Oats After Workout Instead Of Dextrose

**xenithon** · 01-06-2004, 08:29 AM

Hello All,

My body does not handle carbs too well (use to be very overweight and body is prone to fat storage) especially simple ones. I have read the hundreds of posts and debates on whether dextrose is needed PWO or if oats is okay, and I am going to switch to oats for now. I would rather have slightly less optimal recovery rather than fat storage from the dextrose.

I have 3 questions for those who use oats or know about the proper usage of them in the PWO shake:

1. Workout days I am to get around 150g carbs total. This would be split amongst three meals - breakfast, PWO and PPWO. Is there any particular breakdown or distribution which is better? IE. is having 50g/meal okay?
2. Many posts in the debates I read said the oats had to be cooked, and some said they did not. Any opinions?
3. If I want to have a shake which is drinkable and I will have the oats raw, can I grind them up without worrying about the GI affects?

Thanks in advance!

**SwoleCat** · 01-06-2004, 09:29 AM

OH LORD, CAPS BELOW........

Originally Posted by xenithon

Hello All,

My body does not handle carbs too well (use to be very overweight and body is prone to fat storage) especially simple ones.

NO SUCH THING. YOU'LL STORE EXCESS CARBS NO MATTER WHAT THE FORM. WHAT SIMPLE CARBS WILL DO IS STORE FAT QUICKLY IF FAT IS IN YOUR MEAL.

I have read the hundreds of posts and debates on whether dextrose is needed PWO or if oats is okay, and I am going to switch to oats for now. NOT A GOOD IDEA AT ALL.

I would rather have slightly less optimal recovery rather than fat storage from the dextrose.

NO YOU WOULDN'T, TRUST ME! YOU MISS THAT ANABOLIC WINDOW, YOU'LL HATE IT! NOT ONLY THAT, IF YOU HAVE THE CORRECT AMOUNT OF DEXTROSE FOR YOUR STATS/GOALS, YOU WILL STORE NONE OF IT AS FAT. IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO STORE THOSE OATS AS FAT TOO, AS IF YOU EAT TOO MUCH OF THEM (ANY CARB FOR THAT MATTER) IT'LL BE STORED! ADDITIONALLY, OATS ARE A SLOW DIGESTING LOW GI CARB, SO BY THE TIME THEY ARE IN YOUR BLOODSTREAM FOR RECOVERY, YOUR ANABOLIC WINDOW IS GONE. YOU THEN RUN AN INCREASED RISK OF STORING THESE CARBS AS FAT, AS YOUR BODY NO LONGER HAS THE INCREASED LEVEL OF GLUCOSE UPTAKE THAT IT HAD THE FIRST HOUR OR TWO, SO IT SEES NO REASON TO STORE THESE CARBS AS MUSCLE GLYCOGEN, DEFINITELY NOT AT THE IDEAL RATE IT WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY PWO W/DEXTROSE.

(LOOK AT MY TRANSFORMATION DOME AND ALL MY CLIENTS. I HAVE ALL OF THEM ON DEXTROSE ON SWOLEGENIX, AND ALL OF THEM GET ENTIRELY RIPPED TO SHREDS! DO U THINK THAT IS SETTING THEM BACK? DARN RIGHT IT'S NOT, AS THEY AMOUNTS THEY INGEST ARE CASE SPECIFIC FOR THEM! AS WELL, WE EVEN HAVE MORE CARBS AFTER THIS, SO IT'S ALL IN AMOUNTS AND FORMS BROTHER)

I have 3 questions for those who use oats or know about the proper usage of them in the PWO shake:

1. Workout days I am to get around 150g carbs total. HOW DID YOU GET THIS NUMBER?

This would be split amongst three meals - breakfast, PWO and PPWO. Is there any particular breakdown or distribution which is better? IE. is having 50g/meal okay? PWO IS MOST IMPORTANT.

2. Many posts in the debates I read said the oats had to be cooked, and some said they did not. Any opinions? THEY SUCK PERIOD FOR THE 1ST MEAL PWO.

3. If I want to have a shake which is drinkable and I will have the oats raw, can I grind them up without worrying about the GI affects? YOU CAN STEP ON THEM, PISS ON EM, ETC., BUT THEY'LL STILL BE A HORRID FORM OF PWO NUTRITION.

I BELIEVE YOU NEED TO FOCUS ON CARDIO A.M. RELIGIOUSLY SO YOU CAN BURN FAT AND SEE THAT DEXTROSE (IN THE RIGHT AMOUNTS) WILL NOT HURT YOUR EFFORTS, BUT RATHER HELP YOU IN LEAN MASS PRESERVATION/GAIN. IF YOU NEGLECT ANABOLISM IN YOUR ENDEAVORS, YOU'RE GOING TO END UP ACTUALLY LOSING MUSCLE.

Thanks in advance!

**xenithon** · 01-06-2004, 01:44 PM

Hi There,

I sorta knew you would tell me this since I know how you swear by dextrose

I have tried all different training, eating and cardio methods over the past months and its only when I added dextrose to my diet that I started losing leannes. That is why I attribute the excess fat storage (minimal, the last stubborn amounts around the waist and lower abs) to it.

