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  1. #161
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    lucabratzi is offline Anabolic Member
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    great post pinn...few questions though...how old were u when u started to cycle? how many did u run before hrt?...from ur knowledge do u think a 20 year old would be settin himself up for disaster if he cycled once then waited 7 months after pct then cycled again..and kept that same routine(7 months after pct)...its true patience is the main thing, cause most people want it now...i just keep tellin myself that i'll be were i wanna be soon...i mean i wont be there soon but to keep improving makes me feel better and to set short term and long term goal is good...

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucabratzi
    great post pinn...few questions though...how old were u when u started to cycle? how many did u run before hrt?...from ur knowledge do u think a 20 year old would be settin himself up for disaster if he cycled once then waited 7 months after pct then cycled again..and kept that same routine(7 months after pct)......
    I didn't start to use anabolics til my latter 20's

    Didn't make the decission to run a self-prescribed HRT til around 35ish.I didn't need it mind you,it was a decission I made for competitive reasons.

    For your last question.Well,20 yrs old is a tad young to be hitting the sauce,but I'm not going to preach about that to you,nor anyone else.If you follow the plan you described above,you shouldn't have any issues whatsoever.Your doses will remain in the safer range,and you'll get descent gains on the cycles too.Stick with your plan.It's a great one.


    ~Pinnacle~

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle
    How come I'm not growing anymore on cycles?


    I'm starting to see more and more of these type threads being posted by guys who are into their 4th or 5th cycles.
    Well guys...." Welcome to the wonderful world of anabolic steroids ".
    Did you honestly think you could run cycle after cycle with short breaks in between and keep gaining 7-9 pounds per cycle?If so,you've been living in a fantasy land.Doesn'y work that way as you are now starting to find out.Either you can continue on your path,or wise up and start taking more adequate time off between cycles.After all,most of you are quite young and have adequate testosterone levels to continue to grow naturally with proper nutrition and training.You guys are relying far too much on drugs at your age.It's pretty sad to see a young guy at 25 yrs old having to run 1500 mgs test wkly to get a few pounds off a 12 week cycle.If that same person would take 6-8 months off and train naturally,then run a cycle,he wouldn't be near the dose range he's currently at.And furthermore,he'd get good gains,too.Say your first cycle was 500 mgs test wkly.You ran a 12 week cycle and gained a nice amount of muscle.Average being 12-14 pounds of actual muscle acquired.Ran your PCT,the waited another 6 months,you could easily run the same dose and get almost the same results as your first cycle.But if you were "Fuk this" I'm getting back on ASAP.Your gains will be minimal.Oh,you'll put on weight,but most will be in the form of body fat.I promise you that.
    Anabolic steroids are just like any other drug.Your body gets a tolernace to them just as any other drug.You need to take adequate time off.About 6 months in between cycles seems to be best from my experience,and also observing friends throughout the years as well.There is no science around to back my theory,but I'm a firm believer this is a huge part of the problem when running cycles close together.Yes,there are many other factors that could possibly come into play.Nutrition being one.I think training is a huge factor.Some guys think they can take anabolics,go in the gym,have a half assed workout and grow......NO....NO...NO....NO....You need to lift heavy ass weight to failure.You think you can do 20 # dumbell laterals for 20 reps and grow?You're delusional.
    Another probem is guys start cycles at high body fat percentages.You start a cycle at 14-15 % BF and your estrogen levels start to soar.Guess what?Your growth will halt to a dead stop!High estrogen levels suppress bio-available testosterone .Besides taking Nolv/Adex ( or similar) during a cycle to keep estrogen levels in check,you need to start cycles on the lean side.By that I mean 8 % or so.It's much easier to control estrogen related water retention when your body fat is in the lower range.Plus,you are likely going to be putting on a few points of body fat during a mass cycle.So when the time comes to lean out,your body fat won't be at a rediculous 14 %.Thus making your cutting phase much easier and you'll loose far less of that hard earned muscle in the process.
    I know I'm rambling without going into depth,but I could go on and on for pages with this particular topic.But do you know what the real culprit behind all this is?It's Patience.In this case,lack of.You young guys want it all,RIGHT NOW!I understand.Alot o yu guys are just looking to bulk up for the babes.That's cool,but I'm not adressing you guys in this post as I could care less.These type guys are fly by nights and will be in and out of thi sport in no time flat.I'm addressing the young guys that want to persue bodybuilding(at any level),or fitness for a lifetime.Patience guys.Take your time.There is no rush.Get a vision in your head of what you'd like your physique to look like in 5-10 yrs.And yes,it will take at least 5 yrs to build a descent physique that is lean,hard and has dense muscle tissue.The kind of muscle tissue that if you took a month off from training,you wouldn't loose any size.
    Previously,in posts throughout this thread I've addressed nutrition,plus training.Both of these things take years of trial/error to perfect.Truth is,you'll never perfect either,as your body will constantly undergo change as you grow,and age.I don't want to sound like a broken record(remember records?),but you guys really need to back off the drug use.You'll need them more in the latter years(trust me).And believe me,I know all too well how mentally addictive these drugs are.I'll openly admit I'm mentally addicted to anabolic steroids.I just hope this post steers a few guys in the right direction.I've been around for some time and have seen young guys fuk themselves for life abusing these drugs.I'm fuked too.I can never come off testosterone all together.I can,but my recovery would be brutal and take at least a year to get my system"somewhat" back to normal for aman my age.Don't lewt that happen to you at your young ages.I'm older,not that I'm using that as an excuse,because I'm not.I'm just sending out a warning to you younger guys.There si a fine line between "Use" and "abuse".Take heed,please.
    Youhave to practice self control,and patience.Wouldn't it suck to be 27 and on HRT for life just becsuse you wanted to be "huge" jus for no other reason than to be "huge"?A couple of guys I know weren't evem 200 pounds at 10 % BF.That is a far cry from huge.A couple of threads I recently read,the guys were well under 200 pounds and hit a brick wall using,well abusing,anabolics.What do you think these guys will do?Jack up the dose and continue on with their cycles?Or get off and recover?My guess is they'll continue on.PLEASE,don't be like these guys that posted these threads.If you aren't growing on a cycle,get off immediately,recover and don't evn think about getting back "ON" for another 6-8 months.
    Most of you guys on the board are somewhere in your 20's.Focus on training/nutrition.These are the two key elements for sucess.Without of proper understanding,and in depth knowledge of either,all the drugs in China won't be of any help.


