Sustanon and why you shouldnt use it

[The Iron Game]

Not all test was created equal. Test is Test is Test. As much as this is true we are speaking about raw test or de esterified test. We are not talking about ester bound test.

The purpose when injecting is to do so to keep blood plasma levels as stable and at peak for as long as possible, now we cannot do this with sustanon unless it is injected every other day. If I were to draw a graph on the time release of sustanon it would have Highs & Lows (Ups & Downs). Now the average newbie does not wish to inject on an every other day basis and he certainly doesnt wish to be using that much test for a first or second cycle either. In order to keep blood plasma levels stable and reach a peak as quickly as possible you would have to go about front loading. Again something that should not really be done with sustanon.

I have read sustanon causes less water retention, sustanon causes less chance of getting gyno and less sides overall. This is not true one bit.

250mgs of sust or 250mgs of enanthate ?

Enanthate contains more raw test than the mixture in sust.

Did I forget to mention the sust flu? The long build up of this? The long duration it takes to leave the body due to the decanoate ester?


Now before I start writing a book on this I want a serious discussion with all you sust lovers

Peace

[JRMY2711]

HEY GAME IM RIGHT WITH YOU ON THAT MY BOY AT HOME TOLD ME THAT SUST WAS ONE OF THE CLEANEST AS SO I STARTED STUDYING ON IT AND I FOUND ONE SITE THAT SHOWED HOW BAD SUST WAS. SAID IT CAN CAUSE NASEA DIAREA HIGH FEVER AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER STUFF DEFFINITLY TURNED MY HEAD ON THAT. SO IM GOING TO FIND ME A DIFFERENT STACK.
HEY ALSO THANKS FOR THE INFO AND IF I REMEMBER THAT SITE I WILL COME BACK AND POST IT FOR YOU

[bigtraps]

So are you saying go with enethante, when using test?

Yes i do agree that sus is bad for water retention.. atleast for me anyways..

[The Iron Game]

I am saying enanthate /cypionate (which are almost identical but for one carbon atom) should be used because you do not have to worry on the timing/frequency of injections. Because you can front load it to start seeing higher peak blood plasma levels reached much quicker. I cringe everytime I read someone is doing 250mgs of sustanon a week because prop and phenly prop should be shot much more frequently than once a week.

[JRMY2711]

HERE IS THE SYMPTOMS I READ FOR SUST THE OTHER DAY.

cases of impotence, chronic priapism, epididymitis, inhibition of testicular function, oligospermia, and bladder irritability. Some people that take sostanon 250 have reported "flu like" symptoms as well. These symptoms include a higher than normal fever, stomach aches, being tired, etc.

I FOUND THIS AT:

http://www.anabolex.com

it was under drug profiles

[The Iron Game]

JRMY2711, thanks for looking that up. Dont get me wrong any form of test can cause those symptoms but in 9 out of 10 cases people will generally feel the flu when using this over any other esterified test (if succesptible to this side effect)

On another note, dont get me wrong I think sust does have its uses but not in the average newbie cycle.

Peace

[Billy Boy]

Don,t want to piss on anyones fire but surely we could all find lists of negatives for each particular AAS.

The side effects depend on each person using them as we all know even with convential drugs some respond well some do not.I know of people who have used Sust for years and never fault it and one guy who hates the stuff.

I,m not dismissing what you guys are saying just lets not write off everything just from what we read b,c someone has had some benign side effects

After all if it works for you and you are happy with it why change ?

JMO guys and good to see you around IG

Billy

[juiceon]

I agree that unbound test is the same, but since sust has four different esters, and each releases at a different time, the four "peaks" give the user a more consistent level of unbound test over the same/given period of time. Since the test is released over time (as opposed to having one peak), there is no flood of test for conversion to a flood of estrogen, which causes the water and fat retention with enanthate . With something like enanthate, which has one ester type bound to all test, there is only ONE peak over the same period of time - the time it takes the ester to break free. Does enanthate magically release its esters at a steady rate? With enanthate, each ester bound test is the same X = X = X . . . . so what happens to one, happens to all.

It's like saying between now and 14 days from now we are going to start at 0 and end at 0. With enanthate (for eg.) we will hit the top of the scale (let's say 10) once. With sust., we will hit the top of the scale (relatively speaking I would put it at a 7.5 based on experience with the two) four times. Hitting the top 4 times over the same period of time is certainly more consistent than hitting it only once.

