TRT – please critique

[dabigcheese]

Background:

I am 33, 194 lbs, 15 pc bodyfat, seven years training experience. Have done a few cycles before. Back in late 07 (when I was 31), my libido was absolutely crazy. At the end of that year I did a short test cycle and remember that I had never been that horny (even as a teenager) - and I only ran test at 400 mgs/week for four weeks. I needed to have sex several times a day. I always finished my cycles with decent PCT which kept my libido in good shape.

Then in 08, I changed jobs and stopped working out – I had no time and so had to cut back on that and my diet. Initially libido was ok. But I lost a lot of muscle and stress levels increased. My libido went to ZERO. I was dating a stunning lovely girl but could not get a hard-on. My sexual feelings were close to zero. She was very supportive of me (we’re still together believe it or not). But I felt totally distressed and shit. In 09, I started using Test E to jack-up my sex drive. Initially it worked, but soon it crashed again. I had never experienced that with test before. I had run cycles 10 weeks long with test when I was in my 20s and had never seen my libido disappear like that. I got extremely worried. So in order to “save” my libido, I jacked up the Test E from 200mgs/week to 300 and then 400. At 500, my libido came roaring back and then disappeared again. I jacked it to 600 and it came back and then disappeared again. I realised something was badly wrong. So I started taking some Adex. The libido came roaring back like nobody’s business. But I overdid the Adex and it caused me headaches (sometime severe).

I stopped the cycle altogether and relaxed for 6 weeks. I then went to see an andrologist in London. She ran some tests and found my results (including test) in the normal range. I was not convinced. My feeling was that the test was going to drop a lot more. I then went through a phase when I couldn’t get back on TRT for a variety of reasons. I also thought that hitting the gym would fix the libido issues and get me back up and running again. I got back in the gym and regained almost all my lost muscle (20 lbs) without using juice. But the libido issues did not go away.

I then ran some tests again – this time in May/June this year.

The results were as follows:

FSH 3.1 IU/L (normal 1.5 – 12.4)
Free Testosterone – 9.94 pg/ml (normal 8.8 – 27.0)
17-Beta Oestradiol 146 pmol/l (normal 44-156)
Progesterone 3.1 nmol/l (normal 0.7 – 4.3)
Prolactin 319 mIU/L (normal 86-324)
SHBG 15 nmol/L (normal 11 – 52)
Total Testosterone 9.2 nmol/L (normal 7.6 – 31.4)

As these results show, the test and free test are quite low within the normal range and Oestradiol quite high. On that basis, I started TRT 2 weeks ago. Im not working out as I don't feel any motivation at all.

I started with 250 mgs/week of Test E and 100 mgs of Proviron per day. My reason for using Proviron was to try to lower the Estrogen quickly without wrecking havoc with my lipid profiles the way Adex tends to do. At Day 17 these are the results:

My libido is in the toilet. Ive had some “whiff” of a return of the raging libido I had some years ago. There have been days when I have started feeling the libido coming back but it then crashes and goes away completely. Right now my libido is shit. I don’t think I’d get an erection even if Eva Mendes stripped in front of me right now.

I may have overdone the Proviron but Im not sure. I got some slight headaches a few times which I experienced when my estrogen levels were dropping due to Adex last year. But 15 days sounds too short a period on 100 mgs/day.

I wake up with morning wood but feel no desire for sex at all. Some ideas here would be very helpful. Should I get bloods done now or should I hang in there for another 2-3 weeks? Should I use medication to reduce my prolactin or is that a non-issue?

Although I hate this zero libido, looking at it rationally and reading many posts here, I feel confident that I will eventually fix the problem. But there would be some trial and error involved.

Would be grateful for input from the pros here. I know there are a lot of guys on HRT and many have had great success. I want to be one of those.

Thanks guys.

[ReBilly]

It's hard to not self medicate, or to wait for things to take course, but after a few months of tweaking my TRT I finally feel back on track and have a sex drive again.

Estrogen for me is a sex drive killer. I could have all the test in the world but when my estrogen is too high its all for naught. Maybe your high E has something to do with your lack of drive?

Taking a SERM or something to try and fix it is also a bad idea if your main concern is libido. I tried every shortcut to try and get mine back, and I had to follow the protocol to its entirety to finally feel OK again. Weekly test shot, a 250 shot of HCG on each of the 2 days prior, and the thing that fixed me... Arimidex . .25 twice a week, within 2 weeks I started getting revved up again. Any time I try to mess with this to fix it, I actually mess it up.

Sorry you have to go through this man, I know what its like to have a hot woman right there and you don't even want it... for me its demasculating. Glad your girl is understanding at least

[dabigcheese]

Thanks for the input. Really appreciate it.

I would run arimidex but am not doing it for fear that it would screw up my lipid profile. Is there anything you do to keep your lipids in the normal range when on arimidex?

How much test are you running per week?

[PPC]

Thanks for the input. Really appreciate it.

I would run arimidex but am not doing it for fear that it would screw up my lipid profile. Is there anything you do to keep your lipids in the normal range when on arimidex?

How much test are you running per week?

Arimidex in doses used for TRT should not screw up your lipids but simply allow your T to be 'felt' and do it's job. Lipids can get messed with when estrogen is reduced to next to nothing ie; women who use arimidex after breast cancer in doses of 1-2 mg per day. keeping your estradiol level between 20-30 should not negatively affect lipids.