    More to come........


    ~Pinnacle~
    My thoughts exactly pinn, i have been trying very hard on this board to drive this message across to so many younger BB's, starting to soon, not enough time off cycle, running very long cycles at high dosages, poor nutrition, poor training experience,

    Ive been in many discussion on threads concerning this issue ive tried so hard to help them stay off for longer periods or dont even start at such a young age, many on this site do agreed with me but there are a small few who dont and post stupid comments about starting young, you know what guess who they are?? thats right the younger BB's who dont know yet what kind of damage they causing,

    Its one of the most vital things you can do is get a good solid base naturally for at least 5 years of hard training, gains will come on far better and be alot better to maintain when they do start cycling.

    Excellent post
    *Anyone wanting a source check from a willing vet/mod must first acquire 100 posts and 45 days of activity*

    “Carrying a set to a point where you are forced to utilize 100 percent of your momentary ability is the single most important factor in increasing size and strength"--- Mike Mentzer

    “one set to failure is all that is required to stimulate an increase in strength and size – with no number of lesser sets having the same effect” – Mike Mentzer

  4. #164
    manc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WEBB
    1 cup is 250ml
    appreciated

  5. #165
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    Mind/Muscle Connection

    If I had a dollar for every time I walked through the gym and heard guys counting reps aloud........

    To me,counting reps is the first sign a person hasn't found the mind/muscle connection.Going into a set saying "I'm gonna get 8 reps",and stop at 8,isn't the way to tax muscle tissue to stimulate growth.Granted,it's a good to have a general idea of how many reps you should get with the chosen weight,but you need to feel the target muscle working,and to bring it to temporary failure with in the set.When I complete a set,I have no idea how many reps I got.The only things on my mind are feeling the muscle work,and moving the weight in a tight,controled manner.Not slow,mind you.My reps are rather fast.That of a piston.I'm just tight,and in total control at all times.I don't do ex[plosive moves,nor do I throw weight around haplessly.
    To fully achieve the mind/muscle connection you must first have a good knowledge of how your own body is structured.Some guys have high lats,others have long lats,and so on.How do you find out what muscle types you have?Simple,by posing.But first you must be "lean" in order to trukly see your muscles and what type you have.I'll spare you guys the lecture on how important it is to stay lean year round in this post
    Anyway,posing is one great way anyone can learn,and achieve the mind/muscle connection.When you completely understand how your own muscle structure is designed,have total control,you'll be able to attack your muscle more efficiently and effectively through exercise.
    Get in front of a mirror and flex.Run through the 7 mandatories.Hit a side chest pose and concentrate on flexing your pecs.Do that over and over til you have total control of your pectorals.Hit the pose again,but now also concentrate on flexing your bicep.You now have the mind/muscle thing going on.Ok,now you made those two connections,hit the pose again,but now concentrate on flexing your delts as well.Now you've made the connection through 3 different muscle groups.As you'll quickly find out,posing is a bitch.Hold that pose for 20 seconds,then rest a minute and hit another one of the mandatories.Thisa is a great workout away from the gym,plus you'll have a newly found respect for bodybuilders.It's not a picnic going through the mandatories on stage at pre-judging(morning).Lack of water makes it that much more unpleasant.Did I mention the hot fuking lights?
    Another great way to see how your muscles work is going through an exercise like one arm dumbell curls.A preacher bench is an excellent way to get a viewof how the bicep muscle works,Take a lite dumbell(50 pounds or so ) and do a few slow reps pewrforming the hammer curl.Observe how the muscle stretches,then contracts.Then do a few reps of traditional style curls(palms up).You'll see a different contraction.Using that same motion,just as you are about to contract the muscle,flick your wrist outwards.You'll see the outer head of the bicep contracy slightly more than the inner head.Little things like this will help you develope your muscles so they are full,round and symetrical.Your back muscles aren't going to be easy to see.You can,however,see your lats and get a great working knowledge on how they function.Most everyone does pull-ups off the bar attachment atop a cable crossover machine.And 9 out of 10 times that machine is postioned in front of a mirror.What you can do is hang off the bar and experiment by angling your torso differently each time you pull up.You'll be able to see/feel which angles put the most stress on your lats.Another way to acquire a working knowledge of how complex your back muscles are is to have your wife/girlfriend/fuk buddy do a video cam of you doing a back double bi pose.Go through the posing motions slow and controlled so you can see all the small muscles contracting,coming together.
    Finally,hitting poses in between sets of the muscle group you are working that day,is a great way to get the mind/muscle thing going on.Not only that,it's a great way to extend your sets.This is a win win protocol that I employ myself,and have my trainee's do as well.After you get up off the bench from a press,hit a side chest pose.Or most muscular.I know,some guys feel awkward doing that because they lack size/development.Don't feel that way.Do you really give a flying fuk about what people think while you are hitting a pose?I never have,EVER.I could give a flying fuk what people think.I'm in the gym to better my physique any way I see fit.95 % of the people you know at the gym are nothing but "gym acquaintences".You don't see these people outside the gym.So fuk those pencil neck pricks.Hit those poses.Pound that target muscle.
    Once you've made the mind/muscle connection and learn to employ it with in your training sessions you'll start to see progress/results rather quickly.In order to stress/fatigue the target muscle,you must attack it effectively.Tight,controlled movements.By tight ,I mean having the target muscle flexed before you enguage in the execise.You don't stand there with a barbell hanging at your thigh,bicep loose,before starting the curl.Your bicep should be flexed already.Tight and hard.Then you proceed with the curling motion in a tight controlled manner feeling your bicep working through the positive and negitive part of the rep.Same goes for any exercise.Have that target muscle tight at all times throughout the exercise.This is how you tax a muscle and send the message to GROW!
    Ya know,I just don't see beginners making that mistake.I see experienced guys make this mistake as well.
    Why go in the gym and put in 80 % effort,and get pretty much nothing from that,when you can put in 100 % and get results?
    So tell me,which one are you?One of the "Have Nots".The ones that "Have Not" the balls to go full blast each and every training session.Lift the same weight,look the same,year after year.
    Or are you a "Have"?The ones that "Have" the guts,determination,and knowledge to bust their asses each and every time they enter the gym in order to obtain results on a monthy basis?