Don't get me wrong, I like enanthate and the other straight tests too (actually test depot the best, which has two different esters and is in that respect somewhat similar to sust.) but I avoid the straight tests when I want to avoid getting the pumpkin head look or putting on fat. Regardless of a scientific analysis, that's just how it is for me. You could call one formula red and the other formula blue, and after one cycle of each I would tell you that one caused me to hold more water, gain fat, and show gyno symptoms than the other.

[juiceon]

Originally posted by Billy Boy
Don,t want to piss on anyones fire but surely we could all find lists of negatives for each particular AAS.

The side effects depend on each person using them as we all know even with convential drugs some respond well some do not.I know of people who have used Sust for years and never fault it and one guy who hates the stuff.

I,m not dismissing what you guys are saying just lets not write off everything just from what we read b,c someone has had some benign side effects

After all if it works for you and you are happy with it why change ?

JMO guys and good to see you around IG

Billy

Now that I have to agree with wholehearedly.

[The Iron Game]

Hey Billy Boy, hows tricks and which part of the UK mate?

It is not so much of stepping on anyones feet. Of course you will find negative side effects with any steroid . And there is no doubt people get results off sust. And this is not from what I read. This is from a chemical/biological and scientific point of view.

IMHO Unless someone is doing over 750mgs / wk of test then they should stay clear of sust.

Sustanon :

30mg testosterone propionate
60mg testosterone phenylpropionate
60mg testosterone isocaproate
100mg testosterone decanoate

Propionate should be shot every other day (daily still being better) and in the range of 50-100mgs

Phenylprop should be shot every 3rd day and in the range of 100 - 150mgs

The other esters are a good combination.

Sustanon was designed specifically for medical patients and for the infrequency of injections. It can do little favours to the newbie bodybuilder when compared to enanthate .

I think I am either going to track down a graph to show blood plasma levels of enanthate compared to sust or will be busy creating one myself.

Peace

[Billy Boy]

Hi IG

When you get a graph of the blood plasma levels I,d be interested in seeing it.

As for which part of the UK South East bro near the coast

Billy

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by juiceon
[B]I agree that unbound test is the same, but since sust has four different esters, and each releases at a different time, the four "peaks" give the user a more consistent level of unbound test over the same/given period of time. Since the test is released over time (as opposed to having one peak), there is no flood of test for conversion to a flood of estrogen, which causes the water and fat retention with enanthate.

No, no no no no, unfortunately this is not true. An increase in estrogen will result as a form of what ever test you are using. The aim of the cycle is to reach maximum blood plasma levels as quick as possible and continue this throughout the cycle until it is ended. Once you have say 500mgs of test flowing in your system (regardless of which ester you are using) then estrogen conversion is the same. But anyway that is not the point of this post, that will be a whole new topic on its own That is what aromatase inhibitors are for.

Ok I defintely need those graphs and then it will be much easier to see what happens when you inject 500mgs of sustanon compared to 500mgs of enanthate .

I am not saying you are this person, but I am growing tired of people doing injustice to themselves and/or others by reading outdated information and then trying to justify it without fact or scientifical explanation.

You may get fat on enanthate but not on sustanon? No I cannot believe this for one minute without a possible explanation. Diet was different, other steroids were also used. Different amounts of estrogen reducers / blockers being used and so on. It is just not so. I myself have become ripped to shreds on enanthate and I know I can do it on sust as well. 9 out of 10 guys at the top all select test as a base for any cycle they do. I know this for a fact. By preventing the estrogen conversion you are preventing all estrogen related sides including gyno, female pattern fat distribution and so on. By following a clean diet and watching calorie intake you are preventing this fat.

BTW its great to be at another board where people discuss rather than flame.

Peace

[juiceon]

Originally posted by The Iron Game


An increase in estrogen will result as a form of what ever test you are using. The aim of the cycle is to reach maximum blood plasma levels as quick as possible and continue this throughout the cycle until it is ended. Once you have say 500mgs of test flowing in your system (regardless of which ester you are using) then estrogen conversion is the same.

