TRT and Lack of Sleep

**bowers32** · 05-03-2010, 08:33 AM

Many of you have probably seen the posts I had recently with some major headaches... at first I really thought it was the high doses of HCG that was causing it.

Then come to find out I had a sinus infection that the Dr thought was the cause... after a few days on anti-boitics, that was handled and lo and behold the headaches continued.

I finally got smart (a very rare occurance) an started keeping a daily log of everything I was taking, doses etc... and also things like quality of erections (very important), energy levels and also sleep.

I have never been one that got a solid 8 hours of sleep... but now I am finding that I am rarely gettng 4-5 hours of good sleep and thus waking up with that same headached every single morning.

So the good news is that the TRT protocol isn't the culprit, but lack of sleep seems to be. On the days I don't have such bad headaches, I notice that I lucked up and got some good sack time.

I had heard that sleep problems could be a side affect of TRT but didn't really see a lot of guyson here mention it as something they have struggled with.

Is there anyone else with this issue? Man I have tylenol pm, unisom and Benedryl.. nothing is really helping.

Any adivce?

I mean a this point the lack of sleep is overriding everything. I am going on my 5th week of TRT and don't feel one bit of difference at all. I may as well be shooting water in my ass each week. And I know it is because am waking up with these headaches each and every day from lack of sleep and it is overriding any benefit the TRT would be giving me in the energy and overall good feelings department.

As always, thanks to everyone here that are always spot on with good advice.

**Epic Ed** · 05-03-2010, 09:22 AM

Do you snore? Sleep apnea may be the cause of your headaches, if so. The combination of reduced oxygen to the brain and high blood pressure due to straining all night to breathe often result in one of the most telling symptoms of sleep apnea -- headaches when waking. I've had sleep apnea for several years, and it got considerably worse as I gained weight. I had a sleep study done a couple of years ago that confirmed I had severe sleep apnea and I've been using a CPAP ever since. It really was a life saver.

**bowers32** · 05-03-2010, 11:35 AM

No... according to my wife I don't snore that much... I mean I think there are times I do, but not that bad. I have had a problem with sleep for many years... but the TRT has seemingly made it much worse.

I forget the name of it, but my problem isn't falling asleep, it is not staying asleep... I can generally fall asleep but will wake up over and over through the night... with TRT I am finding the falling to sleep part of it is worse.

**Epic Ed** · 05-03-2010, 12:49 PM

Sounds like you could benefit from a sleep study. They are covered by most insurance policies and it's really no big deal having one done. They will be able to provide some extremely valuable insight as to what is going on while you sleep. Poor sleep, or lack of sleep is a contributing factor in the early demise of way too many people. Get it checked out.

**casberger** · 05-03-2010, 01:16 PM

I suffer from insomia. Not really sure if my TRT is the culprit but I rarely get 8+ hours of sleep. Maybe once a month if that. Normally I only get 4-5 hours of sleep each night. I have to pop ambien every night or I lay awake all night long.

**durak** · 05-03-2010, 01:49 PM

ok, so do you have sleep apnea?

You state that you do not have a problem staying asleep but you wake up over and over, I would call that staying asleep.

If you are not able to go through the various stages of sleep your body will suffer. Think about it for a second. Is the problem really:
1. going to sleep
2. staying asleep without waking throughout the night
3. waking and not going back to sleep?

**bowers32** · 05-03-2010, 03:04 PM

maybe I misspoke... before TRT I didn't have a problem falling asleep, but would wake up off and on all night.. so no continuous sleep.

Now since TRT, I am having a really hard time falling asleep and mixed with my previous issues, when I finally fall asleep, I always wake up over and over again.

So end up getting 2-4 hours a night at best

**durak** · 05-03-2010, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by bowers32

maybe I misspoke... before TRT I didn't have a problem falling asleep, but would wake up off and on all night.. so no continuous sleep.

Now since TRT, I am having a really hard time falling asleep and mixed with my previous issues, when I finally fall asleep, I always wake up over and over again.

So end up getting 2-4 hours a night at best

And the 2-4 hours is not quality sleep.

It seems you have two issues. The waking up over and over is a beast in itself. It can be caused by so many factors. You really should get checked for sleep apnea.