    The decision is yours.............


    ~Pinnacle~

  6. #166
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    Yup Im Still Researching Non Stop Gots To Be Smart About Just Have To If I Wanna Succeed!!!!!!!!!

  7. #167
    lucabratzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle
    I didn't start to use anabolics til my latter 20's

    Didn't make the decission to run a self-prescribed HRT til around 35ish.I didn't need it mind you,it was a decission I made for competitive reasons.

    For your last question.Well,20 yrs old is a tad young to be hitting the sauce,but I'm not going to preach about that to you,nor anyone else.If you follow the plan you described above,you shouldn't have any issues whatsoever.Your doses will remain in the safer range,and you'll get descent gains on the cycles too.Stick with your plan.It's a great one.


    ~Pinnacle~
    yeah im plannin on runnin my next cycle in january, and i am about 2 weeks done with pct...so that gives me plenty of time...plus i dont wanna run any real harsh shit, like tren or anything although it does sound appealing...im goin to stick with just test and other mild stuff like var and see how i like it...and im startin to do what u say about stayin lean year round...i made a vow that once im under 10%bf i never wanna go above that again...stay in the 6-10% range...thanks for the input...

  8. #168
    Pinnacle's Avatar
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    Thanks fredso..I now have to request that a moderator remove every post starting with your initial question.This thread is not a Q & A format as to "Ask Mean Mr. Pinnacle" whatever you want.We have open forums for such questions.The IGF/HGH forum would be a place to post this question.It's great you want top compete.It's not great you want top start abusing drugs at 20 years old,as you really don't need all that much at your very young age.

    To eveyone else.I'm having all the posts above deleted any should any more useless BS be posted,that will be deleted as well.


    Signed...

    A pissed off MEAN MR. Pinnacle
    Last edited by Pinnacle; 06-07-2006 at 10:11 AM.

  9. #169
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    Pinn i cleaned up the thread for you but i felt obligated to answer some of the questions brought up. If that was inappropriate of me hit me with a PM and i'll clean it up again aite? Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by firedso
    Why dont just answer?
    You're admittely new. A review of the thread and Pinn's previous posts on the board (a product of the 'search function') would have enlightened you as to Pinn's views on drug use (specifically HGH use) in younger athletes.

    Quote Originally Posted by firedso
    I,m serieus , i,m 20 years old and i wanna compete
    What's drugs have to do with you wanting to compete? I've been competing since i was 17 years old...I'm 23 now... Ask me how old i was when i first tried my first drug. Ask me if i've ever done HGH. Ask Pinn how old he was when he tried either.

    I'll ask you again... why do you need drugs to jump onstage. You wanna stay lean year round? Refer to the early posts in this thread by Pinnacle... I echo them. Cardio.. whether bulking or cutting... not clen .. not t3.. not dnp .

    Quote Originally Posted by firedso
    And yes i,m very serieus about this sport and i wanna compete. At the time i like to thank pinn for this thread i learned a lot from it , Just would like you to comment on HGH use.
    Kudos on being 'serious about the sport'. I'd suggest not 'serious enough'. You claim to eat well and train hard. I'd suggest you eat better... and train harder. Leave the peptide hormones til later in your career.

    Quote Originally Posted by firedso
    Second of all Who said you cant compete at 20 years old? Do you even know how i look.
    Simply put.. no one in the thread said you can't compete at 20 years old.

    Obviously you have comprehension issues

    Quote Originally Posted by firedso
    Your implying its wrong to compete at 20 (quoting my age)
    Again... no one in the thread said that. I reiterate.. you must have comprehension issues.. Either that or your sole purpose here is to antagonise.

    Quote Originally Posted by firedso
    Are you sure you are a VET?
    That was out of place... as were many of your deleted replies. My advice? Read our rules here. Respect for members is pre-requisite. Don't like it? Leave.

    My thoughts on HGH for young athletes? I'm sure they echo Pinn's...

    Leave the peptide hormones alone.

    Not enough is known about the physiological effects of exogenous GH supplementation in healthy young adults to justify anyone advising you on its use. Anecdotal info from users suggest it's a waste of money. But *shrugs* do what pleases you.

    Sorry for the running commentary Pinn.

    Back to a great thread

    ~Narkissos

  10. #170
    kastro64 is offline New Member
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    Let me start this thread in saying that you, (Mr. Pinnacle) seem to know quite a considerable amount and have amassed a lot of valid information over the years bodybuilding, and that after thoroughly reading this article have actually gained much knowledge. for that i truly respect you.

    Now I was reading another thread that you had posted about PWO nutrition and it seemed to clash with some of the things you stated in one of your opening articles on PWO in this thread, namely the use of whey and dex/maltodex postworkout. Im not pointing fingers but it seems like you have totally changed your postworkout nutrition after 5 months, and in this thread you go on to say that you dislike whey. So do you do a Dex/Malto/Whey shake postworkout or do u have the solid meal, and if u do the solid meal now w/o any boosters (insulin , test/whatnot) what foods do you use (I have read it but i may have missed something). I guess Im just confused on what to do because i have been doing the whey/dex combo and it seems like I am at odds with myself trying to figure this whole thing out. Again I know this isnt a ask mr pinnacle thread, but I dont know any other way to go about it.

