New guy here, looking for help with e2 issues - HCG monotherapy

**plat46** · 02-23-2015, 04:31 PM

Hey all, good to be here. Just stumbled upon this site and looks like a wealth of knowledge. Anyway,It's been a very difficult journey trying to get my T levels in order, starting to get tired of all the blood tests!

I am on HCG monotherapy, I've always done EOD (3 times a week) and at all different levels. Before treatment, I was at 252 for total T and I've reached as high as 830 total T. The problems I've been running into is high e2 (as high as 90) and my hemocrit is working it's way up, currently at 50.8%. I've tried Anastrazole but had a lot of sides from it, so AI's aren't the best for me.

When I began, I felt good with my T at 500 and my e2 was at 30 so I went back to that dose (500IU EOD) for the last 4 weeks and retested. To my surprise, my Total T came back at 720 and e2 at 70.

I spoke to my doctor, told him my concerns and he suggested 300IU twice weekly of HCG and to start a testosterone cream daily (150cc) rubbed onto my scrotum.

Does this sound logical? I'm afraid my hemocrit and total test will come way up with all this. I really don't feel like starting Testosterone either. I was hoping to just do HCG and worse case scenario just lower my dose to help with e2.

I also asked about just stopping everything altogether and he said that would be a bad idea.

Any help or suggestions much appreciated!

**zempey** · 02-23-2015, 04:54 PM

Did you try smaller doses of anastrazol? You probably don't need very much at all, .5mg every 3 days would probably be enough. How much did you take?

**Bio-Active** · 02-23-2015, 05:18 PM

Adex at .5 mg 2 x ew will knock that e down for sure

**plat46** · 02-23-2015, 05:33 PM

I did .25 twice a week which only lowered my e2 slightly. Then jumped up to .25 three times a week which again only lowered it to about 60. I was having tons of anxiety, some fluid retention etc.

How about the testosterone cream applied to the scrotum? Alot of sides wiht this? Im mainly concerned with myhemocrit coming up higher and fertility...of course any other dangerous sides.

**zempey** · 02-23-2015, 06:01 PM

I wouldn't think fluid retention would be caused from the AI, if anything it will lower fluid as the e2 goes down.

As for rubbing test cream on your nuts, I would pass on that one. I much prefer injecting my test.

**Rjay** · 02-23-2015, 09:26 PM

I have the exact same sides from adex as you, I need to get my e2 down but arimidex just gives me mad anxiety, it does knock the e2 down though quite effectively.

As for the cream on the scrotum I also did that for about 2 months, don't have bloodwork but the only side effect I noticed was increased hairloss (raises dht a lot in theory).

**lovbyts** · 02-23-2015, 11:38 PM

If adex does not work for you guys just try liquidstane.

I know some guys think putting the cream on their nuts works better but I have read just the opposite. You want it to get into your bloodstream, not necessarily your scrotum and I have read it will actually do damage.

**APIs** · 02-24-2015, 08:20 AM

OP should be donating blood to get Hematocrit down. I've personally never seen any long-term success with HCG therapy (alone) posted on this forum. If OP is pinning HCG 3 times a week, what would be the big deal adding 2 pins of Test Cyp via SQ anyway?

**plat46** · 02-24-2015, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

If adex does not work for you guys just try liquidstane.

I know some guys think putting the cream on their nuts works better but I have read just the opposite. You want it to get into your bloodstream, not necessarily your scrotum and I have read it will actually do damage.

I'll have to research liquidstane, work well?

Yea, damage is what I'm afraid of! I've read it raises DHT quite a bit too.

**plat46** · 02-24-2015, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by APIs

OP should be donating blood to get Hematocrit down. I've personally never seen any long-term success with HCG therapy (alone) posted on this forum. If OP is pinning HCG 3 times a week, what would be the big deal adding 2 pins of Test Cyp via SQ anyway?

I was under the impression I'm currently in the safe are with my hemocrit but don't want it to get higher. Honestly, I'm a big wuss with needles and blood and really would rather lower my dose to get my hemocrit down...I know I know, big wuss.

