Hypogonadism

**CraigWatts** · 11-01-2010, 03:23 AM

Hi folks -

Few questions. First off, I've read that "those with hypogonadism" as a disorder - diagnosed - and fitting within that demographic who have that "condition" ... "will benefit from" ... medications that stimulate natural T production and LH production.

Does it stand to follow that if someone were to take such a medication (like Omnifen) for six weeks, and were to see an increase in natural T levels, that this also means they *have* hypogonadism? Or is it moreso a scenario where anyone who takes the stuff will probably see increased T levels?

Second question: I tried omnifen for six weeks as a trial. I only did 25mg daily, but I remained patient for the full six weeks. The results were as the studies indicate. My T levels increased from 497 to 741. I knew I wouldn't need the full 50mg. After my blood test I have weened myself off the Omnifen and today was my last day of taking half the dose - 12.5mg. I experienced some testicle discomfort while on it - some aching at times, and sensitivity to pressure. A couple times I stood up quickly and felt like my right testicle was in some bad pain. I had read a lot of warnings about this stuff causing testicle and prostate cancer so I was a little concerned. I have really enjoyed the 741 levels, but not so sure about the testicle discomfort. Seems like something is wrong. maybe they were just working overtime? What do you think?

Last question: I assume the new levels wont be maintained. I had planned to stay off the Omnifen for about 4 weeks and then do another test just to see if I have skydived back down into the 400's. Does this sound like a logical plan? Or unnecessary. I sure wish I could think of a safe way to keep my T levels naturally high. I assume you have to stay on Omnifen indefinitely to reap the benefits?

Thanks.

**crg** · 11-01-2010, 05:45 AM

had to google omnifen, looks like it's mexican clomid. you can go to the PCT boards and read about clomid..why are you taking it?

..balls working overtime? well shiat son, release the hounds,..tell you wife/gf you have a medical condition and if you dont bust a nut every 10-12 hours you could die from a spontaneous hypertrophy testicular eruption

from swifto's post:

"The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.

No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews."

**CraigWatts** · 11-02-2010, 02:16 AM

Thanks for your reply, but I'm afraid it doesn't answer any of the questions I asked. I did state in my original post that my T levels went up "as per the studies" and that is the study I was referring to. However the questions posed still seem unaddressed at this point. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks

**crg** · 11-02-2010, 05:12 AM

NO, YES
NO, SEE A DOC
NO, why stay on clomid?

Sounds like you dont know what youre doing, do some research on TRT, Test and Clomid and you'll answer all your questions. If you have nat low test, see a doc and get help via blood work, a test script, etc..

**dosXX** · 11-02-2010, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

Hi folks -

Few questions. First off, I've read that "those with hypogonadism" as a disorder - diagnosed - and fitting within that demographic who have that "condition" ... "will benefit from" ... medications that stimulate natural T production and LH production.

Does it stand to follow that if someone were to take such a medication (like Omnifen) for six weeks, and were to see an increase in natural T levels, that this also means they *have* hypogonadism? Or is it moreso a scenario where anyone who takes the stuff will probably see increased T levels?

Second question: I tried omnifen for six weeks as a trial. I only did 25mg daily, but I remained patient for the full six weeks. The results were as the studies indicate. My T levels increased from 497 to 741. I knew I wouldn't need the full 50mg. After my blood test I have weened myself off the Omnifen and today was my last day of taking half the dose - 12.5mg. I experienced some testicle discomfort while on it - some aching at times, and sensitivity to pressure. A couple times I stood up quickly and felt like my right testicle was in some bad pain. I had read a lot of warnings about this stuff causing testicle and prostate cancer so I was a little concerned. I have really enjoyed the 741 levels, but not so sure about the testicle discomfort. Seems like something is wrong. maybe they were just working overtime? What do you think?

Last question: I assume the new levels wont be maintained. I had planned to stay off the Omnifen for about 4 weeks and then do another test just to see if I have skydived back down into the 400's. Does this sound like a logical plan? Or unnecessary. I sure wish I could think of a safe way to keep my T levels naturally high. I assume you have to stay on Omnifen indefinitely to reap the benefits?

Thanks.

for your first question the answer is Yes, you will benefit from medications and after reading about your test results it looks like it's working for you. About your testes, you should have a talk with your doctor about that. And for your last questions, you're assumption is right, getting "off" your regimen may or will negatively impact your test levels. Unfortunately, once you are on TRT program you are pretty much locked-in for life.

**Vettester** · 11-02-2010, 11:15 PM

OP, 497 isn't a terrible score, and depending on where your free/bio-available test sits, you might be doing fairly good.

Prior to starting this medication, your doctor should have ran additional labs including LH/FSH, which is ultimately what your medication is enhancing. What were these scores? Additionally, did you run a PSA test in regards to your prostate concern prior to be treated?

Your testicles probably went through a hypertrophy and reverse atrophy process during the treatment, and tapering process thereafter.

