bulking" diet, where you're not going to be putting shitloads of muscle and fat on, but gain small amounts of lean muscle and no fat.

Keep in mind though, that you have to eat a shitload of protein and fat for this to work(if it does), so you're pretty much gonna be eating a couple cows every week for this to have a chance at working.

[eggplant]

hm..i'm also rather skeptical about it...and by the way saboudian..i've read up on the ckd diet and i'm now able to understand how it works..=)

peace,
eggplant

[CaliPump]

I personally have seen great results using a ckd diet for bulking. I used the metabolic diet by DR. Di Pasqule. 5 days keto 2 days load. He now has a body building ebook that he charges for but this is how it worked. You need to consume 20-25 calories per pound of your goal weight (when cut) and then 15% on top of that. So if your goal weight is 200 and 4% body fat then you would consume 200 pounds plus 15% of 200 pounds in calories. So the weight you would eat for would be 230 and not 200. 200+15%=230. So an intake of between 4600 and 6750 in calories. Of course 5 days a week this roughly 40-60% from fat and 40-50% from protein and under thirty grams of carbs per day. Then on the carb loads I did not even count calories and just pigged out on whatever. I would guess my calories were personally around 6-8000 on the weekends b/c of all the junk. So I started at 205 goal weight of 230 so consumed calories for 250. Truth is though I could never eat that much of just meat only consumed about 5000cal. But in one month I went up to 240. Yeah 30 pound in a month and I did test bf and it only went up 3%. So roughly 24lbs muscle and 6 of fat. Not bad in my opinion. After that though the gains were slow going. I did a 50-50 split protien to fat. So with roughly 600g of protien a day you can expect gains. If you like meat great way to bulk. Any way probably typed to much but wanted to give you a good idea of what it took on a keto diet to bulk.

[davidthebeast]

600g of protein a day is insane. Your body can't use that much protein, and yes the excess will turn to fat.

Even 2g of protein per body pound is way too much even when bulking. Stick to 1-1.5 max. I think .8g of protein per body pound is good. You can do that consistently on CKD 7 days a week, too. Your protein intake doesn't really change much on this diet.

To get into ketosis you have to maintain 70% fat 30% protein at a minimum, so you have to eat lots of fat.

[eggplant]

yeah thats way lotsa protein man..i cant do that..haha..

peace,
eggplant

[saboudian]

I told ya that you would need to eat a couple cows every week for this to work. I would still be very interested though in trying this diet.

David, i don't think you are quite understanding why he is taking in so much protein. Its not that he plans on his body using it ALL, its that he needs a shit load of calories, and the only way he is gonna do that is by eating a shit load of red meat. He needs an excess of calories to gain muscle, remember this is for bulking, not for cutting under these circumstances.

[BIG TEXAN]

I'm interested in this diet as well. I may have to try it..... luckily I have a cattle company auction house right down the road from me.

[davidthebeast]

Saboudian: the point I was trying to make was that the whole idea of the CKD diets is to get ripped up by getting into ketosis for at least 3-4 days. Lyle says you cannot get into ketosis quick enough unless you are eating at least 70% fat and 30% protein Monday thru Friday, or even more fat. The guy who posted it was saying he's like at 50-50 fat/protein or something.



But maybe I should shut up until after I've done Body Opus for 3-4 months so I can post from my own experience.

[saboudian]

David you're killin me bro. I think you're just a lil confused, and thats it.

We're not talking about trying to get ripped here, we're talkin about puttin on good ole muscle. This diet is more well known i guess as Dipasquale's "Metabolic Diet" but in a nutshell, its just a CKD diet where you try to get in a shitload of calories and basically its an alternative to the traditional "eat everything" bulking diet. I guess most people usually think about losing weight when you refer to dieting, but this "metabolic diet" is specifically for bulking.

And looking back on the earlier posts, i guess if he put on 24lbs of muscle in a month, he was able to use most of that 600g protein/day.