I don't think I'd be opposed to adding 2 pins of Test Cyp weekly except for that I'd imagine my e2 will go higher yet and so will my hemocrit.

So far, all this TRT seems like a dog chasing it's tail type of situation. Very frustrating.

**2Sox** · 02-24-2015, 09:51 AM

Plat46, What type of hypogonadism were you diagnosed with? Just curious.

As I see it, you'll eventually need TRT - so why not begin now? It's been my experience (and that of many others) that Adex too often produces uncomfortable side effects and it's difficult to get the dosing right. I'd suggest you switch to exemestane. Get a script from your doctor. If it's too expensive, consider UGL. I take 12.5mg every 6.5 days and it works very smoothly - so much so that I don't even feel I'm taking any medication. (This is very different from Adex which has an awful rebound effect.)

I'd also advise that you consider injecting T subcutaneously with an insulin syringe. If you're a "wuss", as you say - you barely feel it. Fat of the abdomen is best, but you choose. To help control E2 you can do what many here do; inject multiple times a week. This makes for a more steady state release of T into the bloodstream and virtually no T spikes. I prefer to inject daily but others here do 2 or 3 times per week. Whatever works for you.

Yes, transdermals in any form are known to make for higher DHT levels. Nice for libido but bad for hair.
No matter how you take your T, you have to keep an eye on hematocrit. Many here give blood every couple of months anyway. You not only help yourself but you help others.

**kelkel** · 02-24-2015, 10:09 AM

Good advice above. Op, most doc's in the know would agree that HCG mono-therapy just does not give the benefits and overall well-being that testosterone therapy does. Time to bite the bullet and get on a good protocol. Sounds like SQ administration would be your protocol of choice. Both T and HCG can be in the same injection.

**plat46** · 02-24-2015, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

Plat46, What type of hypogonadism were you diagnosed with? Just curious.

As I see it, you'll eventually need TRT - so why not begin now? It's been my experience (and that of many others) that Adex too often produces uncomfortable side effects and it's difficult to get the dosing right. I'd suggest you switch to exemestane. Get a script from your doctor. If it's too expensive, consider UGL. I take 12.5mg every 6.5 days and it works very smoothly - so much so that I don't even feel I'm taking any medication. (This is very different from Adex which has an awful rebound effect.)

I'd also advise that you consider injecting T subcutaneously with an insulin syringe. If you're a "wuss", as you say - you barely feel it. Fat of the abdomen is best, but you choose. To help control E2 you can do what many here do; inject multiple times a week. This makes for a more steady state release of T into the bloodstream and virtually no T spikes. I prefer to inject daily but others here do 2 or 3 times per week. Whatever works for you.

Yes, transdermals in any form are known to make for higher DHT levels. Nice for libido but bad for hair.
No matter how you take your T, you have to keep an eye on hematocrit. Many here give blood every couple of months anyway. You not only help yourself but you help others.

2Sox, thanks for the thorough answer! I'm secondary.

I will ask him about exemestane. Does that have a safe profile? Is UGL another type of drug? I've been gettign a ton of panic/anxiety and am not sure if it's the high e2 or the arimidex ...or both!

Regarding starting TRT, I think my main problem is I don't want to keep trying all these different things with my e2 & hemocrit high. I feel like I need to go back to baseline before I begin another form of therapy to get a true picture of my labwork. Besides that, I'm very concerned with the safety of TRT. I know there is a ton of controversy and that it' safe but I still worry about it. And my last fear, the hemocrit problem. I already know I'll prob run into this beings HCG runs it up. I really can't stand the idea of donating, even for a good cause. When blood leaves my body I faint. lol

While on this subject, let me ask you. Is it possible to just taper my HCG mono dose down to say 250iu EOD to bring my e2 and hemocrit down before I start another form of TRT such as the sub Q or transdermal?

I would be fine with SubQ shots, that's what i'm already doing anyway. Transdermal = hair loss, forget that route!