    Thanks
    Alessandro

    Pre/During/Post Workout Nutrition

    thats the pwo thread i read that u posted.

  11. #171
    firedso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narkissos
    Pinn i cleaned up the thread for you but i felt obligated to answer some of the questions brought up. If that was inappropriate of me hit me with a PM and i'll clean it up again aite? Thanks



    You're admittely new. A review of the thread and Pinn's previous posts on the board (a product of the 'search function') would have enlightened you as to Pinn's views on drug use (specifically HGH use) in younger athletes.



    What's drugs have to do with you wanting to compete? I've been competing since i was 17 years old...I'm 23 now... Ask me how old i was when i first tried my first drug. Ask me if i've ever done HGH. Ask Pinn how old he was when he tried either.

    I'll ask you again... why do you need drugs to jump onstage. You wanna stay lean year round? Refer to the early posts in this thread by Pinnacle... I echo them. Cardio.. whether bulking or cutting... not clen .. not t3.. not dnp .



    Kudos on being 'serious about the sport'. I'd suggest not 'serious enough'. You claim to eat well and train hard. I'd suggest you eat better... and train harder. Leave the peptide hormones til later in your career.



    Simply put.. no one in the thread said you can't compete at 20 years old.

    Obviously you have comprehension issues



    Again... no one in the thread said that. I reiterate.. you must have comprehension issues.. Either that or your sole purpose here is to antagonise.



    That was out of place... as were many of your deleted replies. My advice? Read our rules here. Respect for members is pre-requisite. Don't like it? Leave.

    My thoughts on HGH for young athletes? I'm sure they echo Pinn's...

    Leave the peptide hormones alone.

    Not enough is known about the physiological effects of exogenous GH supplementation in healthy young adults to justify anyone advising you on its use. Anecdotal info from users suggest it's a waste of money. But *shrugs* do what pleases you.

    Sorry for the running commentary Pinn.

    Back to a great thread

    ~Narkissos
    I dont see any reason why this has to be in the thread? Why dont just PM me on it Listen i made a choice of using them. I said a 1000 times i always look at my health, And the choice is made. Arnold started using on the age 14 i dont see him getting any fingers. Its nice you started competing at a young age and you decided to stay natural till your latter 20,s that your decision but i made mine. And i dont think you can point me on not being serieus enough on the sport. Because i am. If i wasn,t i would have put all the research before using and the small use itsself. Why dont you go pick on guys my age who actually abuse steriods and have like 8 cycles a year without planning to compete. Instead of openly embarresing me in Pinns thread. I already told Pinn a Ban would suffice or a PM for the least. I think this is a pretty lame action . I made a goal and decided to use very little AAS to achieve it. Keeping health intact. I demand you delete your post and mine or just give me a ban because you could have expected reply on this BS!
    You people dont shit how i look what my goal is and who i am yet you always like to make assumptions. Let me tell you something. Why dont you go look at your own diet and training and do it even harder . O wait! I dont even know how you look but i just assume that you have to train harder and eat better in fact why dont i bring a little more disrespect and tell you to stop taking peptides hormones either and get a base to work from with eating and proper training for several years , o wait! I dont know if you already had that but i assume you didn,t. . Byebye
    Last edited by firedso; 06-08-2006 at 01:56 AM.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedso
    Arnold started using on the age 14 i dont see him getting any fingers.
    I make it a point ignore the ignorant: those who let others choices govern their own.

    These two posts will remain on this thread unless Pinn asks they be removed.

    I'd advise you choose another board to post at. It is astonishing that you ask for advice... and then go out of your way to insult, on multiple occasions, those from whom you sough advice.

    Maybe one day you'll learn a better way to go about things.

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by kastro64

    Pre/During/Post Workout Nutrition

    thats the pwo thread i read that u posted.
    The article in question wasn't written by Pinnacle.. That article was credited to Zeplin.

    While i can't answer for Pinn... I can, since he and i practise similar nutrional concepts (barring the use of Leucine which i have not tried as yet), speculate on his behalf.

    Bodybuilding is about learning what works. Pinn has a lot time in the game.. I myself have some time also.

    When i came to the boards what i had been doing in the past had worked... and worked well... but contrasted with everything said on the boards. But i made the switch to the 'common practise'. I made gains.. but the improvements i had been making (in leaps and bounds notably) in the past ceased to be. I was progressing slowly. It had nothing to do with homeostatis. It simply was that i had been curtailing my progress with some of the 'fad must have's'... the 'internet boards' bodybuilding essentials'.

    I suspect Pinn did at some point go tru this conundrum... and tru trial and error, like myself, arrived back at what works: plain and simply put, the basics.

    ~Narkissos

  13. #173
    Descimus25 is offline New Member
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    Thanx for the info, Pin keep it up
    Last edited by Descimus25; 06-08-2006 at 11:54 AM.

  14. #174
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    glad i read it... now to the other stickys :P

  15. #175
    xpijeonx is offline Associate Member
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    I have really enjoyed reading this thread, thanks for taking the time Pinnacle and everyone else for contributing, also keeping it clean and on track. Its been sort of an eye opener for me. I have been reading on here for longer than I have been a member and the knowledge of Mods, Vets and members in general never ceases to amaze me.

  16. #176
    Smak is offline AR's Midget Beater
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    I wish I still lived in Miami. I would def love to come up and train with the the myth, the legend, the man they call "Pinnacle".

    Keep up the good work buddy!

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smak
    the the myth, the legend, the man they call "Pinnacle".

    Keep up the good work buddy!
    Don't know about all that my friendThanks for the Props though.Anytime your in S. FL give me a shout.I'll train with you any day bro.Any day at all......


    More to come on Monday,so stay tuned.............

    Have a great weekend guys....

    ~Pinnacle~

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle
    Don't know about all that my friendThanks for the Props though.Anytime your in S. FL give me a shout.I'll train with you any day bro.Any day at all......


    More to come on Monday,so stay tuned.............