**CraigWatts** · 11-03-2010, 12:43 PM

Crg - telling me "you dont know what you're doing" isn't necessary.

Vette and dosXX thanks for the helpful replies: My LH and FSH were within range but on the very bottom level of normal. My PSA was perfect so no worries there. I had just heard that Clomid can initiate cancer in both areas after use. I know that most guys want to be at about 800. I can tell a marked difference between how I feel at 490 and how I feel at 741. 800 would be absolutely spectacular. 741 felt on the low end of "finally normal again".

I would like to maintain that 741 or 800. I guess that is my goal. But based on what Im reading, I can only do so by continuing clomid which has tons of warnings about cancer risks.

I have tested as low as 420 on Testosterone levels a few years ago. So my range is about 420 to 490. Its too low for me.

Just based on the philosophy of HRT - i basically have to deal with the low levels, or do Clomid, or get on HRT for life .... ?

**dosXX** · 11-03-2010, 04:47 PM

clomid and arimidex helped raise mine from 220 ng/dl to 420 ng/dl in 2 months and after some dosage and frequency modification my test total went up from 420 to 870 ng/dl within the following three months.

**CraigWatts** · 11-03-2010, 06:23 PM

Interesting - actually let me ask this a different way. Im reading about these PCT guys who take Clomid "because their T levels are at about 490" and it raises their levels to about "800" ....

But these guys are taking it to kickstart their natural production. These guys dont go *BACK* to 490 after they stop Clomid. The whole point is to get it going agian, then STOP taking clomid, and enjoy their NORMAL "800" right?

So someone like me who slowly dips back down to 450 after stopping clomid - has an issue - am i correct?

Im not like those other guys - normal dudes - who can take it to get themselves back to *THEIR* norm which is 800 ...

Im the guy who can't maintain 800 without clomid.

Thats hypogonadism isnt it? I know im not at 200 .... but 450 is crap .... isnt it ... ?

**Vettester** · 11-03-2010, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

Interesting - actually let me ask this a different way. Im reading about these PCT guys who take Clomid "because their T levels are at about 490" and it raises their levels to about "800" ....

But these guys are taking it to kickstart their natural production. These guys dont go *BACK* to 490 after they stop Clomid. The whole point is to get it going agian, then STOP taking clomid, and enjoy their NORMAL "800" right?

So someone like me who slowly dips back down to 450 after stopping clomid - has an issue - am i correct?

Im not like those other guys - normal dudes - who can take it to get themselves back to *THEIR* norm which is 800 ...

Im the guy who can't maintain 800 without clomid.

Thats hypogonadism isnt it? I know im not at 200 .... but 450 is crap .... isnt it ... ?

You are correct ... Guys will take Clomid to restart their natural level to the range it was at pre-cycle. Their HPTA gets suppressed during the cycle, but a proper PCT will usually help restore things back to the original condition, well most of the time anyway.

I don't think too many physicians will indicate your condition as hypogonadism. Usually, the criteria is having a score that is less than their reference ranges (and there's several out there), most are <280.

However, that doesn't negate your situation and desire to achieve the upper 1/3 of the reference range. I don't know much about you, but if you're absolutely content with achieving this goal, I'd suggest doing it with a little exogenous test, and a little HCG a few times per week. This will take care of your desire to achieve the upper limits, and it will help keep some steady production with the testicles. However, your low LH & semi low test score will drop even lower, and the treatment is for the long-haul.

If that is your objective, I would present it to your doctor and design a plan to get you in the range you desire. Keep in mind that other sides will probably follow, increased E2, acne, oily skin, etc., you will want to keep a close eye on your lab work results as you get acclimated to this type of regiment. Hope this helps!

**Vettester** · 11-04-2010, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by crg

NO, YES
NO, SEE A DOC
NO, why stay on clomid?

Sounds like you dont know what youre doing, do some research on TRT, Test and Clomid and you'll answer all your questions. If you have nat low test, see a doc and get help via blood work, a test script, etc..

I'm sure with a little patience we can help the OP get a clearer understanding on what will work for his program. His experience is a little limited at the moment, but we can help get that developed and refined if he is willing to participate in this forum. Agree?

**CraigWatts** · 11-04-2010, 11:31 AM

Thanks Vette. Disappointing those are the only options. Im now a week off Omnifen and im pretty much flatlined on libido. I haven't had any sexual activity since Sunday and Im not even feeling the "stir" ... Even at my worst I would get the desire back after 4 days. So this is boring.

I should state that overall, I feel normal. Nothing specifically negative. Just an absence of the positive. Minor negatives are that my workout isn't as productive and I can see some reductions in size with the same amounts of effort in the gym. Also getting difficult to keep the abdominal bloat down again.

I guess I just cant imagine that zero morning wood, zero libido, decreased muscle development, and increased abdominal fat (which is associated with scores in the 400's and lower) is still considered "Normal" to doctors.

