cardio in the evening

[alert]

OK i posted this before but it was alittle confusing ... my question is .. im doing kickboxing 4 times a week from 5-7 p.m followed 3days aweek by weight training .. which i do at around 9p.m. allowing my body time to recuperate from the cardio..now .. im attempting to lose weight as i would like to compete at some later date in kickboxing .. so im doing what most do and restricting carbs to pwo and ppwo.. im also going to start doing some skipping in the morning on an empty stomack . my question is... when doing my cardio in the evening.. am i burning fat(if up until that point throughout the day i only eat good fats and protein)? and what should i consume after or before to perhaps make iit more muscle sparring? perhaps some glut and protein before and after? there have been afew posts with regards to pm cardio .. but how can i make itas effective as possiable without burnin my muscle for fuel.any info would be great thx fellas

[MachZ]

Cardio in the evening will burn whatever you have in your stomach at the time b4 it burns anything else. This is why it is recomended to do first thing in the morning because you are on empty so there is nothing there to burn as an alternative fuel source.
You want to be at 65-70% of your target hart rate as well for best results. anything over 70% THR = Cardio and will turn catabolic which will then burn muscle for fuel.

[SwoleCat]

WOW!!!! Someone who understands the ideal scenario for fat loss.

Gold metal for MachZ!!!!!

~SC~

[alert]

alright i know am cardio is best .. so for p.m. cardio .. im burning what fuel is available at that time ? which will help me stay under my daily calorie amount ~2500
as for my other questions concerning a post kickboxin meal, is it alright to consume a balanced meal of brown nice / chicken / veggies here . or should i just consume some protein and glut to stave of the catabolic effects of that cardio
if any ? so far since dec 25 i've gone from 215 to 205 .. and all i've really done is cut out all **** (pop/chips starchy carbs) and replaced it with oakmeal in the morning and brown rice with day meals and cardio from kickboxing alone .. no am cardio as i can't make it to the gym early . any suggestions comments would be great thx

[alert]

bumb anyone ?

[eggplant]

i have the same prob as u..although i don't kickbox..i cant get to the gym early in the morning..so my best bet is to go for a run around my neighbourhood..but i'm not sure about the duration that should be done..anyone comment?

[SwoleCat]

Running isn't an option for fat burning cardio whether it's outside or on a treadmill.

~SC~

[lew]

Running isn't an option for fat burning cardio whether it's outside or on a treadmill.

~SC~

Why no running? even at low intensity?

[Kim2884]

Cardio in the evening will burn whatever you have in your stomach at the time b4 it burns anything else. This is why it is recomended to do first thing in the morning because you are on empty so there is nothing there to burn as an alternative fuel source.
You want to be at 65-70% of your target hart rate as well for best results. anything over 70% THR = Cardio and will turn catabolic which will then burn muscle for fuel.

I'm not so sure about this...I know cardio first thing in the AM is optimal for fat-burning, but I think that's due more to the fact that glycogen is somewhat depleted after an overnight fast, not because the stomach is empty. The body can't use food that hasn't been digested yet for energy. During low-intensity activity, the body relies mostly on fat stores, and as the duration and/or intensity of the activity increases, the body uses progressively more and more glycogen for energy. I would think the same effect could be achieved by simply not eating carbs before doing cardio, at any time of the day.

[tatertoos]

That is an interesting point but I think that any eating, "breakfast" and after, whether it be carbs, protein, or fat will be used for energizing your workouts. That is why the overnight fast is so important. Remember that the stomach is just a small portion of the digestion process. Nutrients flow through the intestines for many hours while absorbtion is taking place. Absorbtion, in turn, yields energy potentiating compounds...

I definately agree that "Cardio in the evening will burn whatever you have in your stomach at the time b4 it burns anything else" is not all that accurate. You must digest/absorb before you get the food's energy.

Perhaps this statement should be changed to "Cardio in the evening will burn whatever you have in your GI tract(ie. stomach, colon, small intestine) at the time b4 it burns anything else".

Utililizing this logic, you may be able to eat a just protein meal upon waking and still get the benefits of AM cardio/lipolysis (but I wouldn't risk it). "Just protein" because fat and carbs are absorbed fast. Keep in mind that no meals before cardio is the most efficient.

