Printable View
is it possible to bulk while doing an atkins type diet. I am keping my carbs very low for ketosis with a carb up day evry 2 weeks or so. I know carbs play a role in bulking just want to know how much and if i will be wasting my time eating all that food to bulk.
thanks
u need the carbs to grow as well as protein. ditch that type of diet if you really wanna add on sum mass
Fuck the carbs, they don't build muscle. Honestly, the only thing carbs do for me is make me fat (other than taste good and give me cravings). It makes no difference whether its oatmeal or ice cream, I seem to get equally fat off them.
If you're going to suceed on the Atkins diet, then you just need to make sure you're eating over your maintenace calories. I typically go with 50/50 protein/fat and trace carbs. I would normally go with 500-550g protein and the rest of my calories in fats.
Normally i'd be a bit over 4000 cals/day.
Ask any other questions you're unsure about. I beleive there has been a couple threads a while back about this, you might to check out.
Carbs are at the very least needed post workout to aid in replenishing glycogen levels for recovery and growth.
Yes, at the very least they are essential post workout. At that time period they will all be shuttled for replenishment, and not stored as fat.
I just got off that diet after losing 25lbs, but energy was shit, tired all the time.
thanks for all the input guys im going to tick with it and start bulking in a week or 2
I'm sorry bdtr and rambo, you are both wrong. They are not needed at all.
Peck, trust me it happens on every diet.
With a lack of carbs post workout, even with gear, why do i go into a state of catbolism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by saboudian
Come on sabodudian you are one of the most knowledgebale guys around. You know the benefiets of PWO nutrition just like the rest of us. I really am too lazy to retype the entire scientific process of glycogen shuttling, but to the original poster: if you dont want to be dragging your wilted muscle in a fanny pack swinging by your nuts,get some PWO carbs in you at the correct ratio in the very least.
You need carbs to bulk. I don't care what anyone says. 500g of Protein a day? That's what? ONLY 2000 Calories? Add in 200g of Fat and that's a whopping 1800 calories there? So you're going to eat 3800 Calories with NO carbs? Buddddddy....take the carbs.
Glycogen IS important and so are carbs. Staying in a state of Ketosis isn't healthy, you'll become lethargic. Not only that, consuming half a kilogram of Protein a day isn't healthy. Especially for us already on the sauce. If you're going to bulk, do it right. Eat the carbs and shed the fat later.
Good luck either way...
I mean, look at it this way. We're already abusing our bodies with the Sauce we take (livers and kidney especially) and with taking in insane amounts of Protein? Why speed up the process of decay and infection? Just let it be and stick to the basics. That much Protein can't be good for anyone for a lengthy period of time.
The benefits of post workout nutrition cannot be argued. Your muscles need protein fast following an intense workout...and simple carbs are the best choice for fast delivery.
Carbs post-workout may have little if any at all value to an overweight mother of four but for a bodybuilder...carbs are essential for growth.
Yes Indeed some people are more carb sensitive than others, myself included, but that does not permit a person to neglect carbs entirely. It simply means carb sensitive ppl need to monitor closely the types of carbs and the timing of the carbs to avoid fat storage.
Bulk on Atkins? My answer would be No!
To much protein isnt healty! Im very carb sensitive myself but im not going to quit eating carbs! I need them to function! I have absolutly no strength if i dont carb up good (atleast 3 meals) before a workout followed by fast carbs, however i do consume more protein then carbs after the workout and the last meal (preferd) is protein only.
Sure if your preparing for a contest you gotto go low on carbs, but to bulk without it is imo wrong, just do some extra cardio and you wont get fat.
Alright now, let's not let this discussion die...........I'm very interested in hearing Saboudian's response (as well as everyone else) back because I'm kind of on the fence on this one. I agree carbs play an important role in Glycogen stores but that's following a workout and those are simple carbs (dextrose, maldextros...right?) which are processed fast. I think Sab is referring to complex carbs.....slow burners that remain in the system a long time...........these (imo) are the ones that stick like glue. Bros, for sure I could be wrong, all wrong, so please set me straight or at least give some counter comments. Carbs are for sure NOT my friend so I have to watch em’ like a hawk.
No trying to highjack here Herc, just like to get more in depth.
I realize from reading my previous post that I sound very offensive and disrespectful. I apologize to bdtr and rambo.
