Thread: Androgel for Women???
08-03-2010, 04:46 PM #1New Member
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- Jul 2010
Androgel for Women???
Hello everyone. I live in Queretaro, MX. Two years ago I had a complete hysterectomy. I would like trt to restore my sex drive. I can purchase many things here without a prescription. I'm not sure how to start. I certainly don't know how much to take, but it seems like the gel would be the way to go. Currently, my husband injects me with Binodian once a month (made by Bayer). It's an estrogen replacement. I simply want my sex drive to return. I would appreciate any information.
Hello, I was out of town for a couple of days. Yes, I should have supplied more information.
I am three months away from being 48 years old. I had a hysterectomy May of 2008 due to endometriosis and fibroids and all that goes with it. The head of the Menopausal Clinic at Baptist Hospital in Nashville, TN believed that I shouldn't move to MX without first having the surgery.
I immediately started taking hormones personally compounded for me. The ration and application: E2/P4/t/DHEA 1.5/80/1/25 ----1/2 ML topically twice daily.
My blood work in December ’09 was:
Estradiol 25.1 pg/mL F
Follicular phase 12.5 - 166.0
Ovulation phase 85.8 - 498.0
Luteal phase 43.8 - 211.0
Postmenopausal <6.0 - 54.7
Progesterone 4.7 ng/mL
Testosterone ,Free and Total
Testosterone, Serum 63 ng/dL 6-82 F
Free Testosterone(Direct) 2.2 pg/mL 0.0-2.2
My GP has a very holistic slant. He also believes, in relation to hormones and menopause, that the "least amount of hormones for the least amount of time" is the most sound treatment. For the first nine months or so this combo worked well. I cannot find a compounded RX near me, so I had to go back to the States more frequently than I wanted. I found an endocrinologist here that checked my blood levels. He thought they were way too low and insisted that I do not need progesterone. My doctor in the States thought they were perfect. Now I am injected with Binodian once every 28 days. It's basically estrogen and testosterone. After a couple of months my endo here did blood work and thought my levels were where they should be. I feel okay, but as I expressed in my previous post I want to feel better. I'll be in the States in October and my GP will freak out when he realizes I've dumped the compounded hormones, that I am taking Binodian, and considering (or by then taking) more testosterone. I'll do blood work there too.
One more thing, I have osteopenia. I also had a right hip replacement in 2003 due to a many years prior (small fracture that caused right hip to become avascular) while teaching my daughters to roller skate.
I have enjoyed being physically fit most of my life. Watching my muscles lose their firmness and my sex drive fall has been like losing part of my identity. I know part of this is hormonal, but part of it is that my exercise program is forced and sporadic due to all of the changes.
My regular GP in TN will want me to go back to the compound. I'm not sure what to do. There are SO many opinions. No one seems to agree on how long I should continue HT after my hysterectomy. I get a different answer every time I ask doctors or anyone.
I dislike self-medicating, but want to feel better and want to take advantage of my stay in MX. I will continue to live here from 6-24 months longer.
Thank you for all of your information and your kindness.
The Binodian has 200.00mg of Enantato de pasTERONA (testosterone) and 4.00mg of Estradiol.
I just purchased a pack of Androgel . I know the 5 gram dose per day is way too much for me. I read that 2.5 per week is about right for a woman. So, maybe half a 5 g per week given MWF would be right. Can anyone help?
08-03-2010, 05:11 PM #2
Well, it's clear you know test on a woman is a double edged sword. on the one hand it increases libido, on the other hand, it can cause certain masculinizing effects that you should avoid. I'm not thrilled about the every other day aspect, since a very uneven dose rate. Although I think the 2.5gms/week is the max dose rate (verified at multiple websites), I would still try to apply daily. That would put you at under 0.4gms/day. You may have to experiment and maybe get a scale. Since I haven't tried to scale gel before, this could be tricky and you will have to play around with it. Or you can scale the 2.5grams and just know that has to last for 7 days. But you should do it daily.
08-03-2010, 07:48 PM #3Banned
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- Aug 2009
I'm sure PPC will chime in pretty soon. She is quite knowledgeable with the female endocrine system. In fact, she's quite knowledgeable with everyone's endocrine system. Your situation could be a little sensitive, I'd definitely keep an eye out for anything PPC can offer.
08-03-2010, 07:51 PM #4
I agree-----PPC will help you
08-03-2010, 08:56 PM #5New Member
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- Jul 2010
Thanks! I hope PPC does weigh in. I could just measure the Adrogel with a syringe.
How many grams in 1 milliliter? The answer is 1.
We assume you are converting between gram [water] and milliliter.