[Kim2884]

I'm not trying to start an argument here at all...there's certainly benefits to doing cardio first thing in the AM, but I don't think it makes as big a difference as everyone thinks. I found a research study in the Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism that basically found that consumption of carbohydrates, fat, or nothing before exercise did not affect the amount of fat oxidation. Here's the abstract:

"To determine the effect of macronutrient composition of pre-exercise meals on exercise metabolism and performance, 8 trained men exercised for 30 min above lactate threshold (30LT), followed by a 20-km time trial (TT). Approximately 3.5 h before exercise, subjects consumed a carbohydrate meal (C; 3 g carbohydrate/kg), an isoenergetic fat meal (F; 1.3 g fat/kg), or a placebo meal (P; no energy content) on 3 separate occasions in randomized order. Treatments had no effect on carbohydrate oxidation during exercise, but C decreased whole-body fat oxidation during the last 5 min of 30LT and TT, respectively (3.2 ± 1.6 and 4.8 ± 2.1 mmol · kg–1 · min–1, p < .05) when compared to F (13.3 ± 1.6 and 16.5 ± 2.7 mmol · kg–1 · min–1) and P (15.9 ± 2.7 and 17.0 ± 3.2 mmol · kg–1 · min–1). Glucose rate of appearance (Ra) and disappearance (Rd), and muscle glycogen utilization were not significantly different among treatments during exercise. TT performances were similar for C, F, and P (32.7 ± 0.5 vs. 33.1 ± 1.1 and 33.0 ± 0.8 min, p > .05). We conclude that the consumption of a pre-exercise meal has minor effects on fat oxidation during high-intensity exercise, and no effect on carbohydrate oxidation or TT performance."

[Brazy]

Results showed that utilization of oleate was significantly greater for up to 11 hours after performing heavy exercise (49%) compared to both the light exercise (39%) and the rest trials (34%).

The results illustrate that the exercise intensity level a person performs at has a tremendous impact on fat utilization and therefore, fat loss

Doing cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach is a certain invitation to muscle catabolism

You are entering a catabolic state and your body is craving nutrients. Failing to eat anything at this important time and beginning a work out will drive your body further into catabolism and you will be setting yourself up for some serious muscle breakdown

What most people don't realize is that there two distinct times when your insulin sensitivity is at its highest, right after your workout and right after you wake up.

What does this tell you? It tells you that your body will utilized nutrients most effectively at these two particular times during the day. With this understanding, you should address the nutrient intake equation at these times to take advantage of the "hyper-nutrient transport" effect this high level of insulin sensitivity creates

[bigsd67]

Brazy, I have no scientific evidence to back what im gonna say up, but i do have my own experience and that of a few bodybuilders i know. basically if eating properly cardio on empty is not catabolic...i know this how?? well i've been doing it at low intensity for the last two months and have been losing a pound a week, which is considered normal when losing fat and not muscle....i am stronger than ever in the gym and have more definition than before. also a friend of mine did cardio everyday on an empty stomach when prepping to body build...the result was losing 15lbs and going from 10% fat to 2.5% hardly the result of losing too much muscle.....it is these two expereiences that will keep me up in the AM doing cardio without fearing muscle loss....as long as the cardio is low-intensity...at high intensity it begins to be catabolic...that is key.

[Brazy]

i eat first, than do 20min HIIT cardio on the bike or eliptical trainer.. result = -3lbs a week for me

id rather go hard for 16-20min the loligag for 30-45min

not to mention it revs your metabolism to hell

[daman1]

Im kind of on a mixed feeling as everyone else. Some say do it as soon as you get up in the morning and blah blah. I thought that for a while, but now I say just do cardio whenever you have the most energy.

[SwoleCat]

I'll say this as there is so much bullsh*t above in the form of "studies" and brash OPINION, it makes me sick.


1) The "study" above is B.S. It also utilized HIGH INTENSITY activity which you DON'T use if your goal is fat loss. (They never said how much muscle these lab rats lost doing this kind of cardio and eating before, as the study simply "ended" right there) That is a big key they left out!

