Hrt and erectile dysfunction/testicular shrinkage

**Matt muscle** · 06-15-2004, 08:04 PM

Hey guys, just wondering if anyone here can help with my test replacement therapy. I have been on test for about 15 months now. For most of this i have been using sustanon 250 weekly, but recently changed to primoteston(ethanate 250mg) for the past 2 months. In the beggining i had low borderline levels and think I have been like that most of my life, not that I had any tests done earlier than age 37, just experienced typical symptoms...
My doctor let me use higher dosages weekly..ie 250 mgs per week for the gym. for the first 6-8 months everything was great,..however I am experiencing lots of erectile difficulties in the past 6 months and loss of sensitivity in my penis and libido (worse since switching to the ethanate). My recent blood tests revealed high estrogen levels, 356 pmol/l,

when it should be under 150. my total test was 47 nmol/l (normal range 10-30) free test 214 pmol/l (normal r 25-120) From what i have read recently it sounds like my sex difficulties are the result of the estrogen build up in my system... Is this correct? I have lowered my dose in the past few weeks. However i was also concerned about the fact that my balls have shrunk alot and my ejaculate levels almost dropped to nothing, so the doctor gave me hcg to take 3 times a week a month ago. Since then my balls have almost returned to normal and the sensitivty has returned in my penis, i have some load now, erections are a little better but still not great... i guess this could still be the excess estrogen??
Should i be taking a estrogen inhibitor as well and is it ok to take the hcg on an almost permanent basis at doses of around 500-1000 ius 3 times a week to aviod the testicular shrinkage.
I realise i was probably taking too much test on a weekly basis when the dose should have been around 250mg per fortnight, but weekly shots are apparently much better to aviod the slumps... and I had a good doctor who allowed me to take extra for body building purposes.

i read on a post here that clomid increases ejaculate levels... can nolvadex do the same thing and could i use either of these instead of the hcg for the purpose of avoiding testicular shrinkage and promoting ejaculate levels whilst I am on test therapy. Any advice would be great or similar experiences from guys on test therapy.

**bitta** · 06-16-2004, 08:45 AM

well matt, that sucks but you know that. I would definatly stay wit the HCG for the testicular atrophy aspect because clomid and nolva arent going to help w/ that when your taking synthetic test, I would infact use the HCG and the nolvadex b/c firat of all clomid has a MILD anti-estrogen effect when on cycle so to speak where as nolvadex will definatly combat free estrogen in the body. Clomid is great for post cycle recovery but since you have been on for 15 months you IMO should definatly be taking arimidex or nolvadex for the build up, and yes estrogen is probably the reason this is happening, I noticed early on that the begining of a cycle libido is much stronger than the end of cycle. I am surprised your doctor hasnt recommended the use of an estrogen inhibitor already, but you really should consider it, and HCG is great for preventing atrophy of the testes so definatly keep that up(pardon the pun).

**Matt muscle** · 06-16-2004, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by bitta

well matt, that sucks but you know that. I would definatly stay wit the HCG for the testicular atrophy aspect because clomid and nolva arent going to help w/ that when your taking synthetic test, I would infact use the HCG and the nolvadex b/c firat of all clomid has a MILD anti-estrogen effect when on cycle so to speak where as nolvadex will definatly combat free estrogen in the body. Clomid is great for post cycle recovery but since you have been on for 15 months you IMO should definatly be taking arimidex or nolvadex for the build up, and yes estrogen is probably the reason this is happening, I noticed early on that the begining of a cycle libido is much stronger than the end of cycle. I am surprised your doctor hasnt recommended the use of an estrogen inhibitor already, but you really should consider it, and HCG is great for preventing atrophy of the testes so definatly keep that up(pardon the pun).

Thanks bitta!.... My doctor isnt that experienced with Hormone rep therapy, because i was borderline low, the endocrinoligsit i saw in the begginning told me i just had to live with my low levels...however my Gp, who is actually a mate, helped me out and allowed me to have the prescribed testosterone . So when I started having trouble with my big fella and libido after 6 or so months, we ran tests, but just for Ttest and free test and shbg and all was fine...but not for estrogen. I have only found out recently what that can do to a males libido!!!
I was suffering from depression before the HR therapy and that had returned at the same time my erectile dysfunction had started to happen again.. so my doc thought that was the cause. However my recent tests were for absolutly everything...and yes as i said earler my estrogen is way high.. more than double the upper limit. I convinced my doctor to prescribe me some hcg after being concerned about the size of my balls, so im glad you think its ok to continue with the hypogonadal dose of this medication. I have done so much reading on this subject and now realise the importance of balancing ALL the hormones... I just wanted to hear from guys with similar experiences to back up what I have discovered. What you say about your libido dropping off towards the end of a cycle, certainly confirms some of my thoughts on estrogen build up.
cheers mate.