And the more i think about this diet, the more i really want to try it, its just tough as it is already trying to explain to my parents about eating every 2-3 hrs...

[CaliPump]

Since there seems to be so much discussion about my post I will state that yes most people use CKD diets to cut and I have used the Metabolic diet to cut as well. The question was though have you had any success using it to bulk. I just mentioned the success I had. Yes I did do a 50-50 split and consume crazy amounts of protien. I knew that I would not absorb it all but the point was to BULK so if I want to bulk why would I eat what I think my body can handle. I want to consume more, it is better to waste some protien then not get enough when you want size. So should you eat like that for ever....no you could do 60-40 fat to protien I am just claiming what I ate. Typical day would be 5 full eggs with cheese and 1lb bacon for breakfast. 3 pounds of chicken and 2 pounds of hamburger, and an additional 15 egg whites. I was never hungry tell you that and lots of times could not eat that much. Like I said tuff to eat that much meat. I averaged about 5000 cal that was just what was needed to obtain 6000 with a 50-50. I would also add fish if I had the room for it. No supps though just strait food. And yes I am suprised my heart still works. Forgot too that I had to consume 8tbs of vegtable oil b/c it is reccomended that 20% of fat comes from monounsat. So that sucked I used extra light and would just drink it straight...really gross but when you see the results coming you will do anything (wonder why so many people juice ).

[CaliPump]

and one other thing.....even though i never tested for ketosis I could tell i was in b/c I had bad breath (sign of ketosis, no I do not just have bad breath). 2nd after carb load ended on sun by late tues early wed my muscles were flat (lacked glycogen).

[saboudian]

Trust me Cali, no one is doubting whether or not you were in ketosis. This is just one of the diets i've read about that is hard to find ppl who've tried it. I know Tudor Bompa and Dipasquale both promote how great it is, but it doesn't seem like a lot of ppl are on it or at least talk about it, which is why i'm so happy that you wrote about it.

It just kills me that it might be better to bulk on a low carb diet, takes some of the fun out of eating when you're bulking. Oh well, i guess you have to give up something to get something.

I actually was really gonna try this diet, but i just bought a shitload of creatine a few weeks ago, and since that has to be taken with dextrose, it doesn't look like i'd be able to try this diet and take creatine at the same time. And i just can't have that creatine sit there. Anyways, i definitely want to try this diet eventually, even if i don't get a chance to try it until next year, this diet just seems too good to at least not give it a small chance.

Hey cali, if you can write anything else about your experience on this diet, i'd love to hear it. Don't worry about rambling on, the info is well worth it

[davidthebeast]

The whole point of a CKD is to improve your body composition by #1 losing fat while #2 gaining muscle (or atleast maintaining muscle) because you're in ketosis. It's nice that he had good gains, but that's not really a CKD diet at a 50-50 fat/protein ratio if you follow the Anabolic Diet by DiPasquale or believe what Lyle or Dan say fat/protein ratios and ketosis.

DiPasquale's CKD diet has the same ratios of fat to protein regardless if you're cutting, maintaining or bulking.

See the following link about bulking on the Anabolic Diet which recommends 65% fat, 35% protein, 5% carbs while bulking, while increasing the caloric intake: (Body Opus says 70/30 ratio M-F without carbs would be even better). (Also you shouldn't be bulking if you're above 10% bodyfat).

http://www.t-mag.com/html/71eat.html

Also, read Lyle's FAQ concerning ketosis and fat/protein ratios:

http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/faq.htm

Lyle said: "5. What foods do you eat during the week? Don't you get bored?
The 5 days of no carbs is the easy part of the week food wise.
Just about anything is fair game as long as three criteria are met:
a. fat intake must be at least 1.5 grams of fat for each gram of
protein/carbs. ... If you want to try to get into ketosis on less fat, it's your funeral. It will happen but it will take much longer and not work as well. Please, please, please trust me on this one..."