    Have a great weekend guys....

    ~Pinnacle~
    o0o0o your from miami pinn?? didnt know that..

  19. #179
    AnabolicBoy1981 is offline Anabolic Member
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    i agree with Mr. Pinn a bout stayin lean year round, or at least soemwhat lean.

    I have found that gaining more than 20lbs a year during a bulk phase is a bore to lose without losing some muscle and strengh. I have had big fluctuations, and little ones, and its better ehen thy're little.
    Persoanlly i dont know how pinn can do 2x cardio a day when cutting and not lose mass but that's cool that it works for him. I find its too much for me, but to each his own.
    When your young its easy to see pros get all fat and nasty and try to emulate it, but after you get super fat once you learn your lesson.

    I also like pinns method of variations of each excersise EO week. i find this very effective.

  20. #180
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    Taking your physique to the next level with HGH


    First off,I'd like to say I'm not a huge believer in that HGH is the sole cause of the distended belly(Gh gut) look you see on stage now and then.True,in some cases I'm sure that's the culprit to some extent.But for the most part,distended bellies are an ugly side effect from eating to large of meals on a frequent basis.I've discussed this topic at length with several friends who are IFBB competitors.One whos name you'd rcognize immediately.They all feel the same way I do on this topic.Alot of guys you've seen in the past with the distended look have now switched to eight smaller meals as opposed to the traditional bobybuilders six.If you've taken notice,over the last year or so many have dramatically rduced their abdominal region.Ronnie and Gustavo have openly talked about this topic and both have stated they've tweaked their nutritional plan in an attemt to stream-line their mid sections.They both have stated they've changed their training habits for abdominals as well.They are now training them more frequently with higher reps.I highly doubt they've decreased their growth hormone doses.Here's a little inside info I'll share with everyone.Contraire to what some on the internet believe,high level/Pros don't use high doses of HGH year round.It used in high doses during growth phases.Most of the time they run relatively moderate doses ranging from 8-10 ius ED.Growth phases I was told,they run 18-25 ius ED.Nut keep in mind most only run an 8-10 week growth phase.No more than that.
    On to the topic at hand.Growth hormone and how it can dramatically alter your physique.Low doses of 2-6 ius ED won't do much to alter your physique.If your nutritional plan is in tact,you'll stay rather lean running those doses.You could possibly get some muscle tissue growth on 4-6 ius ED if you ran it for a year.Maybe a pound or two tops.That's without the use of anabolic steroids ,like testosterone .If you've been running HGH for about 5-6 months at those doses,and run a Testosterone enanthate cycle,you'd get a few pounds of extra muscle in the process.Again,nothing dramatic by any means.Thing is,most guys on these boards think you can run HGH for 4-5 months and get results.Nope.HGH is a drug meant for long term use.Long term meaning well over a year,non stop.This is why you hear alot of guys saying HGH isn't worth shit.Too expensive blah,blah ,blah ,blah...If these guys would run the correct doses year round,then up the dose during a mass phase,they'd be sining a far different tune.Believe me,when I first started using HGH years back I was thinking pretty much the same thing as everyone else.But here's the difference.I had a long term plan,and from speaking with far more experienced men at the time than myself,was told to continue on with the HGH.Thankfully I listened to them.Over time through experimentation,running HGH at different doses,different drugs on cycle,I learned what HGH is capable of doing.Mind you,it wasn't inexpensive by any means.But my patience paid off ten fold.This hormone dose work if you have the patience and finances to endure through your experimental stages.If you are a serious about bodybuilding and want to alter your physique for the better,you'll need to run 9-10 ius ED when not on cycle.When on cycle,you'll need to bump the dose to 12-18 ius ED.This is the consensus of many I talked to who have vast experience with HGH.I personally have found that protocol to be extremely effective.Like I said above,I've been on HGh for many years non stop and when I finally got aggressive ith my doses is when how HGh is physique altering.Very recently I just completed a high dose Test/HGH/huIGF-1 cycle for 8 weeks in duration.I can honestly say it was one of my most productive cycles I ever ran.I didn't put on massive amounts of muscle like some would think.The 6.5 pounds I put on was quality muscle though.I had an extremely hard time putting on body fat.In fact,I had to reduce my cardio in order to put on "wanted" body fat.Why would I want to put on body fat?Reason being I started my cyclke at 4% BF.Like I said throughout this thread I like to start my cycles lean.

    I'll continue this shortly.I need to piss and eat

    ~Pinnacle~
    Last edited by Pinnacle; 06-12-2006 at 11:13 AM.

  21. #181
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    I hope it is okay to ask a question about this last post.. GH you mention the high amounts here now does the matter on a persons weight, AAS/GH experience? what I mean when a nOOB starts (lets say in their late 20/30's) and they start with 500-750mgs of test they would need to continue upping the dose as their cycles continue (I am meaning 3-4 cycles later). Is this the same with GH or can someone do 10+ IU's ED on cycle and drop off to 4-6 off and not have to build up to a ridiculous amount like 20+?

    I am talking on a normal average Joe not a competing BBer.

    I hope that makes sense.

    ~Old

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman
    .. GH you mention the high amounts here now does the matter on a persons weight, AAS/GH experience? what I mean when a nOOB starts (lets say in their late 20/30's) and they start with 500-750mgs of test they would need to continue upping the dose as their cycles continue (I am meaning 3-4 cycles later). Is this the same with GH or can someone do 10+ IU's ED on cycle and drop off to 4-6 off and not have to build up to a ridiculous amount like 20+?

    I am talking on a normal average Joe not a competing BBer.

    .

    ~Old
    First off,the avergae Joe really hasn't the need to be running HGH period,unless he has joint issues or low HGH levels.Simple Test cycles,practice proper nutrition and a sound training program is all the the average gym rat needs.
    To answer your question.No,you don't build up tolerances like you do with anabolics.However,as you progress(weight-wise)you "might" have to up the dose slightly.I know guys that have been on HGH for 10+ years and get great results running 8-10 iu's ED,then bump the dose on cycle.Hope that answered your question,oldman.