I'm pretty damn tired right now, (arguing with my fuckin immature roommate, cuz he doesn't understand why he should be quiet at 2am on a schoolnite when i'm trying to sleep).
I'll tackle the protein topic right now since i'm too tired to answer the others and there has been threads about this before, but for some reason this thread is getting a million replies. Go figure.
To this date, I have not seen a single study to support the claims above that excess protein is unhealthy for the kidneys of a healthy person. The only studies I have seen claiming that excess protein can be detrimental to your kidneys are to those people who are in the later stages of a kidney disease.
If you do find one (from a respectable source), please post it. I have looked for them and i have not found one yet, I have found at least 5 or 6 articles on research(from respectable sources) that found no ill effects from large amounts of protein.
With that being said, start consuming 500g of protein per day, come back in a month and tell me you don't notice a significant difference. Drink protein shakes all damn day if thats what it takes. The reason I state this is that there is an incredible difference. I am natural by all means, never used AS ever, i went about consuming 1.5g protein/lb probably just like most of you, and I thought I was getting enough protein in. After, alot of thinking,reading, and trial&error, I finally decided to give it a shot. After a month I was sold, my gains quite noticeably shot up and I realized that this is what i had to do to make sure my body got all the protein in that it could use. Consuming these large amounts of protein made sure my body was gettting every single gram of protein it ever needed and could use, even if it threw away a few grams it doesn't make a difference cuz i know for a fact that i would be getting enough in.
Alright, i have to go to class, i'm almost late already, I'll try to finish my response later.
Hey saboudian don't sweat it, no offense taken, we all have bad days. I'm going to go ahead and approach this through my own studies, being that there have been numerous threads in this very forum that will address this issue thoroughly.
You can only handle so much protein. If you consume more protein than your body will utilize, the excessive protein will turn to fat. Why? Numerous studies show that even the most experienced body builders can only condition themself to absorb 45-55 grams of protein at a sitting. Assuming no other sources are consumed (fat,carbs) an excessive amount of protein WILL cause an insulin spike. And without other sources guess what body part does the work? You guessed it, good old kidney. So 500 grams a day will torture your poor nephrons, and end up annhilating your loop of Henle. Your kidney basically has to detoxify the excess, and you will end up having to piss out whatever is left over. I won't get into the specifics of this, because im lazy. As far as carbs go, well, (1) lets not forget that fructose replenishes glycogen stores in the liver. Without carbs, what's replenishing that good ol' body part. Nada. (2) Your muscles, they feed on glycogen. Yes, excess glycogen is stored as fat. But the key word is excess. I'm a firm believer that the two times you actually need carbs are after waking, and after a work out, the two time periods in which you are most catabolic. The body is physically in such short supply of these nutrients that it will immediately shuttle all of the glycogen to your muscles. They will NOT be stored as fat because they have no propensity for storage. They are utilized. Your body is in its most anabolic state after a workout. UTILIZE IT. Cycling of carbs and protein is a likewise good idea. When varying the intake of these groups, you are able to shock your body into taking them as they really are, and dissociate the way it has conditioned itself. The same concept is analogous to that of a cheat day, it's used to revitalize the metabolic controls that you subject yourself to on a daily basis. Saboudian have you ever taken a micriobiology course? And I'm not saying it to flame, but i think as a consciensus lifter, you will get a lot out of it, it adresses all these issues, and it's amazing how they actually relate. The bottom line is that carbs are necessary on a certain level, and an excess of protein is not. I guarantee you that if you were to carb up for a day or two, you would be downright shocked at the fullness of your muscles, and your alertness will go up exponentially, as well as your strenght. Im honestly worried about you takin in that much protein without any carbs. If someone else has any links to posts, cool, usually Ronny the BUll has a ton, so let em come.
Saboudian -
You're right about no studies supporting excess protein being harmful...i studied dietetics in undergrad and the professors always said, as much as they wanted to believe it, there was no evidence to show that a higher level of protein was bad (it used to frustrate them...haha).
that being said, i think carbs are essential, when bulking. Yes, the no-carb/atkins diet will work when cutting, but it is not a long-term solution, in my opinion. That's not to say you shouldn't watch your carbs. The simple matter is, excess calories, no matter where from can make you fat. Even if it's excess protein...doesn't have to be carbs or fat.