Why bother with this diet if you're only going into ketosis for 1 day? Might as well throw carbs in your diet and have more energy from them instead of trying to harness ketones.

I don't think bad breath alone is a sufficient indication of ketosis. Why not go to GNC and buy Ketostix for $11? I've been told by a friend at the gym who did the Anabolic Diet for 2 years that the sticks probably won't turn purple if you already have low bodyfat, but they will at least be pink if you're in ketosis.

Some other good articles by Lyle McDonald:

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/

But again, maybe I should shut up until I've done the diet myself. My goal, like all of us, is to gain as much muscle and lose as much fat as efficiently as possible.

The one thing I don't like about Body Opus is the workout regimen. It's like one day upper body, one day lower body, a third day total body depletion. Anyone do Opus while doing a regular workout schedule?

[davidthebeast]

Optimally, if he'd done the CKD correctly, he would have lost 6+ pounds of fat while gaining all or most of that muscle. The reason he didn't lose fat and instead gained, in my opinion, is because he probably never was in ketosis for very long.

Calipump: what was your BF% before and after your diet? How did you measure it?

[CaliPump]

Optimally, if he'd done the CKD correctly, he would have lost 6+ pounds of fat while gaining all or most of that muscle. The reason he didn't lose fat and instead gained, in my opinion, is because he probably never was in ketosis for very long.

Calipump: what was your BF% before and after your diet? How did you measure it?

Well say what you want about wether or not I was in ketosis I cannot guarantee I was b/c I did not test. Truth is if you have ever done a CKD I think you would know that you can pretty much learn to tell when you are and are not in ketosis. Two ways you can do that, how you look and how you feel.

For the person that stated DiPasqule recommends 5% carbs and no matter the diet, well yes in his book, which I own, he does give a number of 5% carbs and also contradicts himself and says keep it under 30g. He says as well that if you do not respond well to less than 30 that you can go higher. So really if you want to argue about it, he gives no deffinitive answer. Now I emailed him about this and got a response form him personnally in which he stated that yes there were problems with this and that he tried to make everything to universal to everyone but that it depended on your goals. Yes his break down is the sam he gives a 50-70 for fat and 30-50 for protien well i chose 50-50. Now say what you want about wether or not I was in ketosis after carb loading but I spoke with a nutritionist before I started the diet and explained the process to them and Dr D says that by Tues if you stop loading on Sun that you would be back in keto but the nutritionist I talked with said that droping below 30g of carbs immeadietly would have pretty much a same day effect. Now they know more then me, so if you know more than them, fine.

Body fat was 10% went to 13%, used calipers. Which brings me to my next point. Where do you get the idea that based on a 50-50 split I should have lost fat. How when I am eating b/t 5 and 6 thous cals am I going to loose anything. Dr D recommends that you bulk to 10% max bf he assumes you are starting at b/t 4-6bf. When you bulk. He expects you to gain fat when bulking why would you expect me to lose. Say what you want I know the results I had and what I did. All I can say is try it, see if it works for you. I will say it won't work for everyone but isn't that what we are always discussing. Tweak the diet so that it works for you.

Well enough discussion and that is what this is, I am not trying to make anyone angry or argue, just having a discussion, so if someone does get upset based on my response I apologize. It's just to have it questioned when it worked so well FOR ME drives me nuts. Sure my results are hard to believe, heck I could not believe them either, but that is what happened. I do think that my previous history in lifting, muscle memory, etc played a part in my results. If you would like to know more about why I think that just let me know.

[CaliPump]

Also, that tmag article http://www.t-mag.com/html/71eat.html is what made me visit Dr D's site, buy the book, donwload the free bodybuilding ebook when it was free and start the diet.

