Self Injections...???

**aer_vlad** · 04-19-2010, 04:49 PM

Do most of you self inject?

My doctor seems very discouraging about self injections. He has patients who self inject, but said that he has a few who have died - my guess is they had an oil embolism.

I dunno, I feel visiting my doctor once a week for a shot is stressful and time consuming. Are self injections really that dangerous? I feel that with some safety precautions and common sense, I would be fine?

How would you all approach the situation with your doctor to convince him of self injections?

Does your doctor write you a script and you pick up test/needles from a pharmacy?

Another concern I have is my doctor doesn't prescribe hCG to TRT patients. I want to maintain fertility, obviously. According to him, if I maintain proper T-levels, fertility shouldn't be a problem. My ejaculation volume is lower then it used to be, but then again, at least I don't have erectile dysfunction like I did. I've also experienced some testicular atrophy, but had symptoms before I started TRT.

Thanks for any help!

It if helps: I'm currently taking 350mg test-cyp/week.

**durak** · 04-19-2010, 05:03 PM

If a Dr tells you he had several patients die.... RUN!

**B1gDaddy** · 04-19-2010, 05:21 PM

^ No he said he said that people have died from SELF-injecting, not from the doc injecting them wrong and dieing cause of it lol.

**Vitruvian-Man** · 04-19-2010, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by aer_vlad

Do most of you self inject?

yes.

My doctor seems very discouraging about self injections. He has patients who self inject, but said that he has a few who have died - my guess is they had an oil embolism.

I dunno, I feel visiting my doctor once a week for a shot is stressful and time consuming. Are self injections really that dangerous? I feel that with some safety precautions and common sense, I would be fine?

Not dangerous at all. research on www.s p o t i n j e c t i o n .com and you'll be good to go.

How would you all approach the situation with your doctor to convince him of self injections?

Tell him you don't have the time to be coming in once a week.

Does your doctor write you a script and you pick up test/needles from a pharmacy?

Yes.

Another concern I have is my doctor doesn't prescribe hCG to TRT patients. I want to maintain fertility, obviously. According to him, if I maintain proper T-levels, fertility shouldn't be a problem. My ejaculation volume is lower then it used to be, but then again, at least I don't have erectile dysfunction like I did. I've also experienced some testicular atrophy, but had symptoms before I started TRT.

You should use some HCG then. Talk to him about it.

Thanks for any help!

It if helps: I'm currently taking 350mg test-cyp/week.

That's a VERY high "TRT" dose bro...

-VM

**Epic Ed** · 04-19-2010, 05:49 PM

Your doctor sounds like a boob. There are risks from self injecting but all can be avoided with correct procedure. The worst would be injecting into a vein, which is easily avoided by aspirating the needle every time you inject. The other problem would be an abscess resulting from an infection at the injection site. That's easily avoidable by proper sterilization of the injection site and proper needle/syringe handling.

I must be one of the worlds biggest ninnys when it comes to needles. I have a man-card-revoking fear of needles and I have been able to overcome my phobia and self inject (IM) twice a week. Zero complications so far. Tell the doc you'd like to self administer. I had my first two in his office to get a good idea of what to do and he wrote me a script for the test cyp and needles. I picked them up from the pharmacy and took the stuff home. Simple as that. Hope you have the same opportunity.

**aer_vlad** · 04-19-2010, 06:31 PM

I have no problems with needles, shots, etc. - but in the words of my doctor:

"Out of the 100 or so patients I've had self inject, I've had a few die. While the odds are slim, a few deaths is too many for me to feel comfortable recommending self injections."

Initially, my doctor wanted to inject every other week. I told him no way, I'd rather have weekly injections and avoid the roller coaster. Even then, I feel slightly "off" by day 7.

My T-levels were 988 after taking 400mg/week. He backed down to 350mg/week. I thought this was reasonable?

As for hCG , I asked him about it and said it wasn't necessary. How do I convince him other wise? He also doesn't order labs for estrogen, which bothers me. How do I convince him of that? lol If my estrogen comes back anywhere near high, I feel he'll just lower the TRT dose instead of prescribing an AI.

Thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

**talstar** · 04-19-2010, 07:01 PM

Damn, is your Doc's last name Kevorkian?

**PPC** · 04-19-2010, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by aer_vlad

I have no problems with needles, shots, etc. - but in the words of my doctor:

"Out of the 100 or so patients I've had self inject, I've had a few die. While the odds are slim, a few deaths is too many for me to feel comfortable recommending self injections."