As for falling asleep. What is your schedule (eating, activity, blood pressure, etc) like from 5 hours before you try to sleep? Also when and how much exercise do you get?

**spicyer** · 05-03-2010, 09:38 PM

I'll just tell you what has worked for me, maybe something will make sense to you.

Meditation - slow controlled breathing, I count my breaths in and out, I try to get to 100 without any outside thoughts getting in, when I finally achieve this I feel more relaxed and sleep better.

I don't eat, workout or take any supplements within 2 hours of going to sleep.

I've tried melatonin and tryptophan, the results are 50/50 for 6 hours good sleep.

I use ativan occasionally to relax if really wound up.

If all else fails and I really have to sleep when travelling or important meetings I take ambien or lunesta, but I don't do it every night they could be habit forming.

Good Luck!

**durak** · 05-03-2010, 11:57 PM

Plz check your blood pressure before bed.

**forrest_and_trees** · 05-04-2010, 01:52 PM

Sorry for the hi-jack... post deleted, starting own thread.

**zaggahamma** · 05-04-2010, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by durak

Plz check your blood pressure before bed.

and?

**Vettester** · 05-05-2010, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

I'm 42 and I've been on TRT for 9 months. Previous to the treatment I've had sleep issues on and off for many years, however I usually managed to get a solid 5-6 hours a few nights a week and wake up feeling like I'd had I full night's rest. I haven't been an "8 hour" sleeper since my 20's which is when my Low-T issues began. YES- it is very likely I have sleep apnea. I haven't had the study, however I'm almost 100% certain I do. All the signs are there, I've heard about it from others who've [tried sleeping] around me and it runs in the family.

Previous to the TRT, I'd wake up every morning from pain. My whole body ached and my arms were the worse. The pain and stiffness would usually begin to fade as soon as I got out of bed and I'd feel somewhat normal in about 15-20 mins. After about a week on the TRT, the pain stopped! Hallelujah! As a result, my sleep improved. This lasted about a month or so. Then about 2-3 months into the TRT I began waking up continually throughout the night. The worst part is, I'd wake up and it felt as if I'd slept an entire evening; so I'd look at the clock and only 45 mins to a hour had passed!! I go through this all night long. Sleep for maybe 45 mins and wake thinking it's been all night. I actually feel like I could get out of bed and go. But I "force" myself back to sleep and start the cycle all over.

Falling asleep is never a problem, staying asleep is. So I talked to my Dr. who prescribed Lunesta. No change at all! Then I tried Ambien; same thing. No help at all!! Lately I've began sliding off the bed and I wake up sitting on the floor with my back against the bed without knowing how I got there. this happens about 3-5 times a night.

Any ideas guys? I really could use some help

Creating your own thread would be a good starting point.

**durak** · 05-05-2010, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

and?

Many people do not realize they have high blood pressure. If the BP is high or raising before bed, falling asleep can be difficult.

**bowers32** · 05-05-2010, 02:18 PM

Have checked blood pressure several nights now before going to bed, or at least trying to go to bed... numbers are very good... so BP isn't the issue.

At this point I am inclined to stop TRT...... the HCG at any level (currently at 250 x3 times a week) wipes me out the next day.... the test itself has caused a sleeping problem to get even worse... so I wake up the next day exhausted. So after 5 weeks now... not only do I not have one single positive affect... it is just the opposite... I am feeling worse now then when I started.

Diet is going very well..... workouts are hit and miss depending on how bad I feel that day (see above).

I don't blame the trt protocol.... it is just the way my body responds to it I guess. Oh and to top it off the last test shot my wife gave me was a bad one and now I have this huge red on my ass that is sore as hell....

Yea I am being a little bitch today...I may look into HGH or something else.. I still believe a 48 that it makes sense to do somehing (within reason) to help my efforts in the gym to get in better shape which the end result would be feeling better I hope.

**durak** · 05-05-2010, 02:33 PM

You will need to run a proper pct.

**flatscat** · 05-05-2010, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by bowers32

Have checked blood pressure several nights now before going to bed, or at least trying to go to bed... numbers are very good... so BP isn't the issue.

At this point I am inclined to stop TRT...... the HCG at any level (currently at 250 x3 times a week) wipes me out the next day.... the test itself has caused a sleeping problem to get even worse... so I wake up the next day exhausted. So after 5 weeks now... not only do I not have one single positive affect... it is just the opposite... I am feeling worse now then when I started.