2) Cardio a.m. is NOT catabolic. I see people (usually those who purchase books from the 80's at Borders and are too lazy to do 45 mins of actual productive fat burning cardio, not just calorie burning) post this sh*t all the time. NOT EATING CORRECTLY 24/7 IS CATABOLIC, NOT EXERCISE! If that were the case, I'd be a skinny little b*tch, as well as the 100's I train. NOT the case! You have to know how to eat correctly for the activity you are doing, and NOT just use half ass studies or OPINION in reasoning.

3) As far as HIIT elevating metabolism, well newsflash, so does the lower-medium intensity along with ACTUAL LIPOLYSIS!!!!!! HIIT does NOT provide lipolysis! You do not burn stored fat UNTIL 20-25 mins of 65-75% MHR, and if you only do 20 mins or so of HIIT, and are WAY OVER the MHR for the fat burning effects, you are basically burning off excess nutrients and MUSCLE GLYCOGEN as your aerobic activity is now ANAEROBIC, or without air..........YOU CAN'T BURN BODYFAT W/OUT AIR!!!!! Again, HIIT is the lazy man's cardio, but to each his own, I know how I look and why I look the way I do, and staying lean ain't from HIIT, not for me nor clientele!

4) Eating first before ANY kind of cardio is the most assinine thing to do. You may "think" you are losing fat weekly, in reality, you are burning off the calories you just ate, you are doing NOTHING for stored bodyfat, and you are merely burning up calories that can be used for bodily repair. Talk about CATABOLISM! If anything, that sets the stage better! Don't be surprised in weeks to come when you realize your weight loss was primarily of the lean mass variety.

Point is, I can post studies for BOTH sides until my **** hands fall off. You have to use your head and realize that if lipolysis (fat burning) occurs with AEROBIC exercise, then performing ANAEROBIC activity is NOT going to burn fat.
You cannot argue that point with ANY STUDY, IT'S BASIC BIOLOGY!

If you like to eat and burn off what you ate, thus not using any of that for recovery and just using it to fuel your high intensity ass kicking cardio session for endurance purposes only, then go ahead and waste time! I'll be over here at 5% bodyfat laughing.

Sorry guys, I'm tired of people throwing around "THIS IS THE WAY TO DO IT", after seeing posts earlier by the same people asking for advice only a few days ago, and now they are an expert on what they asked about?

Get real.......

Also, "I do cardio when I have the most energy"........well, sorry to tell you that ain't going to help your efforts if your goal is fat loss!


BOTTOM LINE IS NUTRITION..........If you eat CORRECTLY after fat burning cardio, you don't have ANYTHING to worry about. You can't go catabolic and ruin a physique that you have been building in 45 minutes. It takes days/weeks of phucking up royally nutrition wise to not support the exercise that makes you catabolic.

RE-CAP!
1) You need air to burn fat, period. HIIT is too intense to invite lipolysis.
(Basic biology)
2) Nutrition is the key to warding off catabolism, not the activity itself!

~SC~

~SC~

[SwoleCat]

i eat first, than do 20min HIIT cardio on the bike or eliptical trainer.. result = -3lbs a week for me

id rather go hard for 16-20min the loligag for 30-45min

Make no mistake about it, one is not to "loligag" on the longer duration cardio. It's also never "30-45" mins, it's 45 mins! 45 mins of constant fat burning, this ain't no half assed cardio........you may be more intense from the get go and be done quicker, but after all is said and done, the endurance and fat burning I'll reap the benefits of after our sessions are over, will blow your's away!

20 mins of cardio on a full stomach is MUCH easier than 45 mins of pure fat burning on empty, I assure you! Your -3 lbs. a week mark...........how many weeks have you done this? What are your results and timeline? Pictures that show progress?

Remember weight can differ by 5-7 lbs. EVERYDAY, so your -3 lbs. means nothing to me as far as "results". Weigh yourself every SECOND Saturday, first thing upon rising, totally naked, after taking a piss, before you eat/drink anything. That is most accurate, I highly doubt that is how you got your -3lb. reading.

So touche!!!!! If anything, 20 mins is the loligag as far as puttin' in work and gettin' results! I'm not bashing you, I think it's great you are working towards a goal, as many are too lazy to do ANYTHING.