Initially, my doctor wanted to inject every other week. I told him no way, I'd rather have weekly injections and avoid the roller coaster. Even then, I feel slightly "off" by day 7.

My T-levels were 988 after taking 400mg/week. He backed down to 350mg/week. I thought this was reasonable?

As for hCG , I asked him about it and said it wasn't necessary. How do I convince him other wise? He also doesn't order labs for estrogen, which bothers me. How do I convince him of that? lol If my estrogen comes back anywhere near high, I feel he'll just lower the TRT dose instead of prescribing an AI.

Thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

Get your own labs for estradiol from one of the online ones that use labcorp or from Life Extension. They have thier annual sale from March - May. No doc needed.

Some doctors will not be convinced even when you take them in studies as evidence. HCG can be bought from overseas if neccessary. There are reputable online pharmacies out there that don't sell scheduled drugs so your mind can be at ease. Most states do not regard hcg as scheduled. There are less than 10 that do I think, so you'd need to find out the laws in your state for hcg. Many guys order from such pharmacies rather than domestically even with a prescription because it is so much cheaper. Hucog is the least expensive generic and works great.

There are ways to do this properly. Your doc is not doing this properly but use him for his script for T and whatever other tests he will do. With hcg you would not need 350 a week which is closer to a cycle.

If you start using hcg you'll be injecting on your own anyway so how much different will it be to do cyp at home too?

**THORSZ** · 04-19-2010, 09:37 PM

I have never heared of anyone dying and I have injected 100 times. I have been on this forum for years and never heard of anyone dying.
Also, 350 a week is a cycle. You should find a new doc.

**aer_vlad** · 04-19-2010, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by talstar

Damn, is your Doc's last name Kevorkian?

No, Denver area though?

Originally Posted by PPC

Get your own labs for estradiol from one of the online ones that use labcorp or from Life Extension. They have thier annual sale from March - May. No doc needed.

Some doctors will not be convinced even when you take them in studies as evidence. HCG can be bought from overseas if neccessary. There are reputable online pharmacies out there that don't sell scheduled drugs so your mind can be at ease. Most states do not regard hcg as scheduled. There are less than 10 that do I think, so you'd need to find out the laws in your state for hcg. Many guys order from such pharmacies rather than domestically even with a prescription because it is so much cheaper. Hucog is the least expensive generic and works great.

There are ways to do this properly. Your doc is not doing this properly but use him for his script for T and whatever other tests he will do. With hcg you would not need 350 a week which is closer to a cycle.

If you start using hcg you'll be injecting on your own anyway so how much different will it be to do cyp at home too?

Thanks for the recommendations, but I don't care to buy my own lab tests/hCG when I can get my insurance to cover them. Also, what would I do if say my E2 was high - I don't think the doc would prescribe me an AI, just lower my TRT dose.

Originally Posted by THORSZ

I have never heared of anyone dying and I have injected 100 times. I have been on this forum for years and never heard of anyone dying.
Also, 350 a week is a cycle. You should find a new doc.

What's the best way to approach the situation? I guess I should just be forth right and say I need to take an active role in my health and minimize the headache and stress of coming in on a weekly basis.

Also, at 400mg/wk, my testosterone was around 988 ng/mL. While yes, this is a high dose, my levels seem to reflect just the higher end of the range. Apparently I'm a hypermetabolizer?

**zaggahamma** · 04-19-2010, 10:29 PM

i trust myself way more than the nurses i've run into...i've seen nurses that didnt know wut the fu\ck i was talking about when i ask what guage needle do you use...

and to the op...goin in once a week to the doctor? no fcking way...does he get paid everytime/visit?

**awesome1** · 04-19-2010, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by talstar

Damn, is your Doc's last name Kevorkian?

LOL!

I have come to the conclusion that in order for me to get the TRT that I need, I must do countless hours of research on my own and couple that with some advice from a good doctor in order to really understand what I need. Once I have established that I simple do whatever I have to do to get it prescribed to me. (i.e. finding the right doctor)

**zaggahamma** · 04-19-2010, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by awesome1

LOL!

I have come to the conclusion that in order for me to get the TRT that I need, I must do countless hours of research on my own and couple that with some advice from a good doctor in order to really understand what I need. Once I have established that I simple do whatever I have to do to get it prescribed to me. (i.e. finding the right doctor)

by george...