You may get fat on enanthate but not on sustanon ? No I cannot believe this for one minute without a possible explanation. Diet was different, other steroids were also used. Different amounts of estrogen reducers / blockers being used and so on. It is just not so. I myself have become ripped to shreds on enanthate and I know I can do it on sust as well. 9 out of 10 guys at the top all select test as a base for any cycle they do. I know this for a fact. By preventing the estrogen conversion you are preventing all estrogen related sides including gyno, female pattern fat distribution and so on. By following a clean diet and watching calorie intake you are preventing this fat.

BTW its great to be at another board where people discuss rather than flame.

Peace

My question then is this: I have just started a cycle where I used 100 mgs. of straight phenyl prop. every 4 days for two weeks (I stacked this for the first two weeks with 15 mgs. of dbol ). There is no question that the prop. hit me right away (when test hits me hard, I get insomnia, horny as hell, and feel warm). OK, so at some point the pheyl prop/test becomes inactive - How long (from the day of injection) before the phenyl prop test has no effect?

In my case, I do not take sust. (when I take it) for the phenyl prop. alone. It is not an objective of mine to keep phenyl prop. active, so I don't inject sust. every 3-4 days. I use sust. for the combination of all four tests over a weeks period. The advent of anti-aeromatizers and estrogen blockers does not change the utility of sust. I personally am able to use less of these "blockers" with sust. than I am with enanthate.

But more to the point, I enjoy getting jacked on sust. within a day of the shot, whether it be at the beginning, middle, or end of a cycle. For whatever the reason may be (and I have a feeling it has to do with receptor downgrade) I make significant gains throughout a long sust. cycle, and the pounds come on typically within days of the shot, whether it be at the beginning, middle, or end of the cycle. With enanthate, I just don't make quality gains after about week 5. So, consistent with your analysis, it may just be that the roller-coaster test levels of sust. are what keeps the receptors confused. In contrast, the persistent, constant level of test you get with enanthate leads to faster receptor downgrade.

[The Iron Game]

juiceon, before I write a book I want to know on which amount of sust you are talking about and how many times you inject it / week



Something else I just found while looking for those graphs. Written by Stew Meat. Now I know this doesnt answer your question but you will understand when I get the time to explain all this in fine detail. Once again I am not saying sustanon should not be used period, it does have its uses. Just not in the newbie 250mgs or 500mgs / wk of test cycle.

Peace

-------

The problem with Sustonon/Omnas is that they contain both long and short esters. If you injected only a long ester such as isocaparate, there woudl be a steady release from the time of injection and throughout the lifespan of the ester... However, you inject omna or sustonon,, which contain various esters.... you get bouncing hormone levels in a "W" fashion. The prop will inflate your hormone levels for 2 days then it drops. You inject again, and the levels shoot up, then trough 2 days later. Even though it contains 250mg of testosterone , that testosterone is bound by esters. It will take at least 4 weeks before most of the esters can be broken down. That means that that 500mg/wk injection can be divided by 4 (roughly) and yeild an average of 125mg per week... So the first week you start an Omna/Sust cycle, you are only getting a very small amout of testosterone that is mostly going to be from the prop because the rest is bound by long acting esters. So for example, on Monday, you may have 30mg circulating, unbound test, Tuesday 25mg circulating, Wednesday 20mg circulating, Thursday 10mg circulating, Then Friday after another injection, 35mg circulating... Up and down... Then eventually, after 5-6weeks, levels of the long releasing esters will accumilate and at 8 weeks when you stop your cycle, you have a moderately high level of androgens in your system that may take months to return to normal. You have no idea when exactly to start clomid therapy... If Omna is injected EOD, it is more effective but one woudl eventually accumilate an extremely high level of testosterone which will have an indefinate lifespan in the body.

However, enthanate is started on Monday and Friday and an even flow/release of hormone is acheived. The life of Enthanate is 10 days at 200mg/wk or 14 days at 600mg/wk... Enthanate is very predictable and clomid therapy can start 1.5-2 weeks after the last injection. This is why you don't see many experienced users use Sustonon or Omna, they use enthanate/cypionate or prop...... You will see better results.

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of Omna/Sust... and the markup on sustonon is unbelieveable.... the reason, newbies think that 4 esters are better than one. Some think that there are seperate receptors for each ester. So it sells... so sources are free to jack up the prices and profit from people's lack of education of steroids .