    Now back to the topic at hand.Like I left off saying,I went down to 4% Bf before starting my cycle.I took it to the extreme though.I compete and have a comp coming up in Sept.so i wanted to start my contest prep cycle on the very lean side to ensure I wouldn't loose muscle muscle mass in the process of dieting down.It worked out real well.I'm sitting at 8% BF as of now and I'm about 14 weeks out from the show.
    My whole point being here guys is if you really want to alter your physique,HGH will get you there.You have to be patient and run the proper doses year round.Like i said above,the average gym rat really doesn't need HGH.I'm adressing athletes more so in this post.These are the ones that can benefit greatly using HGh the proper way.

    Some will ask ,"what about side effects?"First off,I'm not saying to just jump right into these doses.You'll need to ramp them up over time.It will take about a year to get into the adequate dose range for HGH to become effective.Some guys might get more aggressive and get there in 6 months.
    The most common side effect experienced when first starting HGH is joint soreness.This usually lasts a few weeks.That soreness is your tendons growing.Sort of like growing pains when you were a kid.So don't freak out should that happen.Look at it in a positive light.Strong tendons are a good thing
    Another possible side effect some experience when ramping the HGH dose is water retention.If that happens,you'll have to drop the dose slightly for about a month to let your body acclimate.Then ramp .5 ius at a time.Another possible side effect is gyno.It's quite uncommon but guys have contracted gyno with HGH.This seems to occur when guys come off after a lengthy run and get an estrogen rebound effect.It's quite uncommon and I really wouldn't worry about that.I just wanted to put that out there though.You can't eleminate GH gut either.It can happen,although it's not nearly as common as some on these boards lead you to believe.Lastly,is abnormal bone growth in the jaw.This board edits out most the words in the medical term.But you guys now that already.So no biggie.With this,you ned to have genes present in order to get abnormal growth.That is another huge myth on these boards.I read all the time guys saying you'll look like frankenstein if you run 15 ius HGH.That odds of that happening are very high.Jeez,if that were true all the suppliment companies wouldn't have anyone photogenic enough to sell there suppliments.

    I'm sure some will have questions regarding this HGH post.So feel free to ask valid questions about HGH.Sorry though,any 18-21 year old asking questions will be ignored.Not to be rude,but HGH isn't for you,YET!

    ~Pinnacle~

  23. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle
    Taking your physique to the next level with HGH


    now switched to eight smaller meals as opposed to the traditional bobybuilders six.
    good solution.
    four little protein/carb shakes,four little meals.
    Last edited by oswaldosalcedo; 06-12-2006 at 12:21 PM.

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle
    Taking your physique to the next level with HGH


    (1) was told,they run 18-25 ius ED.

    (2) HGH is a drug meant for long term use
    1.- doses !
    2.- long run:

    Why the necessity for long runs of GH?
    Why the necessity for long (6 month+) runs of GH?
    post 21:
    Last edited by oswaldosalcedo; 06-12-2006 at 12:48 PM.

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by oswaldosalcedo

    1-big doses !!!!!!

    2.-long run
    Big doses,but ran a short period of time.8-10 weeks isn't along run at high doses.


    Personally,whoever wants can argue that HGh is/or isn't needed for long durations can think what they like.HGH isn't for everyone.Most run it too short a time frame to see what it actually can do.Running it for 6 mos isn't that great.The drug is just starting to take your physique to another level,then you jump off an bitch HGH didn't do shit for me.If you can't afford to run the drug at the proper dose for lengthy periods of time,then you need not waste a penny on HGH,cause it isn't for you.


    ~Pinnacle~

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle
    Big doses,but ran a short period of time.8-10 weeks isn't along run at high doses.


    Personally,whoever wants can argue that HGh is/or isn't needed for long durations can think what they like.HGH isn't for everyone.Most run it too short a time frame to see what it actually can do.Running it for 6 mos isn't that great.The drug is just starting to take your physique to another level,then you jump off an bitch HGH didn't do shit for me.If you can't afford to run the drug at the proper dose for lengthy periods of time,then you need not waste a penny on HGH,cause it isn't for you.


    ~Pinnacle~
    i agree, assuming that if it works, then must be to long duration.
    i answered at post 21 in:
    Why the necessity for long runs of GH?
    Why the necessity for long (6 month+) runs of GH?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle
    Taking your physique to the next level with HGH

    Growth phases I was told,they run 18-25 ius ED.

    ~Pinnacle~
    Pinn,and about cutting phases?

  27. #187
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    Another awesome post Pinnacle. Keep it up....... please.

    1buffsob

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1buffsob
    Another awesome post Pinnacle. Keep it up....... please.

    1buffsob
    THX..I will,but my time is become far more restricted.So when I can throughout the week,I'll make a post on something I think might be of interest to some.

    ~Pinnacle~

  29. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by oswaldosalcedo
    Pinn,and about cutting phases?
    8-10 ius ED Ossie.That's a great maintenance dose for the experienced user.You can still possibly lower the myostatin gene at this dose and still spurt some muscle growth.Or at least hyperplasia is possible and on the next mass cycle you'll be able to expand those newly generated cells.Hopefully

    Ossie,please stop quoting my whole entire post to ask one question,THX man.

    ~Pinnacle~
    Last edited by Pinnacle; 06-14-2006 at 10:34 AM.

  30. #190
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    First off,I'd like to thank all those who sent PM's over the last few weeks.I appreciate the kind words,and more so am pleased this thread has enlightened some.
    I was asked via PM by quite a few guys "What's the deal with carb cycling?" " How is it done correctly?"
    Ask and you shall recieve.