So, 2.5 grams should be 2.5 ml.
I could just start off with .2 ml per day....Thoughts?
I'm sorry to be such a newbie!
08-03-2010, 09:24 PM #6
When you do figure out your correct testosterone dosage, I suggest DAILY ( for women ) which is what you seem to want to do now.... as opposed to injections every 28 days--this is a good start
and keep asking---this is a great group and you will get help!
Last edited by SlimmerMe; 08-03-2010 at 09:28 PM. Reason: typo
08-03-2010, 09:42 PM #7Banned
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- Aug 2009
I would think that trying to administer AndroGel for a woman would be extremely complicated. Working with a long ester like cypionate (in small amounts) would probably be more consistent and stable than trying figure out if the proper amount of gel is being applied, or even absorbed for that matter.
08-03-2010, 11:39 PM #8Super Knowledgeable ~ Female Member
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- Mar 2010
There is not a lot of info on Binodian but what I have found indicates that it is estradiol valerate combined with DHEA. You say testosterone , maybe it has changed but Bayer calls it DHEA or Prasterone. I do not speak spanish but are you sure it is Testosterone over Dehydroepiandrosterone?
If it is Dhea, that is not neccessarily converting to T in your body. One hopes that it will, since in females it often has an androgenic effect but you cannot rely on that down stream process.
That issue along with only 4 mg per month of estradiol valerate make me understand your state of 'not feelin great.' While estradiol valerate does convert to natural estrogen in your body, it involves some processes to get there. Estradiol hemi hydrate is completely bio identical and what we should seek as part of our HRT. You have been using 4 mg per month, I see indications for estradiol valerate injections to treat menopasue symptoms at 10 -20 mg per month. I def think you are tanked in E and T.
E is every bit as important to restore libido in a woman as T is. If you start using T without adequate E levels, irritability, acne, and other slightly masculizing traits can show up. But I doubt you'll grow a beard LOL. E must be the first layer. That is your essence as a woman. It makes you more in tune with your body, allows you to like yourself more and feel more 'female'. This is important for libido. T is the hormone of lust, but female libido is more complicated than just driving that up. Also, surprisingly, E aids in female muscle tone and prevents muscle atrophy, so you'll want to restore that adequately first and foremost. Then you can layer in T.
Docs that say you don't need progesterone since you don't have a uterus, don't understand that you have progesterone receptors in your breasts and P goes a long way to help prevent breast cancer. You probably don't need 75mg a day though. Docs that say use hormones for only the shortest time possible and at the smallest amounts don't seem to want to think about the decline your body will sink into once hormones are taken away again. Hormones protect us in physiological doses. Without ovary function you will constantly lose their benefits and not be suddenly cured after 18 months. (end of rant)
Your initial blood work showed E levels very low around 25. Need to seek 100. Your p was high in correlation to your E but would be close to perfect if you had more E.
Indications you are still low on E:
Dry eyes and vagina?
Loss of elasticity in skin - more wrinkling?
Deflated looking breasts?
Androgel - math is not my strong suit. Did you see this in your research? It is by Dr Louranne Brizendine, director of Women's Mood and Hormone clinic:
"Androgel, a topical testosterone approved for men.....start with 0.35 mg daily or one seventh of the 2.5-mg packet (ask the pharmacist to place this amount in a syringe). Instruct the patient to apply the gel to hairless skin, such as inside the forearm. Effects last about 24 hours, and you can measure serum levels accurately after 14 days. "
I don't know how this will pan out in reality since you'll only be applying such a small amount and we know only 10% is absorbed transdermally. I have a friend who is much more knowledgable about such things than I. Will ask him about this and get back to you.
We know T injections will provide a woman's needs at roughly 10mg per week according to hormone expert Dr Theirry hertoghe. On my insulin syring I inject 2 cc on Tuesdays and Fridays to = 8 mg per week. 10 mg was too much as I also swallow 10mg dhea per day. T cyp I assume would be cheaper than androgel even in Mexico?
Let us know if we can help in any other ways. You are from the same area as I live in.
Last edited by PPC; 08-04-2010 at 08:03 AM.
08-04-2010, 10:05 AM #9
3 questions for PPC and hopefully helps MJH too--I am not trying to hyjack:
do you think 4 mgs compounded test is too much ED?
why 2x's per week instead of ED?
do you think 35mgs of DHEA is too much ED?
I know we are all different but..since I started this 8 months ago, I am willing to tweak
08-04-2010, 10:48 AM #10Super Knowledgeable ~ Female Member
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- Mar 2010
Naturally athletic women, atheletes, and those naturally inclined to sports or dance may have had a much higher level of T when young (usually good muscle tone and less breast tissue) as opposed to an more 'estrogen' type like me - more curvy/ less natural muscle tone.