BTW. I came to the number of 150 as this is my weight in pounds.

**beenie** · 01-06-2004, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by xenithon

Hi There,

I sorta knew you would tell me this since I know how you swear by dextrose

I have tried all different training, eating and cardio methods over the past months and its only when I added dextrose to my diet that I started losing leannes. That is why I attribute the excess fat storage (minimal, the last stubborn amounts around the waist and lower abs) to it.

BTW. I came to the number of 150 as this is my weight in pounds.

Long time no see Xenithon.

I am really interested in what you are doing with the dextrose and how much you were taking and when. I have been following the threads here and did a bit of outside reading on the benefits of dextrose and have not yet tried it. I too, have my remaining fat reserves in my lower abs, which sucks, because it is really stubborn. For me when I get my bf% taken, the can never get a grip on my leg or chest because I am so hard there, but lower abs-- what can I say?

What I read was outside of this forum when I was tiring to investigate the scientific data regarding the benefits of dextrose was that taking between 20 and 30g post workout would not affect the body's ability to stay in ketosis. I got to thinking about that, and I suspect that somehow it is a sugar that does not affect the blood sugar level (my hypothesis). So if you were taking too much, I think it would still add fat, right? At any rate, I want to get more details on what you were doing, and whether you were on low carb to begin with.

**usualsuspect** · 01-06-2004, 09:22 PM

150 grams is what percentage of your total daily calories?

I think thats the problem right there...too many carbs.

~US~

**SwoleCat** · 01-06-2004, 10:13 PM

If you feel dextrose is making you fat, then you'll do what you need to. We can only offer advice and reasoning here, and I'll just write one more bit as I'm tired as hell, LOL.........

Let me just say that if you still ingest the amount of carbs that were "making you hold lower ab fat" to begin with, in ANY form, you are still going to store them as fat. (dextrose OR oats) I lean more towards storing excess oats actually.......here's why......
Bad thing here is that you up that percentage of fat storage because you use a very slow digesting low/gi compound which has very little affect on blood sugar. Good right? Wrong. You then miss this "window" in which you need those carbs to enter the blood very quickly, and be delivered to those cells starving for replinishment, and NOT to be circulating in the blood and be stored as fat when they are not utilized within that window. You also do nothing to help the exhausted muscle cells when they are needing food NOW. So, using dextrose in the right amount for you causes a spike, and it stores the dextrose as glucose in your exhausted muscles delivering aminos from whey protein as well (ideal mix), and nothing is left to be stored as fat! The key is to know to not take too much that won't have any place to go. Ideally, one then would eat yet again, this time a solid mix of lean protein/starchy carb, again in the amounts you need to support muscular preservation/gain and fat loss, about 1 hour after that when you are empty once again. 2 meals in that 2 hour period after an exhausting/productive weight training session is the best chance you have at sprouting new muscle. Muscle burns fat, even when you purposely aren't. You can also utilize R-ALA and Vanadyl Sulfate to aid in the process if you think you may over-shoot the correct amounts.

Bottom line: Dextrose is far superior to oats pwo, you just need to consume the correct amounts for your goals.

As well, beenie you mentioned you think it's because dextrose DOESN'T affect blood sugar levels???? You realize that is 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the true/false street? It's the highest glycemic compound on the planet.

~SC~

**bigol'legs** · 01-06-2004, 10:34 PM

Ive eaten a small amout of oats Pre-workout with my protein shake.

Like Swole said, better dextrose after.

**xenithon** · 01-07-2004, 12:51 AM

hi again,

beenie - been doing low carb all the way - never keto or CKD. The percentage is 30% of total calories per day.

Swole - I have been thinking of reducing the amount of dextrose, to say 20-30g, but that would mean that breakfast and the PPWO meal would each have around 60g carbs. Is that not perhaps too much? I really do not mean to argue or oppose your thoughts as I know how experienced you are and I am here of course to learn from the best

The reason I have my conerns is that in all the threads/debates which were 10 pages long os scientific and real world experiments and results, it showed that the oats would have a sufficient spike to get the carbs into the muscle, and that overall in the long run the glycogen replenishment was almost if not the same and fat storage not more with oats. That is the only reason I am still a tad confused. And once again about the R-ALA and Biotin: can't get it here

and cannot import it. I know people who have tried and customs killed them.

**usualsuspect** · 01-07-2004, 01:09 AM

The problem is simple...at least this is what I think. Your carb intake is too high. If your as carb sensitive as you claim you are...then I'd say just drop your carbs. I'm 50lbs heavier than you and my carb intake is 30 grams less than yours. Go figure.

Try dropping your carbs to 100 grams on workout days and increase the fats in your protein/fat meals by the leftover numbers you have left. For example, drop 50grams of carbs-then add 22 extra grams of fats to your fat meals. Now you can split up 100 grams of carbs bet/ meal#1, pwo, and p-pwo. Or better yet...50 grams of carbs in each pwo meal.
Hope this helps,

~US~

**beenie** · 01-07-2004, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

As well, beenie you mentioned you think it's because dextrose DOESN'T affect blood sugar levels???? You realize that is 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the true/false street? It's the highest glycemic compound on the planet.