    The easiest way to explain carb cycling is that you go several days on low carb,followed by a high carb day.This is far more efficient than staying on low carbs for a long duration.You are basically fooling your metabolism by not allowing to to adjust to a set amount of calories per day.Resulting in a far less chance of hitting plateaus.There are several different ways to cycle carbs.Alot of it boils down to the individual.As you progress in your diet and lean out,your metabolism at this point is moving rather quickly,so you'll fallen out much quicker too.This is when you need to shorten up the days between high/low carbs.
    Here's a general rule on how I handle this when a client is about to start a contest prep cycle.After his/her diet has been cleaned up,at week 14 I'll have the individual go 3 high carb days,and 4 low carb days mixed up throughout the week.This basically gets them re-aquainted with eating clean and also at specific times.I have them run that for 1 week.The following week I'll have them go 2 high carb days,5 low days.At this point being week 3 their system starts to adjust to low carb days often,and that sluggish feeling starts to decline.Now,assuming their BF is in the range of lets say 10 %.At week 12 through 9 I'll have them go 9 days low carb,the 10th day high carb.The amount of carbs an individual will have on low carb days varies.But 100g is usally the norm for most.Some get away with less carbs.Like I said,it's very much an individual thing.Alot of factors come into play to determine the right amount of carbs on lower days.But to keep it simple we'll stick with 100g.The 100g is split up.50g at breakfast,and the other 50g PWO.If you never been on a strict diet before,let me tell you 50g doesn't look like much on a plate.It's basically about 2 tablespoons of sweet potato mash.So looking down at your plate can be quite depressing.On high carb days the general rule is 300% of the in take of the low carb days.So high carb day would be 300g.After 4 weeks on this protocol I have to evaluate the individuals progress.If the person is progressing really well ie: leaning out.I'll switch him/her to 6 days low carb followed bt one day high carb.This will keep the individual full looking.You don't want a person to stay flat for too long a time frame.When it comes time to carb load him/her they won't get the same degree of fullness.This is why the leaner he/she gets,the closer together the high carb days become..The last 4 weeks out from the show most individuals will be one a 3 day low carb,followed by a high carb day.This keeps them nice and full looking.Muscle loss is minimal.And they'll have energy to do those (2) 45 minute cardio sessions.

    I push for my clients to get down to their contest weight/BF about 10 days out prior to the show.This way they don't have to kill themselves with cardio right up to the show.They can rest up so they don't have that tired,beaten look about them on stage.For the last 10 days all they have to do is maintain and dry out to get that hard,grainy look.

    You won't nail/dial in carb cycling on you first try.Like everything else with bodybuilding.It's about trial/error/experimentation.


    I hope this answered the quetions some had regarding carb cycling.Next time you want to get down to a lean 7-8 % before starting a mass phase.Experiment with it.You'll be gald you did.


    More to come..........


    ~Pinnacle~
    Last edited by Pinnacle; 06-14-2006 at 01:41 PM.

  31. #191
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    Great info.. just what I was looking for

    One thing I'm confused about that is contradicting is you said when carb cycling 100carbs/day will be split morning/PWO. But in earlier posts you say include carbs in every meal correct because you don't believe in Prot/fat - Prot/carb type diets.. but with carbs morning/PWO wouldn't that leave other meals being Prot/fat. Does that make sense or is my confusion confusing you? lmao

    Thanks again B.

    PS.. Pinn answered my question as I asked it in a PM lol..
    My mistake, he is talking about two totally separate scenarios, dieting to lean down (priming) and what your normal diet should consist of to stay lean and build LBM.
    Thanks for clarifying.
    Last edited by IBdmfkr; 06-14-2006 at 11:53 AM.

  32. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBdmfkr
    Great info.. just what I was looking for

    One thing I'm confused about that is contradicting is you said when carb cycling 100carbs/day will be split morning/PWO. But in earlier posts you say include carbs in every meal correct because you don't believe in Prot/fat - Prot/carb type diets.. but with carbs morning/PWO wouldn't that leave other meals being Prot/fat. Does that make sense or is my confusion confusing you? lmao

    Thanks again B.

    .
    The diet I posted above is my MASS phase diet.Let me say a few things I neglected to mention in the carb cycling post.Your protein in take will be much higher than it would be on a mass phase.In a mass phase you'll be consuming high amounts of carbs,and lower protein is taken in during that phase since since carbs are protein sparing.During the diet utilizing carb cycling it's a good idea to be at 2g of protein per pound of lean body mass.Not over all weight.This is a huge mistake guys make.Your diet is soley based on lean mass.Say a 250 pound Bber is 10% BF.His lean mass would be roughly 225 pounds.That is what he'd base his protein needs off of,and his over all caloric in take as well..Also,on your meals during carb cycling you'll need to eat 2 cups of vegetables with every meal,exculding breakfast and PWO.They act as a filler,they are low in calories,and keep you feeling satisified til your next meal,since they'll slow down the rate of digestion.Earlier in the day higher calories vegetables like beets,carrots,peas are fine.Later in the day stick with brocoli,asparagus,green beans and spinach.That answer your question Ibd?It's not pro/fat by any means.You are still eating carbs,but they are very low in calories(most of them anyway).


    A couple quick tips on planning your diet/nutritional habits.