**durak** · 04-19-2010, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by awesome1

LOL!

I have come to the conclusion that in order for me to get the TRT that I need, I must do countless hours of research on my own and couple that with some advice from a good doctor in order to really understand what I need. Once I have established that I simple do whatever I have to do to get it prescribed to me. (i.e. finding the right doctor)

quote of the day!

**durak** · 04-19-2010, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by B1gDaddy

^ No he said he said that people have died from SELF-injecting, not from the doc injecting them wrong and dieing cause of it lol.

"He has patients who self inject, but said that he has a few who have died"

They were still under his care... he at least has bad mojo or juju.

**Vettester** · 04-19-2010, 11:18 PM

That doctor is a liar. Just like the Endo who told me it was illegal for a patient to inject at home. These guys make shiat up to benefit their egos and shortcomings in this field. Dying?? ... Ask him who, look up their obits. If someone did die, it was from a chronic illness or something. Unless he has idiots doing lobotomy injections.

At one time, I had to go to a nurses station for shots. One biatch shot my ass right towards the bottom. Swear she nailed the sciatic nerve, it was sore for 3 days. That was the last time. Only 2 giving me shots are my wife and me.

Good luck ... Maybe look at a doc who works with HCG and without scare tactics. High amount of "T" for TRT. Has that been your ongoing protocol?

**durak** · 04-19-2010, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by aer_vlad

I have no problems with needles, shots, etc. - but in the words of my doctor:

"Out of the 100 or so patients I've had self inject, I've had a few die. While the odds are slim, a few deaths is too many for me to feel comfortable recommending self injections."

Initially, my doctor wanted to inject every other week. I told him no way, I'd rather have weekly injections and avoid the roller coaster. Even then, I feel slightly "off" by day 7.

My T-levels were 988 after taking 400mg/week. He backed down to 350mg/week. I thought this was reasonable?

As for hCG , I asked him about it and said it wasn't necessary. How do I convince him other wise? He also doesn't order labs for estrogen, which bothers me. How do I convince him of that? lol If my estrogen comes back anywhere near high, I feel he'll just lower the TRT dose instead of prescribing an AI.

Thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

The more I read about this guy the less I like. You may want to find another Dr. Since you have the labs already done, you could look for an anti-aging clinic that does mail order and get what you need sent to your house. (thats what I do)

**zaggahamma** · 04-19-2010, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by durak

The more I read about this guy the less I like. You may want to find another Dr. Since you have the labs already done, you could look for an anti-aging clinic that does mail order and get what you need sent to your house. (thats what I do)

nurse too?

**durak** · 04-19-2010, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

nurse too?

sorry, don't understand the question.

**zaggahamma** · 04-19-2010, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by durak

sorry, don't understand the question.

lame joke...sorry fellas...too tired...guess i'll dream about the nurse....night all

**durak** · 04-19-2010, 11:49 PM

lol... My wife would have a problem with a young hottie nurse being delivered to my door...

At that point TRT would then become pointless.

**StevePJC** · 04-20-2010, 09:25 AM

My doc is the same way about estrogen. Won't order tests for them and won't listen to me when I know I'm having issues. Gives me a lasik to flush water out of me - I kid you not one of those pills and I drop 17-20 pounds in a day. Gave me a kidney stone though so I've taken matters in my own hands and got some liquidex from AR.

**aer_vlad** · 04-20-2010, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by durak

The more I read about this guy the less I like. You may want to find another Dr. Since you have the labs already done, you could look for an anti-aging clinic that does mail order and get what you need sent to your house. (thats what I do)

My insurance limits me to specific doctors - and those usually don't include anti-aging clinics. I'll continue to look for other doctors in my area with TRT experience. Although, my current doctor seems to have quite a few patients on TRT (including clinics in Europe). He also realizes that gels are inferior, which is nice not to convince him other wise (although if I really wanted, he'd prescribe me gels).

Yeah, it's very frustrating working with doctors sometimes. Many seem not to care about the patient-doctor relationship. Decisions, especially when it concerns YOUR health, should be made TOGETHER, and not based on what HE feels - you're the patient and know how YOU feel...