~SC~

Well that was my hypothesis. So how can it affect blood sugar levels without kicking one's body out of ketosis? Are there any scientists out there that can expain this to me? I think I will really need to do a bit more reading on this one.

Xenithon: I tried the oats things as a way of reintroducing carbs into my system about 6 months ago: big mistake. It added about 7lbs all concentrated in my lower abs. The good news is that when I discontinued, the 7lbs went away in about a week, probably as I went beck into ketosis.

**SwoleCat** · 01-07-2004, 08:52 AM

I've exhausted all of my advice/thoughts.

You're going to just have to expiriment.

Best of luck to you for sure!

(Biotin and R-ala are scheduled or something where you are???????????????????????? WTF???)

~SC~

**xenithon** · 01-07-2004, 09:18 AM

swole - I live in south africa. unfortunately things aren't that accessible simply cause there is no market for these things, so people do not produce or import the

Just one question though before you give up on me

: is it okay to get in less carbs through dextrose PWO. So I would drop it to around 20-30g. As you said the key may be in playing with the AMOUNTS taken in, rather than changing the form of carbohydrate.

Thanks!

PS: Beenie - I have not tried Keto yet, don't think I will for quite a while. However if I was gonna try it out I know which expert I will be turning to

**SwoleCat** · 01-07-2004, 09:18 AM

Yes, amounts are key, and the form is going to benefit you more if it's dextrose in the right amount!

~SC~

**xenithon** · 01-07-2004, 03:11 PM

okie dokes, thanks for the help and advice all. I am gonna try a month or two now of having 50g carbs at breakfast (eg. oats), 30g dextrose PWO, and 50g PPWO (eg. rice/sweet potato). Sound good?

Ciao and thanks again

**SwoleCat** · 01-07-2004, 03:15 PM

Remember your cardio in all of this. Ultimately that is what is going to get stored bodyfat OFF your lower abs.
Additionally, make sure your fat intake is high enough to encourage your body to let go of fat that is already stored. If not, you're going to be hatin' it yet again.

~SC~

**xenithon** · 01-11-2004, 02:17 AM

will do. I will definitely keep the fat intake high enough (good fats of course) and keep cardio in check.

SC: I just wanted to confirm a few things: firstly that the distribution of carbs is ok? Is 50g carbs ok for breakfast (which is also my preworkout meal) and the total of 80g carbs PWO?

Lastly - what I have been doing for a while is on Sundays (an off day) I had a carb up day. During the week on training days I get in 1g/lbs carbs a day as mentioned throughout the thread. On non-training days I simply eliminate the PWO shake, and the PPWO meal now becomes a normal protein/fat meal. So thus its pro/carbs in the morning and pro/fat the rest of the day (1 meal less due to no PWO). This makes it around 40-50g carbs for these days. Carb-up days once a week was having around the same amounts of protein as off days, but every meal is pro/carbs, with little fat in each meal, brining to a total of around 280g carbs (around 2g/lbs). Should I thus keep this carb up day?

Thanks!

**SwoleCat** · 01-11-2004, 07:26 AM

I view your carb up day as a "cheat day" of sorts, which is good for extended periods of dieting. Now, if progress sucks or is sub-par, you'll want to watch what damage you do on this "free" day.

~SC~

**xenithon** · 01-11-2004, 10:00 AM

Well I guess it is sort of a cheat day - but only in terms of the higher carbs. The actual sources of the food are still strict, perhaps even more so that other days so that there is little fat taken in with the clean sources of protein and carbs. BTW the calories I get in on the carb up day - should that be the same amount of calories I get in on training days or non training days? This will determine the amounts of protein to get in.

I think the diet is finally getting tweaked to where it should be, and I just want to thank you all once again for such great help!

**usualsuspect** · 01-11-2004, 12:16 PM

One more thing...on your high carb cheat days maybe try switching it to high calories as opposed to high carb meals. Instead of carbs try doubling your fat intake.

Once a week on my high calorie day, I have my carbs and protein in meal #1, followed by 2 meals of high fat/protein, meal #4 is usually my cheat meal

then finish the day up with two more high fat/protein meals. This is just my experience but the more leaner I get on my diet, the more my body is sensitive to carbs and crap foods. The high carb cheat days work well to keep a diet interesting but I don't they work well when your trying to melt away the fat. Then again, its different with everyone.

~US~

**xenithon** · 01-17-2004, 06:54 AM

to SC, usualsuspect and any other of the experienced guys, I just have one quick questions:

Is there any preference for the day to have my carb up (or higher calories day) on? Last year I want training on Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday Saturday, Monday cardio, Thursday and Sunday off. My carb up was Sunday (day after legs). Now I am training Mon-Friday except wednesday, which is cardio, with weekend off (I actually usually do low intensity cardio on sundays). Should I keep carb up on Sunday (2nd day after legs, day before chest)? Should I move it to wednesday in the middle of the split? Any suggestions welcome!

Thanks!