    I spoke above in several posts about the glycemic index(GI) and how carbohydrates in the lower range make a huge difference in your fat loss,or just maintaining a low body fat percentage.I'll say it again,98% of the time you want to be eating low GI carbs like that of oatmeal,sweet pootato,regular potato and rice on accassion.It's a simple biological fact that when your body releases large amounts of insulin the fat burning process shuts down,and instead of burning fat,you'll be storing it.There is something you need to know.When looking at the GI index of a certain carb source it's assuming you only eat that carb by itself.But eating those carbs with protein slows down the digestion rate,thus blunting the insulin release somewhat,so that in turn lowers the GI for that particular carb.What you need to do is mix and match your protein/carbohydrate sources.Say you decide on steak for a certain meal.You'd probably want to go with a higher GI carb source like brown rice.Since steak is low on the BV(bio-availability) chart,meaning it's hader to digest and less protein is utilized.Rice would be a good choice since the steak will dramatically lower the rice GI rating.On the other hand,chicken is rather easily digested,so having a low GI carb source like sweet potato would be a good choice.It's somewhat of a balancing act.
    Going to the other realm.Salmon which is fatty,is digested at a much slower rate than say Cod,Flounder,talapia.So having rice with salmon would work out fine.With the other 3 fish mentioned I'd have regular potato,or sweet potato.
    Another thing to think about when planning your diet is fatty foods like steak/tuna/salmon .These are digested at a slower rate and give you a feeling of being full/satisfied longer.Say you have a busy schedule and certain times of the day you can only eat every 3 hrs.The fattier protein sources are a great choice.Other times of the day when you can eat meals closer together,go with chicken,Turkey,lean cuts of pork which are easily digested.Bare in mind you body metabolizes carbs better earlier in the day,and fattier foods better in the latter part of the day/evening.You really need to take that into account especially if you are dieting.
    If you train early evening.A good PWO meal would be chicken(which is easliy digested) and sweet potato(Low GI,and remember it's evening).You post post work out meal(#6) shpould be fattier.Salmon and 2 cups of veg(like brocoli) is aperfect choice.The salmon will be slowly digested,and the vegetables will even slow the rate of digestion even further.You won't have that urge to eat late night before bed,and you'll have descent nitrogen balance for quite some time.

    Hope this post was enlightening to some.

    ~Pinnacle~
    Last edited by Pinnacle; 06-14-2006 at 01:35 PM.

  33. #193
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    Again Enlightening to say the least!

  34. #194
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    I just wanna say I appreciate you taking the time to make this post. It really just kinda cuts out all the BS and gets straight to the good solid points. It saves me alot of time figuring stuff out and hearing peoples uneducated guesses on the matter. So i just wanna say I apprecaite you helping us out like this. I know i base my diet and training habits alot on this post.

    Thanks again

  35. #195
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    Thanks Pinn.. Very informative.
    Last question though. How would you include fats in the diet just mentioned? What meals and amounts would be used.

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  36. #196
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    Great thread...

  37. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBdmfkr
    Thanks Pinn.. Very informative.
    Last question though. How would you include fats in the diet just mentioned? What meals and amounts would be used.

    YES...you should be eating Salmon/tuna at least once a day.There's fatty acids there.Inculding lean Beef once a day is more good fats.A few egg yolks thrown into your morning breafast is more good fats.Plus you still get fat from turkey and chicken too.

    Can't answer at what meals .That's depends on many factors.I thought I was pretty clear in the above post as when to utilize fattier foods during the day? Amounts of what used bro?Fat ratios? That again is dependent upon what you are doing ie;cutting/mass cycle.It's pretty much individually based like every nutritional plan is.During a mass phase it's good to go higher in fats/carbs,and compinsate with cardio.

    ~Pinnacle~
    Last edited by Pinnacle; 06-15-2006 at 12:13 PM.

  38. #198
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    great read Pinn... thanks...

  39. #199
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    Pinn
    Good post on carb cycling but id like to add to it from my experiences with me and colleagues, you said you would go on low carbs for 7-9 days then followed by high carb day, we found this to be very harsh on our muscle tissue,

    I will try to explain, a common problem with reducing carbs is that over time the metabolic rate can and will begin to adapt, when carbs stays low for an extended period of time usually at the 7 day mark and up, fat cells attempt to hold on by resisting the release of fatty acids, levels of lipoprotien lipase tend to rise and thyroid levels drop, these both effect overall basal metabolism and are part of the starvation response which off sets reductions in energy intake and is very common to muscle wastage,

    We found the high carb day should be introduced around 3-5 day mark of low carbs, anything higher would trigger some muscle wastage, which when carb cycling is something you don't want to happen, by introducing the high carb day at around day 3-5 this interrupts the starvation response which restores thyroid levels back to normal while also suppressing the fat storing enzyme lipoprotein ( which rises after day 7 of a lower carb intake) which results in no muscle tissue wastage,

    Also if you catch this right at when the glycogen levels drop which is around 3-5 day mark and you follow this by the high carb day with an increase of calories even higher than what the body had been use to previous to the reduction, the body responds by increasing thermogenesis which in turn helps the whole process,

    Everybody is different but ive got alot of personally studies which show muscle wastage on carb cycling at the 7 day mark and up, the body re-adjusts itself at this stage and holds onto the fat cells while using the precious muscle tissue as energy, which in turn the individual will lose more muscle tissue than stopping short this process at 3-5 day mark of the low carb,

    The body is not 100% efficient at extracting all the calories from foods we eat, when it comes down to carbs the body burns off 10 calories of carbs out of every 100 eaten, so it takes 10 calories out of metabolic fuel to get 100 calories out of the carbs, but when coming out of a carb depleted state where glycogen levels are low, this number becomes exaggerated upwards to 20%, so increasing the carbs at 3-5 day mark instead of 7 -9 day mark can enhance long term fat loss by shutting off the starvation response and by increasing the calories costs of obtaining fuel from the carbs we eat,

    The key is tricking the metabolism into losing fat instead of muscle tissue by rotating carbs but not letting the body trigger the starvation response which does occur at and around day 7 and upwards, also ive found that before any type of carb cycling you must of establish a basic diet which you have ran for a number of weeks in where the body isn't gaining or losing any size just maintaining what its got, this is very important because this established diet is what you work off so we get the body to respond the best by dropping bf and holding onto muscle tissue,

    This process is ideal for priming for a cycle,
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  40. #200
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    1,105
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinnacle
    8-10 ius ED Ossie.That's a great maintenance dose for the experienced user.You can still possibly lower the myostatin gene at this dose and still spurt some muscle growth.Or at least hyperplasia is possible and on the next mass cycle you'll be able to expand those newly generated cells.Hopefully

    Ossie,please stop quoting my whole entire post to ask one question,THX man.

    ~Pinnacle~
    ...lol.............yeah i will do it,just lazyness
    i will edit the posts.

    great idea, carb cycling 3-4 mixed.
    clear point.

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