Regardless, I'm having my levels checked again this coming week. I'll talk to him about self-injections. I feel that when it comes down to it, he prefers to inject patients simply for the a paid office visit. Do any of you have recommendations on how to approach the subject? I don't want to create bad vibes if you know what I'm saying. Once I get a decent TRT protocol, I'll look for other endo's in the area and try for second opinions (it's just hard with my situation: school, commute distance, insurance etc.).

Thanks for the help and insight guys. I appreciate it.

*edit*

My current protocol, which is at week 5, has been:

week 1/2: 800mg/wk (front load)
week 3/4: 400mg/wk
--t-levels checked: 988ng/mL
week 5: 350mg/wk

Before starting TRT, my t-levels were 38.5 ng/mL. FSH/LH were almost non-existent. Prolactin normal, TSH normal but low T3. I'm on Synthroid (levothyroxine). MRI showed no abnormalities. My gH and Cortisol stim tests were both fairly low - will recheck in 6 months.

**awesome1** · 04-20-2010, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by durak

quote of the day!

i guess that sounded kinda dumb

. I do get called captain obvious from time to time haha.

**durak** · 04-20-2010, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by awesome1

i guess that sounded kinda dumb

. I do get called captain obvious from time to time haha.

No it was dead on. I was not being sarcastic. I am going to steal that summary and use it without shame.

**awesome1** · 04-20-2010, 09:48 PM

hahaha ok by me

**ecsaaron** · 04-22-2010, 06:29 PM

Everyone wants to say 350mgs is a cycle.Thats crap.Eveyone is different,I take 400mgs a week and my levels stay at 700-800.So to just say that its a cycle is wrong.I started at 200 mg a week and it put me at just over 300.I dont come off of the 400mgs so im not cycling.Sorry just tics me off when somebody spews a blanket statement like that.

**zaggahamma** · 04-23-2010, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by ecsaaron

Everyone wants to say 350mgs is a cycle.Thats crap.Eveyone is different,I take 400mgs a week and my levels stay at 700-800.So to just say that its a cycle is wrong.I started at 200 mg a week and it put me at just over 300.I dont come off of the 400mgs so im not cycling.Sorry just tics me off when somebody spews a blanket statement like that.

you are right everyone is different and doses are individual but would have to say that is very interesting to see where your doses put your levels

**durak** · 04-23-2010, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by ecsaaron

Everyone wants to say 350mgs is a cycle.Thats crap.Eveyone is different,I take 400mgs a week and my levels stay at 700-800.So to just say that its a cycle is wrong.I started at 200 mg a week and it put me at just over 300.I dont come off of the 400mgs so im not cycling.Sorry just tics me off when somebody spews a blanket statement like that.

agreed. there is an attempt to make TRT be 200mg/wk or below without concern for the individual.

**ecsaaron** · 04-25-2010, 09:11 AM

Sorry for the rant but I see that statement over and over so i broke and had to spew.I normaly just sit back and read and try to learn.Its been a log road getting dialed in and my dr said he has only had a couple people at my dose with those results before so it was hard for him to up it over 200mg week.Sorry for the hi jack aer vlad

**aer_vlad** · 04-25-2010, 07:14 PM

I'll have my results sometime this week - I'll post then. Too bad my doc won't check my estrogen levels. I think they're high though - my libido is minimal (don't know why with 350mg of test).

**awesome1** · 04-25-2010, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by ecsaaron

Sorry for the rant but I see that statement over and over so i broke and had to spew.I normaly just sit back and read and try to learn.Its been a log road getting dialed in and my dr said he has only had a couple people at my dose with those results before so it was hard for him to up it over 200mg week.Sorry for the hi jack aer vlad

How often do you inject?? If you are doing once every two weeks or once a week the results could be off. If you get a shot on your DR visit and then he takes your blood 7 days after that at your next appt you could be in the valley so to speak in terms of test levels.

**lovbyts** · 04-26-2010, 03:56 AM

I agree with everyone. Find a new doctor. I have NEVER had a doctor aspirate when injecting me and I always do so who is being more safe?? ME.

I dont believe him. He just wants you to come back so he can chare for injecting you.

**aer_vlad** · 04-26-2010, 04:30 PM

Well, I talked with my doc:

According to him, he is unable to let me do my own injections. He said he used to let patients sign a waiver, but apparently his lawyer said not for him to do that since he's had patients (3) die from injecting themselves - in other words he don't let me self inject with his name on the script. He'll be held liable in a court of law.