If you are an over responder to arimidex you will need to use about 1/4 the dose normally prescribed. So if that is commonly.25mg eod to start, you'll only need about .6mg. But I imagine your dose of arimidex may just have initially been too high.

Proviron cannot take the place on an AI. It has it's merits and should aid in sexual function but if you have a real E2 problem (which your labs show quite evidently) then you'll need to run an AI also.

[dabigcheese]

Thanks again. Very useful points.

Any thoughts on the use of Aromasin instead of Arimidex ? Aromasin is said to have fewer of the undesirable sides of Arimidex.

[Vettester]

Agree with PPC. You should look at getting on a smaller dose, steady regiment.

Reading your post, it looks kind of like you've pushed it to the max every time you've had the chance, or call it "jacked it". Just saying ... More isn't always better, and the adversities you're experiencing could be from the pushing of the envelope, per se.

I'd personally look at dropping the proviron and look at a small dose of AI as mentioned by PPC. Give this a little time to balance out, it shouldn't come crashing back down all at once either.

One thing that might compliment your program and libido would be the addition of some HCG . Didn't see any LH numbers there, but I suspect it's low and your testes have probably taken a beating during your cycles. The stuff is amazing and I have that 'burst' sensation again like it was when I was 19!

Also, maybe talk to the doc about some caber for the prolactin. That's another variable that could be hindering you. Not only will the cabergoline help with the prolactin, but it might give you some stimulation like that of nothing you ever dreamed possible!

[dabigcheese]

Thanks. Great points again.

I should have had LH tested as well. You're absolutely right.

I did try cabergoline on an experimental basis three years ago. I found it impossible to sleep a wink at night. I dropped it after that. How much caber do you run every week?

I am definitely going to start with arimidex as soon as possible. I will drop the Proviron .

I am going to start HCG or Tongkat Ali. I've never used HCG but Tongkat Ali has a similar effect on me. Ive seen my nuts gets to bursting points after a couple of doses.

Are you really able to feel the way you did at 19? That must be really amazing. I had given up all hope that I could ever feel that way again.

[Vettester]

I only did the Caber for about 3 weeks if even that, I think it was back in March or April. I just took 0.5mg twice a week. It had a crazy sensation on the nerve receptors right before and during climax. Never experienced any trouble with sleeping or any other sides.

I'm not familiar with Tongkat Ali. I'll look it up and do some research. HCG mimics LH, so the testes start acting the way they should as if they were receiving plenty of that hormone.

I'm not exaggerating at all about the ability to produce like 19. Before HCG, I would get a decent sensation, but it was always just a little seminal fluid. Basically just one pass that came limping out. Now it's like full throttle in my Vette! 5 to 6 passes, and sometimes I can get that 1st one out there 2 to 3 feet! My stamina is a whole lot better than 19, but I can't recover as fast as I did back then. I once did 8x in 12 hours when I was 19 ... At 43 I don't stand a chance! But I'm sure at 19 I'd rather be driving a supercharged Vette after the party is over!

[ReBilly]

Thanks for the input. Really appreciate it.

I would run arimidex but am not doing it for fear that it would screw up my lipid profile. Is there anything you do to keep your lipids in the normal range when on arimidex?

How much test are you running per week?

The dose I'm on is so low that I really doubt it's gonna mess up my lipid profile. I just helps me feel the test, even when I'm in normal range (700-900) with the high end of the normal range of free test.

My shot was 180, that had me at 997 total test, free at 25, but my estradiol was at 49 and I had no drive. So we reduced the test shot to 160 and added the AI.

Honestly part of me wants to keep my shot at 180 but the fact of the matter is, too much test only makes me feel good til it catches up with me. It was hard for me to reduce my shot, it's like, I still want more, but fact is, you're usually best off following the guidelines of top 3rd of range for test and free test, and bottom 3rd range for estrogen. Thats the sweet spot were most men feel optimized, but normal.

Lots of test can make you a superman, but you can't stay that way and expect no problems or side effects, especially if you do it long term.

[stevey_6t9]

prolactin is the biggest sex drive killer of them all and yours is very high, have you tried other prolactin inhibitors such as prami or bromo?

dont bother with the tongkat ali, your tests levels will initially rise then crash again.

[dabigcheese]

Thanks. Ive been thinking the same thing for some time.

I only tried Dostinex some years ago and found it hard to sleep at night. I will do some research on Prami and bromo as well. Are there any nasty sides that I should be wary of for either drug?

I will switch to HCG for the purposes of HRT.

[ReBilly]

prolactin is the biggest sex drive killer of them all and yours is very high, have you tried other prolactin inhibitors such as prami or bromo?

dont bother with the tongkat ali, your tests levels will initially rise then crash again.

This is new to me, so is high estrogen not really the problem so much as the prolactin it makes you produce?

[dabigcheese]

I think both are a problem and also high estrogen levels can cause prolactin levels to rise - which then further reduces sex drive. It makes sense that prolactin would kill sex drive since it induces a feeling of being fully satiated in the body (this is the hormone that is released immediately after an orgasm which causes the body to take a fair amount of time until it can have another one).

However, I did try Dostinex three years ago and it did nothing for me other than making it impossible to sleep. I don't remember the dosages I ran. I have ordered this stuff again and will start with a lose dose with the goal of gently reducing prolactin levels.

Once I have the HCG , Dostinex and the Aromasin (all of which I have ordered), I will post a log of my experiences with all three in conjunction with test.