Diet is going very well..... workouts are hit and miss depending on how bad I feel that day (see above).

I don't blame the trt protocol.... it is just the way my body responds to it I guess. Oh and to top it off the last test shot my wife gave me was a bad one and now I have this huge red on my ass that is sore as hell....

Yea I am being a little bitch today...I may look into HGH or something else.. I still believe a 48 that it makes sense to do somehing (within reason) to help my efforts in the gym to get in better shape which the end result would be feeling better I hope.

Bro, something else is going on - your trt may be making it worse, but it is not the problem. Get a sleep study done. If you really needed to be on trt, then it would be disapointing to see you get off of it because of another problem. Your life, your choice, my two cents. Good luck which ever way you go.

Flats

**Epic Ed** · 05-05-2010, 08:26 PM

Sounds like a sleep study and blood work should be a priority. Sleep study will identify any sleep disorder issues and the blood work will figure out the other pieces of the puzzle.

Sumpthin ain't right.

**zaggahamma** · 05-05-2010, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by durak

Many people do not realize they have high blood pressure. If the BP is high or raising before bed, falling asleep can be difficult.

i thought u might be hinting at that but wanted to clarify maybe you thought it was common knowledge...hope not....

either way...think i'll keep an eye on my bp cuz good sleep is pretty rare

**bowers32** · 05-06-2010, 08:17 AM

Have had lab tests done twice in the last six months and another scheduled in 20 days so I keep a keen eye on my levels....

had a long talk with the Doc yesterday... he was very disappointed but said he does have two other patients that are having the exact same issues. Said it doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen.

For me it is taking an issue I have had for many years and yes I had a sleep study done about 2 years ago... nothing came out of it. All my life I have been one that just wouldn't fall to sleep... but when I did I was good to go. Now that I am older, I fall asleep much easier, but will not stay asleep and will always wake up multiple times throughout the night.

The TRT is making this situation worse.... now it is almost impossible to fall asleep and when I do, I am up in a few hours an bounce around like that all night. I have tried every type of supplement and prescription drug you can think of.

I have kept a very detailed log over the past 30 days and documented every single thing I have taken (test, HCG , anti e, supplements, etc..) to try and pinpoint the cause. At one point I stopped everything but the test and it was right there. Wake up every single day with a headache that lasts all day due to lack of sleep.

I feel confident I have done everything possible (labs, BP, diet, supplements, prescrib drugs etc) to try and help the situation.

I will run HCG for a little longer just to make sure my natural system is up and running good before I drop it.

Would be intersted in trying HGH, which I hear is great for sleep, but seems that taking HGH without test running at the same time is a waste, so not sure about that.

Thanks to all for your input and advice. Even when I stop trt, I will continue to come to this board, as I think it is simply the greatest place to learn more about all that we face as guys who are getting older and not going out without a fight..... lol

**flybynight** · 05-06-2010, 12:07 PM

I feel your pain. For five years I've only been able to sleep 2 or 3 hours at a time. Sleep apnea, moderate... and I hated the machine. No matter what my fitness level or supplement (HGH, HCG , TRT), it remains a problem. I just don't have your headaches, but I'm always tired. My goal now is to lose 15 pounds and see where that takes me... because the only time I can remember being able to sleep was when I was a) smoking and b) under 190 pounds.

I'm never smoking again, so weight loss it is.

I sympathize with you... really makes you realize the limits of modern medicine. They just shrug at me now... take more ambien and trazodone they say. I'm done with that route and feeling like a zombie.

PS... HGH for sleep is overrated... at least for those of us with some mysterious sleep disorder. Maybe normal people sleep even better with HGH... but for me, nada... 3 years of it hasn't helped.

**bowers32** · 05-07-2010, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by flybynight

I feel your pain. For five years I've only been able to sleep 2 or 3 hours at a time. Sleep apnea, moderate... and I hated the machine. No matter what my fitness level or supplement (HGH, HCG , TRT), it remains a problem. I just don't have your headaches, but I'm always tired. My goal now is to lose 15 pounds and see where that takes me... because the only time I can remember being able to sleep was when I was a) smoking and b) under 190 pounds.