If you are using 4mg T cream a day, do you know where your current levels are? If you are naturally a more 'T' body type, you might feel fantastic from 70-100. Remember you are only absorbing 10% of your transdermal. Your dose may not be too high at all for you.
DHEA on the other hand at 35mg is a high dose for a woman. Most cannot tolerate more than 15-20 mg per day without expressing androgenic type side effects. At more than 10 mg per day I develop acne on my chin. I have a friend who gets acne at anything over 5 mg per day. But as you say, we are all so different. Have you tested DHEA- S? That will give you a good indication whether too high or low.
To answer your question, I do T shots 2x a week because T cyp has a long half life and it is not neccessary to inject every day. I would use transdermal T every day if the cream were part of my protocol right now.
08-04-2010, 11:02 AM #11
just got the books yesterday and started reading and love the way he writes too! as far as body types I guess I am both: I was a thin athletic child but very curvy athletic adult--- with sports and dance---so---now I am more confused---I need to start my own thread so as to not disrupt MJH
08-04-2010, 07:26 PM #12Super Knowledgeable ~ Female Member
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- Mar 2010
Certainly, you could start your own thread and we could discuss topics you have in mind. I find the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, so it's a never ending process.
I have a sister built like you describe yourself. While most female body types lean one way or the other, some very lucky females get great curves and also have good muscle tone. This just means they likely had natural, above average levels of T and E.
The sister I mentioned is big breasted but a natural athelete. Lucky her (and you.) You'll very occasionally see a curvy gymnist or ice skater when watching the Olympics for example but mostly they are compact and muscular.
I am in no way a natural athelete but have an hour glass type figure and have to fight for every bit of muscle tone I get. My other sister can build muscle at the drop of a hat. Complete T type, not curvy, complains about lack of a definite waistline, darker body hair, incredible endurance. Her and I have done the same workout programs and she will finish with rippling muscles and I will maybe have a little more tone, not fair.
I have never really enjoyed exercizing but of course did it for health's sake. Since starting T replacement, I have noticed a greater ability to exercise. Can do 30 male style push ups now. Yay me!
Last edited by PPC; 08-04-2010 at 10:15 PM.
08-04-2010, 10:29 PM #13
thanks for assuming I have good muscle tone! this makes me feel good just thinking this is true. I need to take off pounds..so then you can see the muscle! I'm starting to feel like an amazon to tell you the truth----not feeling smaller but bigger----so this is why I want to start a thread... but need to find my notes which are around somewhere---
by the way---I have high t---and LOW E
Last edited by SlimmerMe; 08-04-2010 at 10:40 PM. Reason: added more
08-04-2010, 10:45 PM #14
for MJH: as far as your energy (which could effect your libido)---have you really checked your thyroid thoroughly? with a blood panel? some docs think "normal" is okay yet some docs don't take normal for an answer---just curious---
08-10-2010, 10:24 AM #15New Member
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- Jul 2010
Thanks all. It's all so confusing, or is that the low E? LOL
Estradiol hemi hydrate is completely bio identical and what we should seek as part of our HRT. You have been using 4 mg per month, I see indications for estradiol valerate injections to treat menopasue symptoms at 10 -20 mg per month. I'll have to explore how EHH can be purchased in Mexico. I'm nervous about self medicating, but am going to try anyway. I'm not sure how to pair the T and the E. I'm not even sure if they come together here. What should I do about the P? How much of each would you recommend if I apply daily? Perhaps their is an injection I could with all three here. I just need to investigate. If any knows of one please let me know. Even if it's sold in the States, I could find probably find it here.
SlimmerMe, I do have hypothyroidism and my numbers are good there.
I'm sorry I'm slow to reply. My husband was in a car accident here in MX. Someone rear ended him, but we're thankful they had insurance. He'll be fine.
Still sifting through all of this info. I don't have the books here that I know I should read. I appreciate all the help. It's all welcome.
08-10-2010, 05:03 PM #16Super Knowledgeable ~ Female Member
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- Mar 2010
I do not know if you can get compounded creams where you are. I mentioned hemi hydrate because that is readily available as a tablet. But you would have to take it buccally (between the front teeth and the front gum held for 15-20 m) or vaginally (just push segments of the tab into the vagina twice daily) but in smaller doses than oral. Blood testing would be important, these methods are very successful at raising E....don't want to go way high.
Oral E raises SHBG too much and causes E breakdown in the body to be heavily estrone dominated. You don't want that.