You will not get more bloated from one ester as opposed to another and you will NOT see better gains from one ester over another. It is only a matter of the amount of testosterone in your system. One 1400mg injection of enthanate is like injecting 100mg of pure testosterone per day, but one 1400mg injection of propinate is like injecting 500mg per day of pure testosterone. Enthate takes 2 weeks to clear and propinate takes 3 days to clear. But it the EXACT same testosterone. You will NOT experience difference in gains with one ester as opposed to another just as one bottle of distilled water is not different from another brand. Its all the same thing. The only differences lies within release times.

It does not depend on "who you are." One person will NOT respond better to any one particular ester.

[juiceon]

IG - for simplicity, my sust. cycles go 750 mg. for week 1 and 500 mg. for each following week. Cycle lengths vary but assume I use sust. for 8 weeks total.

FYI - if this matters at all - on my last "big" cycle I used 500 mg. of depot test for the first two weeks, 500 mg. of sust for weeks 3-8, and 500 mg. of depot test for weeks 9 and 10. I did it like that because I do like the effects of enanthate , but I just don't gain persistently on it. That cycle also included 400 mgs. of deca /week for the whole 10 weeks, as well as dbol at varying dosages, and I even used 500 mgs. of primo depot for one week (just 5 vials I had lying around and nothing better to do with), and of course, during weeks 6 and 7 your favorite HCG .

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by juiceon
and of course, during weeks 6 and 7 your favorite HCG .

Oi, dont even get me started

[bad brains]

Good post game, good to see you on other boards also..........

[CYCLEON]

I knew it would be just a matter of time before IG started beating this horse - look bottom line is that sust is ok if u got it but;

1. overpriced vs similar results with single ester
2. needs to be injected EOD or ETD to get the benefit of the prop
3. is harder to control for front loading, which most experienced users are doing now
4. does seem to be slightly more likely to give u the flu than any single ester.
5. see #1 again

If you need a multi ester, ud be better off with aratest IMO and inject EOD or ETD.

all that said - a newbie can still take 375mg of sust and shoot it 1x per week and still gain 20lbs if they eat/train right. its just that maybe they could have gained 25lbs instead.

[juiceon]

Originally posted by juiceon
IG - for simplicity, my sust. cycles go 750 mg. for week 1 and 500 mg. for each following week. Cycle lengths vary but assume I use sust. for 8 weeks total.

Forgot to add - all in one injection one time per week.

[The Iron Game]

Cycleon, it is far from a dead horse. Look around, look all over the net and you will come to this conclusion.

And those graphs will be posted within a few days, gotta make them myself

[CYCLEON]

id certainly like to see them - only stewmeat hates sust more than u

personally, ive used it with good results but now i like to do prop or go with eth myself

[jssmc]

I hear all the things you guys are saying and they may be true in some cases, but at least not for me and my bro. Our first cycle was sus at 500mg/wk for 8 weeks. I gained 15 pounds and my strength gains were freaking crazy. Water retention was not a problem and I felt fucking awesome. I liked it so much that now I'm stacking it with equipoise for 12 weeks. Anyway, that's is my little story.
Go sustanon !
jssmc

[zion]

Fu( there is ups and downs to every AS.. give it up buddy! What is this propraganda shiet! How do u figure that sustanon retains water and aromatizes?? where is this scientific proof?? i think you are speaking from personal experiences or hearsay! Seriously, these type of threads are so fuct, cuz when a newbie comes on asking what should i take for a first cycle.. everyone jumps the gun and says sustanon and deca ! This thread should be erased, this is misdirecting for newbies!

[CYCLEON]

zion - no room on this thread for flames, least of all for IG who has been in the game for quite awhile. Id like very much to see your opinion on results or theories or benefit from your wealth of experience but name calling isnt warranted.

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by zion
Fu.. give it up buddy! What is this propraganda shiet!

you are a funny guy, im sure you are going to get on very well here.

cuz when a newbie comes on asking what should i take for a first cycle.. everyone jumps the gun and says sustanon and deca! This thread should be erased, this is misdirecting for newbies!

and you tell me im speaking from hearsay, a joke if ever I saw one.

tell me how much you know about deca

and please tell me what makes sustanon any safer than any other form of esterified test apart from the fact that on an mg to mg basis it contains less testosterone than any other.

and a little advice, if you want to make friends or be welcomed on any board on the net, I would suggest changing your attitude from the typical 15 year old who hangs at yahoo chat all day while at school and more towards a mature person who can make conversation.

I would go on but without a doubt in my mind the only reason you will even show up on this thread anymore is to appologise or to swear some more because you dont know the answers to the questions put forward. So a good day to yourself and look forward to you educating me

Thanks Cycleon

[zion]

You're right, i won't be swearing anymore on this thread cuz, its bullshiet! I don't care how long you been juicing for or how much time you sit in front of the monitor. But, i want to hear why from the big and high almighty IG why all the other tests don't aromatize like sustanon (from which you claim) ... where is your proof?

And I didn't see any name calling in my reply so Cycleon stay out of it!! IG is an adult, he can handle is own beef!

And IG i know just as much as you, since the same information that is available to all of us in books and the net is the same!! So don't front like you know your shiet and like you wrote the scriptures of anabolic steroids ... i do plenty of research and have been for a long ass time, in books and on the net and all the info is the same. All the threads are the same... elite, anabolex, fitnessboard, etc.. same shiet, different smell!

I ain't hear to start beef but, when i see a title of a thread saying "why NOT to use sustanon" ... its just bullshiet cuz, your basically dictating newbies and spreading your OWN propaganda... so don't you think i will run and hide from my replies cuz i won't, i'm a man and i can stand on my feet and handle my beefs.

[zion]

And by the way... how come you didn't post this thread on elite, prove me wrong if i'm wrong please but, i did a search on your posts and this one didn't come up! I think you would lose your mod image if you were to post one like this! Alot of knowledgable brothers over there would get you on this one, I have been on elite for a long time and have seen you there since the days i started loggin on (which was over a year agao) and i remember you asking questions just like the rest of us, so i just don't understand where you have the right to sit on your high horse and spread this bullshiet?!?

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by zion
[B]IG why all the other tests don't aromatize like sustanon (from which you claim) ... where is your proof?

Please tell me where in this thread I have stated other tests do not aromatise like sustanon ? Stop making things up!

And IG i know just as much as you, since the same information that is available to all of us in books and the net is the same!!

Please state where in this thread I said I knew more than you? Stop making things up!

i do plenty of research and have been for a long ass time, in books and on the net and all the info is the same.

FYI most information on the web is outdated and wrong

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by zion
And by the way... how come you didn't post this thread on elite

You have just gone against everything in your other posts?

Why I didnt post this on elite?

Well do a search and you will actually see I have in other posts.

And actually 90% of the veterans on elite as well as bio chem majors, chemists and so on all agree.

Go start a fight some where else. I dont like your maturity level one bit but I have dealt with enough people in my time. I can handle anything you throw at me without the need to resort to name calling.

[The Iron Game]

Originally posted by zion

And IG i know just as much as you, since the same information that is available to all of us in books and the net is the same!!

Please tell me how much raw testosterone is in 250mgs of sustanon ?

I will give you how ever many days you need. Should give you time to find a chemist some where.

[zion]

Originally posted by The Iron Game

I have read sustanon causes less water retention, sustanon causes less chance of getting gyno and less sides overall. This is not true one bit.

Peace

Stop being a fool and explain! Read Read dawg!

[zion]

Originally posted by The Iron Game


FYI most information on the web is outdated and wrong

So are you saying you don't use the net for information?? Hmm... i would find that hard to believe!

And where is the immaturity in my replies, i think you are on the same maturity level as me if you keep replying like so... dawg, if you gonna reply, reply with some proof and educate me futher, all you replies are directly to me and contain no arguments on the matter that we are supposed to be discussing.

And please do post the exact thread with the title of at elite fitness.

[zion]

Originally posted by The Iron Game



tell me how much you know about deca

Are you not implying that you know more about deca than me... sounds like it to me and with this thread, sounds to me like you think you know more than anyone by spreading your own propraganda, i think you just speaking on personal experiences dawg.

[The Iron Game]

Zion you can interpret my post/s in which ever manner you like. 10 years ago and even to this day everyone says use sustanon its safer, it causes less water retention, there is less chance of gyno, it has 4 'different tests in it' (esters) and so its more effective. The fact remains that it is no more safe than any other form of test, it takes longer to build up to reach levels required and so on. So just because everyone says to use sust I will not nor will I recommend it to newbies. I have if you read correctly in my post said it does have its uses and the more advanced user could benefit from it. Enanthate builds up faster, is in and out of the system faster and is as safe as sustanon. So no, I see no reason why I will recommend a newbie to use sust. The fact of your name calling and your first post says to me enough of what I need to know to understand how 'mature' you really are.