I'm never smoking again, so weight loss it is.

I sympathize with you... really makes you realize the limits of modern medicine. They just shrug at me now... take more ambien and trazodone they say. I'm done with that route and feeling like a zombie.

PS... HGH for sleep is overrated... at least for those of us with some mysterious sleep disorder. Maybe normal people sleep even better with HGH... but for me, nada... 3 years of it hasn't helped.

Wow... I was really hoping that HGH might would help...I really don't want to top TRT and thought by adding HGH that maybe it would counter he sleeping problem of TRT.

You are right... there is little that is worse than eating right, workign out hard, taking supplements, doing the TRT and yet get up every single day and just be flat out worn out all day with headaches.

I am not going to give up.... I am going to a new doctor to see if he has any advice and will probably go back to the sleep clinic.... I need to try and find a solution to this.

**forrest_and_trees** · 05-07-2010, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by bowers32

You are right... there is little that is worse than eating right, workign out hard, taking supplements, doing the TRT and yet get up every single day and just be flat out worn out all day with headaches.

You had mentioned the headaches before, where do they occur, on the back of your head and neck?

**bowers32** · 05-08-2010, 09:42 AM

headache is always in the front/forehead and always with tired achy eyes....

**forrest_and_trees** · 05-08-2010, 11:13 AM

That rules out what I had in mind. Would you say you've been under considerably more stress than usual?

**zaggahamma** · 05-08-2010, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

That rules out what I had in mind. Would you say you've been under considerably more stress than usual?

what would you think it could be if it was in the back head/neck?

**forrest_and_trees** · 05-08-2010, 12:43 PM

I often tend to passout at the computer during the day due to the insomnia and exhaustion. On occasion, my head 'bobs' forward unknowingly. This tends to give me a "mini-whiplash" if you will. I then find I have headaches and stiffness in the back of my head for a few days. Eventually it goes away though. Even so, I've found myself repeating the actions sometimes several days in a row which only aggravates matter even more. I didn't realize all this at first and it took me a while to figure out why I was having the headaches. I just thought it's possible you may be suffering from something similar.

**zaggahamma** · 05-08-2010, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

I often tend to passout at the computer during the day due to the insomnia and exhaustion. On occasion, my head 'bobs' forward unknowingly. This tends to give me a "mini-whiplash" if you will. I then find I have headaches and stiffness in the back of my head for a few days. Eventually it goes away though. Even so, I've found myself repeating the actions sometimes several days in a row which only aggravates matter even more. I didn't realize all this at first and it took me a while to figure out why I was having the headaches. I just thought it's possible you may be suffering from something similar.

not me...i was just curious at what you were thinkging...but holy shit bro..thats sounds horrible

**bowers32** · 05-09-2010, 07:37 AM

no mine isn't anything like that.... it simply is not sleeping at night.. .waking up with that headache waiting on me and will be there ALL DAY long.

I know it is due to the sleep because on nights when I am able to actually get some sleep the headache isn't there. For instance I haven't done test for a week... took a HCG shot last night, which will knock you out a bit, and I slept good and what do you know... no headaches....

The headaches aren't severe generally.... they are just there all day long and normally nothing OTC will make them go away... so I live with it everyday.

I am going to stop TRT and see if I can get it under control and then try TRT one more time and see if maybe it is a series of other events that are causing it.

**PPC** · 05-09-2010, 08:13 AM

Have you had your cortisol levels checked via a 4x a day saliva test?

It is possible you may have high levels of cortisol at night. This often results in the sleep disturbances you are talking about. Cortisol should be at the top of the range in the morning and near the bottom at night for a normal sleeping rythm.

It seems you have tried a lot of things so just dismiss this advice if it is simply repeat. Phosphatidyl Sirene is a supplement that can be taken at night to reduce elevated cortisol if that is part of your problem. But you'd need to check levels first and this requires a lot of spitting into vials.

If you levels are low in the morning, trialing a dose of 20-30 mg of cortef may do wonders.

The addition of GH while cortisol levels are off can actually make these issues worse. GH should be added once cortisol is nicely in range.

Taking GH shots at night would be better than morning shots in your case as GH lowers cortisol, part of the reason it is a sleep aid.

This advice is not from my own experience as my own cortisol levels are fine but from reading several books on the subject.