People use these E tablets ('estrace' or it's generic ) off label like this to create a more natural effect in the body. It is an absolutely cheap way to supply E to the body. I'd bet pharmacies there carry these tabs. If you did it this way you would use only 1/4 of the oral dose.
But...another way would be to use an E gel (just estradiol), if Bi-est compounded formualtions are not available there....2 applications of the E gel a day would be the key, you'd probably need a full strength gel. Some women don't absorb well with transdermals though, especially those with thyroid issues. You'd still need to add estriol in some form, if you use the tabs or the E gel because estriol is important for reasons already mentioned. Estriol tabs are available, you could place 1-2 mg tabs in your vagina a couple of times a week for it's protective benefits (very absorbable there) or see what estriol creams they have there in MX...best to get a cream with 2-3 mg per ml. Remember you always want to dose Estriol (E3) higher than estradiol (E2).
I don't know about E injections yet. It is better to do hormones individually so one can tweak each one according to Blood levels rather than clump them together. I want to look into E injections at some point in the fututre because absorbtion would not be an issue.
E Patches are an option like climara or vivelle dot (both bio identical,) but I found they fell off all the time and did not deliver enough estrogen for my needs. Some women love them.
Since you don't have a uterus, you may be fine with just an OTC 2-3% progesterone cream, 20mg is the usual dose per pump. Apply to breasts, wrists and alternate between thin skinned and fatty areas so you can have some stored while some goes quicky into the blood stream.
Have you tried the androgel yet? Can you get T cypionate there?
Last edited by PPC; 08-11-2010 at 08:28 AM.
01-30-2011, 08:07 PM #17
01-30-2011, 08:44 PM #18
01-31-2011, 02:48 PM #19
Looks like the spam was taken down. Ironically, I wouldn't have known about it except you both quoted the long spam in your posts.
I am actually glad this thread came back to life. I was talking about this subject with my wife over the weekend.
02-01-2011, 01:36 PM #20New Member
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- Apr 2010
My wife has no problem with a low libido, but on one ocassion just took one swipe of Androgel on a whim. Her libido went through the roof for a few days but she also was extremely angry. For the first (and only) time in her life, she kicked a hole in the wall over some minor matter. She hated how it made her feel and would never use it again.
02-01-2011, 07:47 PM #21
^^^ yep.....a little swipe will do it!
02-03-2011, 10:31 AM #22Member
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- Jun 2010
Androgel per week for females who needed supplementation. That would be 2 pumps from the pump container, but spread out over a week. I don't think the Androgel pump dispenser does partial pumps well (or at all), so metering the dose would be a bit of a pain. Maybe fill a syringe with pumps, count pumps relative to gradations on the syringe and divide into appropriate dosage??? Well, anyway, my wife isn't much into experimentation of this type, but thought I'd throw the information out there for the group.
12-28-2012, 01:13 PM #23New Member
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- Dec 2012
Hi, I'm new to this forum and have questions! I am 49 and need advice on Androgel to increase libido. I have always been very athletic and worked out with weights, swim, and yoga. About 5 years ago , I contracted a lung disease (heavy metal... Beryllium) from a job I had worked for 24 years. It has affected my immune system and I now have fibromyalgia. I have had a total hysterectomy and take Estrogen Methyltestos F.S. Tab; however I have no sex drive. It is hard on my marriage. I still have good muscle tone and will be back in the gym soon. I also have low thyroid and am taking 1/2 of 15 mg Synthyroid. I need advice on how to start Androgel. My husband has it and says it is safe to rub a small amount on ankles. I'm not sure how much??? Help
12-29-2012, 10:56 AM #24
Welcome Tatiana! Sounds like you are taking charge and this is great to hear. If I were you I would start a complete new thread and ask this question separate of this thread.
The only concern I have with taking a bit of Androgel and rubbing on is that you will not have any idea exactly how much you are rubbing on for monitoring purposes. Sounds fun to be quite honest and easy since he already has it but keep in mind a real real small amount goes a far way on us. Plus for your libido estrogen helps too. Have you done a full hormone panel lately?
Also there is a stickie I will post up for you to read. Lots of great info while waiting for more input.
12-29-2012, 10:58 AM #25
12-29-2012, 12:53 PM #26
Thread NOT outdated. NOT at all. A great bump by the way. And comments in thread are brilliant especially by PPC.
PPC curious why you inject 2x a week with the depo instead of 1x? i am going back on low dose of Enthante and been doing 1x a week.. maybe i am missing something? have you had any issues with increased RBC and or decreased HDL? thanks!
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