In my opinion when bulking, you'd definitely be minimizing gains if you cut carbs. Not just PWO, but throughout the day. My personal experience, if you're really worried about gaining too much fat while bulking, i cut my carbs in the evening. I don't feel that i'm limiting gains that way, as i get a good supply throughout my active day and PWO, but i'm still able to keep a reasonable BF while bulking.
I'll look for a relavent link to post, but i'm in class...trying to look like i'm paying attention and taking notes...so i may not find one right now.
Research proving too much protein is harmful:
http://www.tuxford.dabsol.co.uk/mast...p4toomuch3.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/veggies/protein3.html
http://hhp.ufl.edu/keepingfit/ARTICLE/PROTEIN.HTM
http://www.prevmedctr.org/library/protein_myth.htm
http://www.exercisegroup.com/nbaf0801pr.htm
http://www.bodytrends.com/articles/diet/proteineas.htm
From the latter site:
"Consuming a slightly higher amount of protein won't hurt you, but very often you will see recommendations to consume significantly higher amounts of protein (up to 2 grams or more per pound of body weight). The common consensus in the scientific community is that consuming extreme amounts of protein could lead to dehydration and a loss of calcium, and it also may put an increased load on your kidneys. In addition to all this, excess protein is often simply excreted or stored as fat, which doesn't help much if you're trying to get stronger and leaner.
It's easy for most individuals to consume more than enough protein, the best advice would be to make sure you don't replace valuable carbs with too much protein. You need carbs for energy, especially if you are doing heavy resistance exercises combined with high-intensity aerobic training. When you consume carbs to meet your energy needs, the protein you consume will then be exclusively devoted to protein synthesis (muscle building and repair)."
The one from prevmedctr has some actual studies referenced to back it up...however, from what i understand the newer research (1996-present) has reversed a lot of it. I may be off, but this is what i remember hearing...
Also, i'm pretty sure that a lot has been done to discredit the "too high acid content leads to osteoporosis" belief.
If i get some time tonight, i'll look up some studies...otherwise i'll try to put some up this weekend (either that, or i'll end up retracting all of this, if i'm way off base :)
Cb_25: Go wildcats :)
boo!!! mild cats...
Go Devils!!
hahaha
i've read sum studies & articles that reversed alot of the previous studies as well, i read them a while back. if i find them, i'll post it up..Quote:
Originally Posted by cb25
I'll search for an article I read about bulking on extrememly high protein high fat and little to no carbs. It's pretty accurate and full of info for anyone wanting to try such a crazy bulking plan. It's ungodly on how much meat you have to eat to consume the right amount of cals.
You can read studies and bullshit from pencilneck geeks all you want but I believe what I experience. I've been eating 450 grams of protein a day for the last 8 months ALONG with 500 grams of carbs and 60 grams of fat. I don't do any cardio and I've stayed lean (BF below 8%). This is not because of a fast metabolism or favorable genetics! I have shitty qualities in both actually.
You can't build muscle without LOTS of carbs and protein! I think Saboudian is the 1st person I've ever heard deny carbs' importance. No offense, but show me a huge bodybuilder who got big without carbs. That's like looking for a virgin pornstar...they don't exist!
Btw, the atkins diet is ridiculous for bodybuilders!
Hey don't blast me, I just said I'll look for an article I read that goes into detail with this kind of diet. I too bulk with carbs, so....
Pumpseeker those studies mostly signal out the problems of excessive protein intake without carbohydrates as a fuel source. If you are taking carbs in as well, then you are altering the digestion and processing of the body.
I wasn't blasting you Big T...I just think too many bodybuilders get caught up in these fad diets and scientific articles when they should just keep it simple and eat. Sorry if I was a little harsh before :embarrass ...it wasn't directed at anyone in particular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpseeker
I was waiting for someone to actually speak up on this. when did all this low carb bullshit come into effect? Carb are very important in post workout!!
i agree wit u brotha on the carb situation, but were juss talkin bout studies on the effects of a high protein diet, and how claims of kidney damage,osteoporosis,etc...now have been retracted. i also agree that sum studies have there holes and at tymes there are alot of variables not taken into account, but on the flipside there are sum worthy studies.Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpseeker
bodybuilding fitness forums hype muscle bodybuilders
Pumpseeker, no problem brother, I agree that too many people get caught up with the latest fads. My theory, keep it as simple as possible, but it is still cool to read the "latest findings" :lol: