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  1. #1
    CYCLEON Guest

    Lightbulb Esters VS. Blood concentrations - How often should I inject?

    POSTED BY ANDY13


    I can tell people are confused about this so I thought I would put up a post by Andy13 who is a chemist extraordinaire (phD candidate) that explains things in clear english.

    ------------
    If you are planning a 10 week cycle, the goal is to be at highest blood concentrations for as many of the 10 weeks as possible.

    If you use a long ester such as deca at xmg/week, it will take you 4-5 weeks to build up to max blood concentrations possible for xmg/week. So half of your cycle is not wasted, but you are not maximizing efficiency.

    When coming off a cycle, the waiting period before clomid therapy begins will vary depending on the type and dose of the AAS. If you ran 500mg/week of deca for 10 weeks, a month after your last shot, you will still have around 200mg of esterified deca in your system. This is more than enough to prevent recovery. This is the reason why recovery is more difficult with a deca (or another long acting ester).

    Let's calculate the amount accumulated in the body after 6 weeks of 500mg/deca. Let's say you inject it once a week and we'll give it a 1.5 week half life. Note that injection frequency makes a huge difference in blood concentration stability but no difference in amount of esterified in the system

    E (greek letter "sigma") 500*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) from n=0 to n=6. So after 6 weeks, about 1300mg of esterified nandrolone remain in the body.

    Now lets see how long, after the initial injection, it takes to reduce to a small enough amount that permits recovery.

    1300*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) After 3 weeks, 325 mg of esterified remain

    after 6 weeks, 81 mg of esterified remain.

    After 8 weeks, 32mg of esterified remain.


    Most guys go with "time on=time off." This will not work with long esters as I have demonstrated above. For at least a month after your last shot you are in what I call a "time in-effiency" period where you are no longer reaping the benefits of you AAS but you are not recovering either. The goal of the modern cycle is to minimize this wasted time.

    The key components are:
    1) Front end loading this cuts down on wasted time in the beginning of your cycle waiting for the doses to reach full theraputic levels. This concept has been used before but (as far as I know) I was the first one to quantify it mathmatically. Zyg has taken the math one step further with a graph showing, visually, the importance. Graph of eq loading

    The use of orals in the beginning of a cycle is a popular component of a cycle. While I don't feel it is a nessecity, it too is a (different) type of front end load. For the advnaced BBer, dbol should be taken in the beginning of a cycle as well as loading the injectables since the anabolic response from dbol is alleged to be by a different mechanism than most injectables. If one had to chose between a dbol load and and injectable load, in most cases, the injectable load should be prefered over the dbol load.

    2) Injection frequency This is crucial to obtaining even blood concentrations of androgens. Ideally, the more often injected, the better. An acceptable rule of thumb is "inject at half of the half life." For instance, if the half life of a steroid is 7 days, this should be injected at least twice weekly. For cycles that involve multiple injectables, the injections should be fractioned out and divided up based on the injectable with the shortest half life. For instance, if you were doing a test propionate and deca cycle, the old school way to do it would be to inject the prop EOD and the deca once a week. Both compounds should not be viewed as separate, but together with total androgen concentration taken into consideration. If you injected the deca only once a week, probably along with one of the propionate injections, that day will have a much larger spike on total blood androgen concentrations. Instead, the deca should be split up and taken with the propionate injections, EOD. This way there is no one day of the week that has a "spike" and even blood concentrations are maintained throughout the week.

    3) Ending the cycle Switching to shorter esters toward the end of a cycle makes perfect sence however not too many guys incorporate this practice- perhaps because of the lack of variety of drugs. The modern cycle should include replacing long ester injectables with shorter ones so that recovery time is made more efficient. The necesity of switching to shorter esters toward the end of a cycle depends on the type of drugs used. Longer esters such as deca and eq should be replaced with shorter acting versions of these compounds no later than four weeks before the end of a cycle. Medium length esters such as t-enanthate and cypionate should be replaced no later than three weeks before the end of a cycle. A couple examples of appropriate replacements are: trenbolone acetate and testosterone propionate . There is no need to "load" these compounds in the middle of a cycle since 1) they are already "fast acting" and 2) blood androgen concentrations are already high.

    4) Recovery With the replacement of the faster acting injectables toward the end of a cycle, the "wasted" time between the end of a cycle and beginning of clomid therapy is reduced. For instance, if 100mg TA is used ED, clomid therapy may begin in as little as 5 days after the last shot. This tremendously impoves time efficiency. Clomid therapy usually last for four weeks. An excellent thread posted by The Iron Game describes this in further detail Clomid FAQ's .

    When the above recomendations are made, your cycle itself is made much more efficient and if recovery time is made more efficient as well, time "off" AAS may very well be reduced so that the overall efficiency of AAS use over time is tremendously improved.

  2. #2
    Lush's Avatar
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    Nice stuff. Point #2- in particular.

    The learning never ends boys and girls...

  3. #3
    Big Al's Avatar
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    Bump.

  4. #4
    sp33dg33k's Avatar
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    bump

  5. #5
    Mike Guest
    good post

  6. #6
    Nathan's Avatar
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    Andy isn't a PhD candidate. Chem is just a hobby, though he knows enough to post some helpful tidbits on AS. Good of you to move that over here though CYC.

  7. #7
    CYCLEON Guest
    thats what he told me nathan, its not for biochem tho, i dont think.

  8. #8
    Nathan's Avatar
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    He's an art major. His hero is Andy Warhol, hence the name. Where the fuck does this shit come from in my head? I swaer I can see it. I can almost touch it...... On a side note, I'm becoming more and more convinced that I have a semi-photographic memory ion the event that you care and what to know what's going on with ol' Nathan - not from remembering that alone it's just that I've been noticing that I know answers to things I saw a while ago but never paid any attention to at the time. Could be. Either that or I'm just really crazy. Maybe both.....probably both. What was I talking about again?
    Last edited by Nathan; 09-17-2001 at 06:26 PM.

  9. #9
    bigtraps's Avatar
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    Great Post!! At least it makes good sence..

  10. #10
    Lush's Avatar
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    LOL. Nathan

    man i think I have a pornograhic memory. I can only remember stuff if it helps me get laid. Anything else just fades to static.

    What did she say her name was?

  11. #11
    Nathan's Avatar
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    Touchee.

  12. #12
    Slapshot1 is offline Junior Member
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    LOL...Bump...my research is over Juiceon (SP?)

  13. #13
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    Great sh%t! You guys impress me all the time. To think that narrow minded people stereo type us as "Meat Heads, or Big Dummies". I don't think these people understand just how knowledgeable we really are ._Iwana

  14. #14
    Whiteyebrowe's Avatar
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    good bit of info.

  15. #15
    juiceon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Slapshot1
    LOL...Bump...my research is over Juiceon (SP?)
    Bah, Humbug!

    While I agree that this information is great and helpful, it does not address our question Ss. As stated at the beginning of the explaination: "the goal is to be at highest blood concentrations for as many of the 10 weeks as possible." With that goal in mind, he proceeded with his calculations.

    Our question, however, was whether it was beneficial to intentionally vary the blood concentrations (not drastically, but perhaps moderately or lightly) throughout the 10 weeks in an attempt to fool our receptors/feedback mechanism.

    For example, I've been on cycles where, at week 7 of a 10 week cycle, I feel like I am not gaining enough. So, that week I added 500 mg of primo depot (in 2 shots, two days apart) and exploded out of the "slump" with a drastic increase in weight, size, and strength. Now, obviously over that 10 week cycle I did not achieve the highest concentration of primo depot over many or all weeks, but rather I had a spike of primo depot that proved to be very beneficial. So spikes are not always bad, and maintaining a constant blood level concentration is not always good (but I will agree that it is good to a point).

    I believe that a perfectly constant blood level concentration leads to faster receptor downgrade. I further believe that your body responds positively to spikes, albiet for a short period of time, but that has proved in my case to be enough time to catapult me through the final weeks of a cycle. These spikes exist on top of, basically, a constant blood level concentration.

    This all has a lot to do with physiology, and muscle growth cycles from stimulation, to breakdown, to recovery, to growth. It is very complicated and involves many factors. Why is it that one will not grow at a constant rate for the entire duration of a cycle of 30 weeks of 500 mg. enanthate ? How do our bodies respond to "fight" the administration of test (beyond the conversion to estrogen)? The answers to these questions, in conjunction with the explaination given at the beginning of this thread, will provide a more complete picture of this whole topic. I don't have the answers, only questions . . .

  16. #16
    Billy Boy's Avatar
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    Good post

    Billy

  17. #17
    CYCLEON Guest
    juiceon - while ur suggestion is interesting, the evidence currently shows that steady blood levels of any drug is desireable over spikes - this has a lot to do with the body's physiological response and ability to adapt. Steady levels allow the restof the multifaceted process to be optimized - such as nutrients, protien synthesis, etc. Unfortunately receptor saturation is not one of the processes which seems to benefit by spiking. It has a lot more to do withthe binding affinity of the particular AS for a receptor as well as the density ofthe receptor type - these will better determine the upper limits of the saturation curve.

    Basically, u can spike an AS but if you are already at the top of your saturation curve, it wont do any good. If you are not yet and you add some more juice then you will gain benefit - but the same would be said if you upped your dose levels for a steady level that would reach the uppermost lmits of the curve.

    that is how I understand it. Id welcome any studies to the contrary tho.

  18. #18
    Slapshot1 is offline Junior Member
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    Sorry missed your post juiceon...I realized after I posted that he assumed that steady concentrations were desirable. I'm still on the hook

  19. #19
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    Cycleon - that makes sense to me. Let me think about this for a while though. What you are saying is that I possibly could take more juice and have continually greater gains. Maybe I am not taking enough juice in my cycles.

  20. #20
    CYCLEON Guest
    Originally posted by juiceon
    Cycleon - that makes sense to me. Let me think about this for a while though. What you are saying is that I possibly could take more juice and have continually greater gains. Maybe I am not taking enough juice in my cycles.
    thats possible, eating and other things have a lot to do wsith it tho as well remember.

  21. #21
    Psycoswole's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    bump, good thread

  22. #22
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    deca halflive 6 days

    A very good article.

    There are a few comments that I have.

    In my opinion the half live of deca from the injectionsite is 6 days.
    halflive from decanoaat to nandrolon is 4.3 hours, and the halflive for the body to get rid of nandrolon, less than 1 hour.

    What I do to calculate the amount that comes in the bloodstream every day, is:
    mg injected /2^1/halflive (days)

    I got this info from pubmed. If you have other sources, please tell me.
    I've roamed the net searching for halflive, and this was the only one I could find.

    Dino

  23. #23
    Andy13's Avatar
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    Originally posted by juiceon


    Bah, Humbug!

    While I agree that this information is great and helpful, it does not address our question Ss. As stated at the beginning of the explaination: "the goal is to be at highest blood concentrations for as many of the 10 weeks as possible." With that goal in mind, he proceeded with his calculations.

    Our question, however, was whether it was beneficial to intentionally vary the blood concentrations (not drastically, but perhaps moderately or lightly) throughout the 10 weeks in an attempt to fool our receptors/feedback mechanism.

    For example, I've been on cycles where, at week 7 of a 10 week cycle, I feel like I am not gaining enough. So, that week I added 500 mg of primo depot (in 2 shots, two days apart) and exploded out of the "slump" with a drastic increase in weight, size, and strength. Now, obviously over that 10 week cycle I did not achieve the highest concentration of primo depot over many or all weeks, but rather I had a spike of primo depot that proved to be very beneficial. So spikes are not always bad, and maintaining a constant blood level concentration is not always good (but I will agree that it is good to a point).

    I believe that a perfectly constant blood level concentration leads to faster receptor downgrade. I further believe that your body responds positively to spikes, albiet for a short period of time, but that has proved in my case to be enough time to catapult me through the final weeks of a cycle. These spikes exist on top of, basically, a constant blood level concentration.

    This all has a lot to do with physiology, and muscle growth cycles from stimulation, to breakdown, to recovery, to growth. It is very complicated and involves many factors. Why is it that one will not grow at a constant rate for the entire duration of a cycle of 30 weeks of 500 mg. enanthate? How do our bodies respond to "fight" the administration of test (beyond the conversion to estrogen)? The answers to these questions, in conjunction with the explaination given at the beginning of this thread, will provide a more complete picture of this whole topic. I don't have the answers, only questions . . .
    If you look at all the research with medicinal androgens where body weight gain is considered, you will see that there is an increase in body mass that occurs usually within the first six to eight weeks of treatment but does not increase after that (at the same dose) regardless of the duration of treatment. What this means is that you can grow so much off of a dose and then you will not grow anymore unless the dose in increased. I don't think this apply's to all BBers since most guys use doses so high that would provide similar gains in body mass if the same cycle is repeated over and over again.

    The point is, increase the dose, increase the gains. You said you were stuck on a plateau and then you increased your dose and you grew some more. Does that surprise you? Do you think it has more to do with the over-all dose increase or, as you say, "spiking" androgens?

    The best gains from AAS come from the most stable blood concentrations. Look at dbol . It is TREMENDOUSLY more effective if taken all throughout the day rather than once or twice a day. Same with injectable AAS-- You will grow more with a weekly dose of enanthate over a weekly dose of propionate -- Why? More stable blood concentrations.

    Lastly, I have to disagree with "spiking blood concentrations= less receptor down regulation." Can you point me to a reference for this?

    Andy

  24. #24
    dino2's Avatar
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    agree

    I'll agree with you completely
    If you experience a plateau, take some more

  25. #25
    Sokrates is offline New Member
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    that's the first time I have read that about dbol . How do you suggest dosing it? Specifically, I read on a different board once that there was some sort of minimum threshold level....Is this true or could you just divide 25mg into 5 evenly spaced doses of 5mg every 4 hours?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLEON
    Let's calculate the amount accumulated in the body after 6 weeks of 500mg/deca . Let's say you inject it once a week and we'll give it a 1.5 week half life. Note that injection frequency makes a huge difference in blood concentration stability but no difference in amount of esterified in the system

    E (greek letter "sigma") 500*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) from n=0 to n=6. So after 6 weeks, about 1300mg of esterified nandrolone remain in the body.

    Now lets see how long, after the initial injection, it takes to reduce to a small enough amount that permits recovery.

    1300*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) After 3 weeks, 325 mg of esterified remain

    after 6 weeks, 81 mg of esterified remain.

    After 8 weeks, 32mg of esterified remain.
    Sorry to be bumping an old thread but I need some help with the formulation. I'm way off and I can't get back to 1300mg. I know I'm doing something wrong but right now my mind is off.

    500*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5)
    500*e^(ln(0.5)6/1.5)
    500*e^(-.6931*6/1.5)
    500*e^(-2.7724)
    500*0.0625
    31.26

    Can someone enlighten me as to my F up.

  27. #27
    Money Boss Hustla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Money Boss Hustla
    Sorry to be bumping an old thread but I need some help with the formulation. I'm way off and I can't get back to 1300mg. I know I'm doing something wrong but right now my mind is off.

    500*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5)
    500*e^(ln(0.5)6/1.5)
    500*e^(-.6931*6/1.5)
    500*e^(-2.7724)
    500*0.0625
    31.26

    Can someone enlighten me as to my F up.
    I figured out what went wrong...flexgolf reminded me that I had to sum the results from 0-6.

    Now my question is...why is the formula using 1300mg as the initial injection value? Should it not be 500? It's not being frontloaded. The result in 3 weeks should be 125mg of esterified AS remain . Guys?

  28. #28
    Testify's Avatar
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    I think its a good time to bump this for those of us who actually read in this forum. Very good info here.

  29. #29
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    bump...very educational thread.

  30. #30
    powerlifter's Avatar
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    Big bump - good stuff

  31. #31
    statistic is offline New Member
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    wow! good stuff very helpful

  32. #32
    StayJuicen34 is offline Associate Member
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    I have a question I have mapped out a cycle and from what I reasd I got a bit confused I'n not sure itf I have the ong acting esters ending and the fast acting esters starting at the right time can I get some help:

    Week 1-4: Anadrol 100mg ED

    Week 2-15 Test Enanthate 500mg, EQ 400mg

    Week 12-18 Wintrol 50mg ED

    Week 13-17 50mg Anadrol ED

    Week 15-18 Propiante 50mg ED

    During Cycle Taking: Proviron 25mg ED, Nolvadex 10mg ED, Vitamin B-12 injections. Wanted to know what week I should start the HCG and clomid therapy.
    Last edited by StayJuicen34; 09-23-2005 at 09:52 AM.

  33. #33
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    So, should I switch to Propionate in week 9 of my 12 wk cycle of Cyp???
    I am going to be taking 500mg/wk of cyp for 12 wks as well as, 25mg/day of Proviron , and 10mg/day of Nolva. I want to keep as much of my gains as possible (as does everybody else) so I want to have to correct timing for my PCT...... Also, If I start to notice that I am not making anymore gains in my cycle - then, should I up the dosage about 100more mg/wk to see more gains?? Thanks for the clarification.

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