He said I could ask my primary care physician to write me the script instead. I have an appointment with him tomorrow with all my paperwork. I have no idea how this is gonna play out.

I'll check my testosterone levels next time. He checked my thyroid, PSA, and CBC today. After reviewing my labs, I've noticed he only checks total-T, and not free...

**zaggahamma** · 04-27-2010, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by aer_vlad

Well, I talked with my doc:

According to him, he is unable to let me do my own injections. He said he used to let patients sign a waiver, but apparently his lawyer said not for him to do that since he's had patients (3) die from injecting themselves - in other words he don't let me self inject with his name on the script. He'll be held liable in a court of law.

He said I could ask my primary care physician to write me the script instead. I have an appointment with him tomorrow with all my paperwork. I have no idea how this is gonna play out.

I'll check my testosterone levels next time. He checked my thyroid, PSA, and CBC today. After reviewing my labs, I've noticed he only checks total-T, and not free...

i had my primary take over a script for self inject originally ordered from my endo and forwarded to even two more doctors since

**pittbulldad** · 04-27-2010, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by aer_vlad

Well, I talked with my doc:

According to him, he is unable to let me do my own injections. He said he used to let patients sign a waiver, but apparently his lawyer said not for him to do that since he's had patients (3) die from injecting themselves - in other words he don't let me self inject with his name on the script. He'll be held liable in a court of law.

He said I could ask my primary care physician to write me the script instead. I have an appointment with him tomorrow with all my paperwork. I have no idea how this is gonna play out.

I'll check my testosterone levels next time. He checked my thyroid, PSA, and CBC today. After reviewing my labs, I've noticed he only checks total-T, and not free...

too paraphrase from the move The Hangover.. your doctor is a ruh-tard

**zaggahamma** · 04-27-2010, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by pittbulldad

too paraphrase from the move The Hangover.. your doctor is a ruh-tard

funny movie but dont remember that

**aer_vlad** · 04-27-2010, 11:33 AM

^ LOL! Well, I won't argue with that. The guy is polish, so his sense of English and the "culture," for the lack of a better word, is apparently sub-par. He acts like the judicial system is out to get him. Maybe he's illegal. Hahaha...

My primary care physician certainly agreed that I should self inject. He's willing to write the script, no problem - very nice guy and very willing to help me out (offered to monitor me so I feel 100% comfortable etc.).

I'm obviously new to the medical, doctor scene - I've been to the doctor about once in my life for a ear infection lol - and have a few dumb questions: When "shopping" for a doctor (which I'm looking into), do you just call them up, ask them if they work with TRT patients? I dunno, how and what specifically do you find a "good" doctor?

Thanks for the help guys. Appreciate it.

**aer_vlad** · 04-27-2010, 11:41 AM

^ LOL! Well, I won't argue with that. The guy is polish, so his sense of English and the "culture," for the lack of a better word, is apparently sub-par. He acts like the judicial system is out to get him. Maybe he's illegal. Hahaha...

My primary care physician certainly agreed that I should self inject. He's willing to write the script, no problem - very nice guy and very willing to help me out (offered to monitor me so I feel 100% comfortable etc.).

I'm obviously new to the medical, doctor scene - I've been to the doctor about once in my life for a ear infection lol - and have a few dumb questions: When "shopping" for a doctor (which I'm looking into), do you just call them up, ask them if they work with TRT patients? I dunno, how and what specifically do you find a "good" doctor?

Thanks for the help guys. Appreciate it.

**zaggahamma** · 04-27-2010, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by aer_vlad

^ LOL! Well, I won't argue with that. The guy is polish, so his sense of English and the "culture," for the lack of a better word, is apparently sub-par. He acts like the judicial system is out to get him. Maybe he's illegal. Hahaha...

My primary care physician certainly agreed that I should self inject. He's willing to write the script, no problem - very nice guy and very willing to help me out (offered to monitor me so I feel 100% comfortable etc.).

I'm obviously new to the medical, doctor scene - I've been to the doctor about once in my life for a ear infection lol - and have a few dumb questions: When "shopping" for a doctor (which I'm looking into), do you just call them up, ask them if they work with TRT patients? I dunno, how and what specifically do you find a "good" doctor?

Thanks for the help guys. Appreciate it.

yes thats how you do it...why waste the time going into a doc office blind...when you go buy tires do you just pull into the first random tire shop...well even if you do...dont do it with doctors...stick with what you said