[davidthebeast]

No doubt your results were awesome! I would not mind gaining 24 pounds of muscle and only 6 pounds of fat.. but I was just wondering if you had gone with a 70/30 fat/protein ratio if you would have lost fat and built muscle, and end up being a ripped up 7-8% BF instead of 13%. Because now at 13%, you're going to have to cut to be ripped and will probably end up losing some of those 24 pounds of muscle you gained.

I'm going to try this diet because it promises to help you lose bodyfat while gaining or at least maintaining muscle mass. I'm sick of bulking then cutting. Last year I went from 170 to 235, gained a lot of fat and muscle. Ate whatever I wanted, just made sure it was a lot. Now I'm at 195 after cutting down for 3 months slowly.. I'm just trying to find a way to short circuit this process so I can slowly build muscle and lose fat at the same time.

And I'm not mad at all just trying to learn as much as I can from others who have actually tried these diets, because I haven't yet.

I just got Body Opus in the mail today so will read up on it this weekend!

Rock 'n roll! I'm stoked to try this diet out and see if it works for me.

What days did you feel fatigued, if at all?

[davidthebeast]

Calipump: one other thing I forgot to ask ...

Did you write down your precise diet? Like did you eat the exact thing M-F and on the weekends?

Could you please tell me what your exact diet was if you can remember or if you wrote it down.. I'm trying to construct mine now, and notice that Body Opus doesn't have a sample diet in it with actual foods and how much to eat, etc.

Thanks bro!

[CaliPump]

David, I don't know if changing the ratio of fat to protien would have helped as much as just lowering calories. I would be afraid that taking in 5-6 thous cals and 70% being fat that you would gain to much fat. That would be off of 5000 cal, roughly 377g of fat a day. Way too much if you ask me. Thats why I went more 50-50. I would say just less calories would do the trick. Just from what I saw it would be more about calories than actual ratio. With a CKD your body is using the fat basically as carbs so I would be afraid that it would be like having a diet where you consumed 400 grams of carbs a day. I actually think I gained less fat b/c my protien was high. Basically lots of more wasted calories b/c the protien was lost. I think too much fat and your body would have stored it.
Yes I did at the time have the diet written down and it is what I described earlier and b/c I am lazy and did not want to figure out different meals for different days I just ate the same thing 5 days a week. After eating the same thing for over a month 5 days a week I can basically reciet by Memory. I also tried to eat every 2-3 hours still.
Breakfast:
8 whole eggs as omlet with tons of cheese (no exact count).
Plus 1lb of bacon. (a whole package a day)
Next 2 meals would equal two pounds of hamburger. I was so anal I would by the 1lb packages of beef, sometimes 1.2 (as it varies), so that I would know exactlly how much meat it was. So basically two meals of 1lb of hamburger 80/20 maybe 85/15 that I can't remember exactly.
Then for late afternoon snack 15 egg whites.
Dinner was 3lbs of chicken....wings or drumsticks mostly b/c they are so cheap.
Also would have 8-10 tbsp. of oilive oil, would use it too cook the burger sometimes or would just drink it since it was so much to consume. Found if you had to drink it extra light was best.
I also think I still drank whey protein shakes twice a day for awhile and mixed the olive oil with it. Forgive me I did it last oct.

This if I remember correctly was about 52-54 thous cals. If I had room I would have a piece of salmon and some extra beef to hit the 6000 cal mark. Lots of times I just couldn't do it. And would have leftover food. This is why I say on average about 5000 a day. Some days I could devour it all and hit 6000 and some days I could only get about 4000 cals down before I just could not eat. So that is why I say I averaged about 5000.

You might try emailing Dr D off his site with any questions. I know his site has gone through major changes since then and I don't know if he is the one that still answers emails but you can always try.