**znak** · 08-03-2004, 06:38 AM

Matt:

So that you have a reference point, my doctor prescribed:

Cypionate 200mg/ml injection
Nandralone Decanoate 200mg/ml injection
Teslac 50mg #30 tabs
B-12 IM 1000mcg/ml 30ml
(HCG ) Novarel 10,000.00

I inject cyp twice a week, deca once a week.
I take 50 mg of teslacs every other day
and inject B-12 (2 ml) once a week (usually divide it into 1 ml monday and 1 ml on Thursday)

Two weeks after last injection of cyp, I inject 1,000 units of novarel daily for ten days concurrently with the B-12.

I am horny as hell all the way through the cycle which lasts 3 months through the HCG and then can repeat.

This is a very conservative, but pretty safe program.

Might be something to show your doc.

**Kevan** · 08-03-2004, 03:26 PM

Hi, interesting post as I have been going through something quite simular. Libido low and yet taking test, seems the Enanthate made matters worse for me as well. Estrogen levels came back as 455 !!!! Dr was surprised i had not grown breasts LOL Bad thing is he won't prescribe anything for me, but told me to take proviron if i can get my hands on it as it is safer than Tamoxifen . I was also taking 250mg every week but might cut it down to 125 a week, at least for a month to keep my Dr. happy

.
Thing is I had been taking a little tamoxifen but i guess not enough, only 20mg every other day. Goes to show the importance of blood work.

**AnabolicBoy1981** · 08-21-2004, 09:54 PM

i don't know why your boner won't work and you can't cum, but the estro levels are definetly from the switch from Sust to ethanate. Sust has a much more natural relaese time, and ethenate a much faster release, so conversion to estro make take place more rapidly. Get back on the sust. Sust is king of the testosterones IMO.

**Kevan** · 08-22-2004, 11:01 PM

got on the proviron and sex is wild again!!!! trust me.. use proviron as it will fix both the estrogen build up and the limp dick!!!!

**znak** · 08-23-2004, 02:22 AM

Proviron and teslac fulfill the same function- anti-estrogren.

You should be taking an anti-e, if you are taking test regardless of what form you are taking it in.

**Matt muscle** · 09-23-2004, 01:53 AM

Hey kevan... is the proviron still helping you out??... just wondering if the effects are continuing.. what dosage are you on?
cheers
Matt.

Originally Posted by Kevan

got on the proviron and sex is wild again!!!! trust me.. use proviron as it will fix both the estrogen build up and the limp dick!!!!

**dynamike** · 09-23-2004, 04:15 PM

Man this is frustrating...i started apost called muscle tears and shirinking nutz...due to the exact same situation...it had been rec by some to use clomid 35 ml..split up into two doses daily for 4 weeks..then off for two weeks...so I bought the clomid from the sponsor on this board and started right away...had a little hook up last night ..man it was everything i could do to keep it up...unbeleiveanble how the sust has knocked it out...im 9 weeks into it...at 500 cc a week...was going to go another 10..but am thinking of ending it now...since i started the clomid...and knock it off ..proviron or hcg ..seem to be the fixers to the prob..****..now i gotta work on gettin that...and Quick!!!

great post here very informative

BUMP!

**Matt muscle** · 09-23-2004, 04:38 PM

Dyna mike...
The 500 cc of sus is causing alot of Estrogen conversion. Your E2 levels are probably very high. This effects some guys alot more than others in the erection department. It took alot longer to effect me like that, but it eventually did. But i was using half your dosage. You need some sort of Estrogen control. Hcg is great for keeping your nuts working, a low dose 250ius taken throughout your cycle is a great idea, say 4 times a week.
I think all guys who do roids should take this stuff. Im on Hrt and take it permantly for the same reason.

Originally Posted by dynamike

Man this is frustrating...i started apost called muscle tears and shirinking nutz...due to the exact same situation...it had been rec by some to use clomid 35 ml..split up into two doses daily for 4 weeks..then off for two weeks...so I bought the clomid from the sponsor on this board and started right away...had a little hook up last night ..man it was everything i could do to keep it up...unbeleiveanble how the sust has knocked it out...im 9 weeks into it...at 500 cc a week...was going to go another 10..but am thinking of ending it now...since i started the clomid...and knock it off ..proviron or hcg..seem to be the fixers to the prob..****..now i gotta work on gettin that...and Quick!!!

great post here very informative

BUMP!

**dynamike** · 09-23-2004, 05:15 PM

WEll after a little research and callz...lol...u kats on hcg are very fortunate! so it looks like nolva or proviron ..gonna save the clomid for later(pct)...i knew the sust was doing this to me almost off the bat...I had done cyp b4 and had no effects..in fact the opposite..so indeed the enanthate or proprianate are effecting my estrogen levels...effects people differently ...great post here....no i just have to wait till next week I think...

its funny on my thread one guy says .."if you are worried about teste shrinkage and impotancy stay natural"...

glad i found this thread!!!