**2Sox** · 02-24-2015, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by plat46

2Sox, thanks for the thorough answer! I'm secondary.

I will ask him about exemestane. Does that have a safe profile? Is UGL another type of drug? I've been gettign a ton of panic/anxiety and am not sure if it's the high e2 or the arimidex ...or both!

Regarding starting TRT, I think my main problem is I don't want to keep trying all these different things with my e2 & hemocrit high. I feel like I need to go back to baseline before I begin another form of therapy to get a true picture of my labwork. Besides that, I'm very concerned with the safety of TRT. I know there is a ton of controversy and that it' safe but I still worry about it. And my last fear, the hemocrit problem. I already know I'll prob run into this beings HCG runs it up. I really can't stand the idea of donating, even for a good cause. When blood leaves my body I faint. lol

While on this subject, let me ask you. Is it possible to just taper my HCG mono dose down to say 250iu EOD to bring my e2 and hemocrit down before I start another form of TRT such as the sub Q or transdermal?

I would be fine with SubQ shots, that's what i'm already doing anyway. Transdermal = hair loss, forget that route!

The "controversy" surrounding TRT is horse-shit, for lack of a better expression. The info describing the health benefits of TRT is out there, researched responsibly and written of extensively. It may be overly simplifying but look at it this way; What can be dangerous about bringing your hormone levels to that of a man in his twenties IF you know what you are doing. And very often doctors who prescribe TRT don't correctly monitor their patients and that's when the problems begin. This won't be happening to you because if you are here - you ARE doing your homework so you'll KNOW what you are doing.

I think you are over exaggerating the effect of hCG in your mind. Yes, hCG does increase testosterone production somewhat but this varies from man to man. So don't get stuck on this. TRT may seem daunting at first, but after you do your homework you'll soon discover it's not that complex - and not at all difficult to manage on your own. Most guys here end up teaching their doctors a few things.

I'll be taking exemestane for as long as I need it. Commonly used by bodybuilders and guys on TRT. Safe? Why don't you look it up? By the way, UGL means UnderGround Labs. This merely means you get it from sources other than your pharmacy. I get mine from an Indian pharmaceutical company overseas. Monitor everything religiously with blood work and you'll know where you stand and you'll do fine.

**kelkel** · 02-24-2015, 06:21 PM

Op, you could also look into Aveed if your in the states or Nebido if across the pond. It's the longest estered testosterone and it's only about 5 shots a year. Initial shot, booster in about 6 weeks then approx every 10 weeks based on BW.

http://www.aveedusa.com/

**plat46** · 02-25-2015, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

The "controversy" surrounding TRT is horse-shit, for lack of a better expression. The info describing the health benefits of TRT is out there, researched responsibly and written of extensively. It may be overly simplifying but look at it this way; What can be dangerous about bringing your hormone levels to that of a man in his twenties IF you know what you are doing. And very often doctors who prescribe TRT don't correctly monitor their patients and that's when the problems begin. This won't be happening to you because if you are here - you ARE doing your homework so you'll KNOW what you are doing.

I think you are over exaggerating the effect of hCG in your mind. Yes, hCG does increase testosterone production somewhat but this varies from man to man. So don't get stuck on this. TRT may seem daunting at first, but after you do your homework you'll soon discover it's not that complex - and not at all difficult to manage on your own. Most guys here end up teaching their doctors a few things.

I'll be taking exemestane for as long as I need it. Commonly used by bodybuilders and guys on TRT. Safe? Why don't you look it up? By the way, UGL means UnderGround Labs. This merely means you get it from sources other than your pharmacy. I get mine from an Indian pharmaceutical company overseas. Monitor everything religiously with blood work and you'll know where you stand and you'll do fine.

Thanks for the words of encouragment, I appreciate the help!

Originally Posted by kelkel

Op, you could also look into Aveed if your in the states or Nebido if across the pond. It's the longest estered testosterone and it's only about 5 shots a year. Initial shot, booster in about 6 weeks then approx every 10 weeks based on BW.

Very cool, I need to research this more. Thanks man!