[CaliPump]

Forgot to answer weekends. On weekends I just ate. Mostly crappy stuff like ice cream, a dozen cookies a day (serious about this), pancakes and just tons of carbs. Whole pizzas, chinese whatever. I did not count the calories on those days b/c I was bulking and I knew that eating a whole bag of reeses piecies would give about 2500 cals. I would buy one of those huge bags of cereal on the weekend. So eating like that I probably had over 7000 cals on the weekend per day. Probably not the best carbs to consume and that could in all honesty be part of why I gained some of the fat. Dunno really. I just knew I was happy to be on a diet to gain weight and to be able to eat whatever the heck I wanted 2 days a week. Of course this was after being on a 2500 cal below diet 60-20-20 type of diet for the year previous.

[saboudian]

hey david, plz keep us updated on your progress when you start, as i do eventually plan on giving this diet a whirl.

I do think it is a bit unreasonable to expect to gain pure muscle and lose fat at the same time. It might be possible for cali to have gained maybe a bit less then 6lbs by eating cleaner carbs, but gaining 4lbs of muscle for every pound of fat is very impressive. And i think those weekend binges are almost necessary to keep you sane.

I really don't think the specific ratio would make a huge difference, its just going to be very hard to get that many calories in with the higher the protein you use. I would think it would be optimal for you to get in as many calories as possible from protein and make up the rest in fat, i can't see how decreasing the protein and increasing the fat would result in less BF increases.

BTW, i do think ketostix are a waste of money, when you get to ketosis, you will know that you're in ketosis.

[saboudian]

One more thing, cali when you bulk up next time, or if you're bulking up now, what type of diet will you use?

[CaliPump]

I would have to say that after being on a CKD consistently for since when I started last year in late September, that with the weekend carb loading I have really seen how sensitive I am to carbs. Because of that I think that next time I decide to bulk I will use the Metabolic diet agian. I mean I personnally saw 4-1 muscle to fat in gains. I just really feel that if I taked on all those carbs I would decrease that ratio. Again this is what I have experienced when carb loading. I have noticed on a CKD even on loading weekends if I go into the 300-400g rang in carbs that is all I can handle or I start to lay down fat. I just found my body tends to store fat less as fat and carbs more as fat. I think that why so many people see succes in loosing weight.

[davidthebeast]

goddamn that's a lot of food!! A pound of bacon. yummy

sounds like a great diet though.. I can't wait to try it..

I'm going to establish my maintenance calories here in a week or two, and will let you all know my progress either here or on a brand new post. I'm probably going to get very technical about it all, and since I'm doing Body Opus it won't be quite the free for all on the weekends, but I sure as hell am not going to wake up in the middle of the night to eat, unless I wake up anyway to take a piss.

Currently i'm 192 naked in the morning and just used calipers to determine i'm about 9-10% bodyfat. 6' tall

[davidthebeast]

Here it is! This took me a while to finalize, and I will start it next week and let you all know how it goes/how I feel during ketosis, etc. I'm sure I'll make changes as I go along. Please comment if you have any suggestions!

Anabolic Diet 60% fat 35% protein 5% carbs Monday through Friday
Food Fat Protein Carbs Calories
3 eggs w/ 2 oz. cheese 20 30 5 350
cooked in 1 TB coconut oil (calculated at ½ TB) 60 0 0 60
4 slices of bacon 14 10 0 160
1 TB butter on eggs & bacon, 1 TB flax 5 0 0 45

Cup of tuna, 2 hard boiled eggs 0 32 0 150
2 TB mayo 22 0 0 200

1/3 pound burger 22 54 0 440
½ TB mayo, 1 TB flax 6 0 0 50
2 oz. cheese 28 24 0 320

1 oz. pork skins 80 18 0 150
1 scoop protein shake with glutamine 2 21 2 130
(before workout)

1 scoop protein shake with glutamine 2 21 2 130
(after workout)
1 TB flaxseed oil 42 0 0 390

4” sausage or steak with Romaine lettuce 30 12 6 340
and celery with 3 TB ranch, 1 TB coconut oil 30 2 5 325
Fiber drink before bed
Total: 363 204 20 2,635