This is a discussion board where topics are discussed and I did not say I dont or didnt get my information from the internet, but I know the difference between documented and scientific fact over what my friend told me.

I will not argue or even bother replying to your posts further, just to add the graphs when I get a chance of doing them. It seems you read a post, believe you understand the message and then try and put words in other peoples mouths. Over 90% of what you have stated I said isnt even so.

To all others who read this appologies as I dont normally lower myself like I have done.

Peace

[CYCLEON]

see thats better

well one reason IG doesnt post this on elite is cause Stewmeat (another Mod) always beats him to it. There are several otehr Sust haters there as well. Go post a thread entitled "Why I love Sust" and see if you dont get 1/2 saying "yeah!" and most of the vets blowing ur doors off. i think the both of you should try to prove ur points with some eveidence or studies. Id certainly like furtherance on this issue, tho i have my own opinions.

He is also correct that much of the information that u can read in WAR and several other books is now outdated. doesnt mean it wasnt good stuff and its a great place to start but as always the science of BB continues. To give an example, just in the last year alone the theories on the optimal methods of DNP supplementation have changed i cant even tell u how many times - from a CKD to a 33/33/33 now to a 50/30/30 diet - now instead of carb depleting the first few days, you shouldnt, and go high carbs through out the cycle - instead of short, intense cycles, people are trying long ones - to supp T3 or not and when - now we have regular and crystal - and etc. point is continued review makes it better - and im sure, like u said IG does get quite a bit of info from the net, including these boards - he aslo has a wealth of his own experience to draw on.

No matter what tho, vets arent always correct and fight very contentiously on certain issues - for example to use or not to use deca - some like it some dont thats opinion - the pharmacology of sust however can be clearly and objectively set forth and opinions can be made on there own

BTW:

Please tell me how much raw testosterone is in 250mgs of sustanon?

ooh, ooh, i know, i know, pick me, pick me - are we talking about "regular" or chinaman special? and is that meant to imply 250mg of raw powder or 1ml @250mg Sust?

[Mike]

NO FUCKING WAY AM I LISTENING TO THIS SHIT

I stayed out of this post for a while because I thought it was really interesting to read the discussion - the mature and intelectual conversion of thoughts and ideas - but it is a far different thing to watch you (Zion) come on here like some raving fucking lunatic putting your mouth where it really should not belong. I appreciate ALL members opinions and love to hear a good conversation based on intelect but you conduct yourself in such a juvenile manner it digusts me. If you have an opinion that is backed up scientifically and you are truly confident in it you shouldnt have to go calling names and being a bitch. That IS NOT how it's done - Iron has more than paid his dues as far as I am concerned and he has earned the right to debate issues in a more respectful, mature, intelectual manner - You know - I welcome EVERYONE that comes on here and I almost NEVER flame anyone but you fucked up bud and I won't sit here and listen to your bullshit - you start debating this maturely or don't come around......

If you have some personal vendetta with IG that's fine by me - but email him - I dont care to read this shit here

[Billy Boy]

IG thats a great post bro and is very interesting I enjoy reading things like this great job and whether you agree with it or not you should have an open mind to all aspects of AAS

Zion I think Mike has said what everyone on the board thinks don,t be a jackass everyone shows each other respect and you show none.If you want to conduct yourself in that manner I,ll give you some site names where they speacialize in that sort of behaviour.

Billy

[tuff]

Why do you guys think stroids are illegal? When any drug is miss used it will cause negative effects. I use sus250 and have never had a problem and only go with 500mg a week, so your thought on it not being used to its fullest at less then 750mg is inaccurate. You can point the "bad roid" finger at any of the roids on the market but side effects are going to go with the person, their body, and how much they use. oh no, some people get sick while they are on sus250, well don't do it then. What about the people in this world that get parralized from injecting, so i guess that the drugs that they use are pretty bad, by your guys thoughts. Think about that.

[The Iron Game]

tuff, you fail to read the post accurately. Sustanon is no safer than enanthate or cypionate or propionate or phenylpropionate. It is no sager period!

It takes longer to see results, it takes longer to leave the system.

What part of this post is failing to be understood

[The Iron Game]

btw of course you will get results with sust, no one is disputing this. but dont be swayed by my friend said sust was safer or I read sust was safer.