However, to those newbies here that may be reading, I can't let such advice go untouched/un-challenged as I hate to see people start off on the wrong foot if the goal is PURE fat loss. Having them eat before doing 15-20 mins of anaerobic exercise won't yield the results the population I work with are looking for.

~SC~

[bigsd67]

****...glad i been doin it on empty

[Brazy]

as we all know there are so many bloody studies and why things work yadda yadda.

tell yeah what. this week monday thru friday i am going to hit the recumbent bike and alternate it with the eliptical cycle and do 45min of cardio first thing in the morning! empty stomach

im curious if taking 'ephedra' with or without caffiene would 'enhance' the fat burning mechanism

[Brazy]

i am willing to try differnt things to get to my goal.

stupid question maybe.. but would would 65-70% heart rate be for me?

whats the formula to calculate this?

im 18, 5'8", 174 lbs

[rambo]

Point is, I can post studies for BOTH sides until my **** hands fall off. You have to use your head and realize that if lipolysis (fat burning) occurs with AEROBIC exercise, then performing ANAEROBIC activity is NOT going to burn fat.
You cannot argue that point with ANY STUDY, IT'S BASIC BIOLOGY!

Get real.......

Also, "I do cardio when I have the most energy"........well, sorry to tell you that ain't going to help your efforts if your goal is fat loss!


BOTTOM LINE IS NUTRITION..........If you eat CORRECTLY after fat burning cardio, you don't have ANYTHING to worry about. You can't go catabolic and ruin a physique that you have been building in 45 minutes. It takes days/weeks of phucking up royally nutrition wise to not support the exercise that makes you catabolic.

RE-CAP!
1) You need air to burn fat, period. HIIT is too intense to invite lipolysis.
(Basic biology)
2) Nutrition is the key to warding off catabolism, not the activity itself!

~SC~

~SC~

THANK YOU!. Way to sum it all up.

However, look, I'm getting really tired of the influx of people who come to the diet forum, ask two questions, and become experts on nutrition. It's amazing that you've accelerated your degree in Dietetics in all of 4 posts. Look, we KNOW what the answers to these questions are. That's why you are asking, right? Do not come here, and ask questions if you do not want to hear the answer. The next time someone pastes an excerpt from medline that is inapplicable to the actual subject, I'm going to print it out, take a dump on it, and email back to you. Kim the article you posted has to do with High Intensity training. It also states that oxidation increased at the tail end of the below lactate training. That's why we are telling people to do low intensity cardio in the morning for 40 minutes, because you will burn fat towards the end. We know that. We just answer questions as they arise. Do not sit here and waste our time debating basic physiology. If you don't know the answer to a question, then DO NOT try to answer it! Go to the lounge to post pad.

[AUman]

thanx swolecat for taking the time to clear all that up. i've been trying to get rid of these love handles for over a year now, but i've been doing a high intensity cardio for 20 min. directly after my workout 3 days a week. starting tommorrow i'm gonna be getting up an hour earlier and do a low/med. cardio for at least 45 min 5 days a week on an empty stomach. hopefully i'll have a good-looking stomach by summer. also what is the best thing to eat after a morning cardio for a tight college budget?

[Mr. Sparkle]

SC what if you cant do cardio in the morning? How much time would be enough to not burn the stuff in your stomach?

[tatertoos]

3hrs after last meal is the next best time to do cardio.

Sorry,

If you want Swole to answer...he'll tell you the same.

[daman1]

Also, "I do cardio when I have the most energy"........well, sorry to tell you that ain't going to help your efforts if your goal is fat loss!


~SC~

I guess that's true. IMO, if your going for weight loss overall then running when you have the most energy is a suitable option. Just what I have experienced and others; not saying "it is" the best way, just a way.

[Discipline]

answer me this would the ideal thing to eat after 45 mins on a empty stomach be a protein shake w/ a banana?

[tatertoos]

I believe that protein/fat is best if cutting.

[Mr. Sparkle]

tat thats all I wanted to know, thanks bro

[Discipline]

would ur fat buring enhance if you were taking a thermogenic stack? And if thats the case could you do less cardio and still burn the same fat?