Weekends minimal food intake (allow extra 1,000 calories in carbs and protein, no fat, per day)
Stage 1 (Friday evening - Saturday evening) Creatine: 5-6 pills per day during carb up.
Before Friday's workout, eat 1 banana, 1 slice bread or oatmeal, 1 TB peanut butter
Food Fat Protein Carbs Calories
Meals 1-2 2g carbs per kg of LBM (150g)
1/2 serving weight gainer 900 5 17 50 315
2 cups grape juice (8 oz.) 0 0 78 320
1 cup apple or orange juice 0 0 29 120

Meals 3-5 1.5g carbs high glycemic carbs (112g)
1/2 cup grape juice 0 0 20 80
5 prunes 0 1 24 100
1 cup corn flakes or corn chex 0 2 23 105
1 cup non-fat milk 0 10 15 100
1 banana 0 1 29 100
1/2 scoop protein shake 1 11 1 65

Meals 6-8 .5g solid starches (37g)
1 6” pancake (twice) 2 5 33 170
2 TB peanut butter 18 8 8 200
1 TB maple syrup 0 0 13 52
1/2 scoop protein shake 1 11 1 65
then
2 cups broccoli (once) 0 4 8 50
1 cup peas 1 6 18 70
1 slices bread 1 2 12 70
1/2 scoop protein shake 1 11 1 65
1 TB peanut butter 9 4 4 100
Stage 1 Totals: 67 183 803 4,189

Stage 2 (Saturday evening - Sunday evening)
Meals 7-8 1g solid carbs and proteins (75g)
1 chicken breast (8 oz.) 1 56 0 280
3/4 cup pinto beans 2 8 30 165
1 cup beets 0 0 16 70
¼ cup raisins (or Brazilian BBQ or chili) 0 1 31 130

Meals 9-10 .75g rice, potatoes, pasta (66g)
1/2 cup brown rice 8 2 23 109
1 medium sweet potato 0 3 36 159
then
1 cup spaghetti 12 7 39 197
2 TB butter 10 0 0 90
1 slice bread (or Gringo’s) 1 2 12 70

Meals 11-12 .5 simple liquid carbs and proteins (37g)
1 scoop protein shake 2 21 2 130
1/2 cup grape juice 0 0 20 80
¼ cup raisins 0 1 31 130

Stage 2 Totals: 36 186 370 2,490

Eat 1,000 more calories Sunday evening, but no carbs after 5pm.

Supplements
Friday night-Tuesday
Vanadyl: 120 mg daily (4 pills total, 2 before bed), Chromium: 800 mcg daily (8 pills), Magnesium:1000 mg daily (4 pills)
Or 750mg Citrimax 3x/day at least 30 mins before carb up meals, and 200-600mg ALA Sat-Tue.
Every Day
Yohimbe: 2 pills per day (40 mg)
ECA: 3x/day (not during carb up)
Other vitamins: As usual

Before workout: 500-1,000mg Vit. C, 1 Ibuprofen, Glutamine in protein shakes, stretch 5 minutes minimum, cycle or stairs 10 minutes.
After workout: Ice 15 minutes. Glutamine in shakes.

Lyle's recommendations:
1. 8-10g of carbs per kg of lean body mass should be consumed during the initial 24 hours of the carb-load. This will make up 70% of the total calories consumed. During the second 24 hours, approximately 5 grams/kg should be consumed which will be approximately 60% of the total calories consumed.
2. Protein intake should be approximately 1 gram per pound during all phases of the carb-load. In the first 24 hours, this is 15% of total calories, in the second 24 hours, this is 25% of total calories.
3. Fat intake should be kept at 15% of total calories during the first 24 hours, or a maximum of 88 grams of fat. Fat intake should be roughly cut in half during the second 24 hours of the carb-load.

Workouts:
Sat: Abs/Cardio Tue: Back/Traps Fri: Superset arms, then deplete
Sun: Legs Wed: Abs/Cardio chest and back
Mon: Chest Thur: Delts