Why is that? Is their logic that the treatment options carry risks, so you really need to be suffering bad before they consider the negativity to justify the potential risks? (HRT - cancers, blood clots, prostate problems, etc)

**zaggahamma** · 11-04-2010, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

Thanks Vette. Disappointing those are the only options. Im now a week off Omnifen and im pretty much flatlined on libido. I haven't had any sexual activity since Sunday and Im not even feeling the "stir" ... Even at my worst I would get the desire back after 4 days. So this is boring.

I should state that overall, I feel normal. Nothing specifically negative. Just an absence of the positive. Minor negatives are that my workout isn't as productive and I can see some reductions in size with the same amounts of effort in the gym. Also getting difficult to keep the abdominal bloat down again.

I guess I just cant imagine that zero morning wood, zero libido, decreased muscle development, and increased abdominal fat (which is associated with scores in the 400's and lower) is still considered "Normal" to doctors.

Why is that? Is their logic that the treatment options carry risks, so you really need to be suffering bad before they consider the negativity to justify the potential risks? (HRT - cancers, blood clots, prostate problems, etc)

they dont use logic...

dont wait for a doctor to discover your health problems and/or fix them

**CraigWatts** · 11-05-2010, 11:50 AM

What would happen if you cycled Androgel for a couple weeks, then stopped, then hopped on Clomid for a few weeks, then stopped, back on Androgel ... etc. Seems like you might be able to maintain a decent testosterone level without completely killing your natural production, and maybe .. go long term like that? With breaks inbetween of a few weeks ?

**zaggahamma** · 11-05-2010, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

What would happen if you cycled Androgel for a couple weeks, then stopped, then hopped on Clomid for a few weeks, then stopped, back on Androgel ... etc. Seems like you might be able to maintain a decent testosterone level without completely killing your natural production, and maybe .. go long term like that? With breaks inbetween of a few weeks ?

y all the bother

**ottomaddox** · 11-05-2010, 03:46 PM

Why not embrace it and see a doctor and get some testosterone .

**Vettester** · 11-05-2010, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

What would happen if you cycled Androgel for a couple weeks, then stopped, then hopped on Clomid for a few weeks, then stopped, back on Androgel ... etc. Seems like you might be able to maintain a decent testosterone level without completely killing your natural production, and maybe .. go long term like that? With breaks inbetween of a few weeks ?

If you're leaning this way, then why not ...
1) Just do a normal 10 or 12 week cycle, then run Clomid as a PCT to get your level back up?
2) Just go on TRT if you're not happy with your endogenous production and keep your level at that 700 or 800 score that you desire?

The proposed Gel/Clomid switch out would be disaster IMO! I'd pick and choose a path you want to go down and commit to it.

**CraigWatts** · 11-08-2010, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by ottomaddox

Why not embrace it and see a doctor and get some testosterone.

I guess because people say its such a big step, and levels of 400-490 arent' considered drastic, so .... maybe nothing drastic is necessary to keep them at 800-900 instead.

And one other reason: I doubt there's a doctor on the planet who is going to look at me with a 450 level and agree to give me Testosterone . (im just assuming).

The proposed Gel/Clomid switch out would be disaster IMO!

Primarily because of the shortness of the switching periods you mean? (where i said id do it every few weeks).
It would be better to do 10 full weeks on testosterone gel?

Wouldn't I need some AI if I was going to do 10 weeks of gel?

Thanks!

**zaggahamma** · 11-08-2010, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by CraigWatts

I guess because people say its such a big step, and levels of 400-490 arent' considered drastic, so .... maybe nothing drastic is necessary to keep them at 800-900 instead.

And one other reason: I doubt there's a doctor on the planet who is going to look at me with a 450 level and agree to give me Testosterone . (im just assuming).

Primarily because of the shortness of the switching periods you mean? (where i said id do it every few weeks).
It would be better to do 10 full weeks on testosterone gel?

Wouldn't I need some AI if I was going to do 10 weeks of gel?

Thanks!

what happens when we ASSUME...

answer to the question....wont know you'll need an AI until you start

**CraigWatts** · 11-09-2010, 01:31 AM

Vette?

**flatscat** · 11-09-2010, 08:18 AM

plenty of doc's who would prescribe t at 450 bro. no insurance will cover it, but you can get it.

I think you need to stop looking so hard at the numbers - you are sounding like a doc who knows nothing about trt - good thing you are not your own physician.

I think long term clomid use is a mistake - jmo. Why no look at a low dose hcg protocol for 12 weeks and see where you end up?

Or, just find an aa doc that will treat you and get on trt for say a year - then re-evaluate how you are feeling and make a decision on whether to continue?

The only way to make an informed decision is to actually try it - so go for it!

Good luck

**zaggahamma** · 11-09-2010, 08:20 AM

megamind???????

**Vettester** · 11-09-2010, 08:27 AM

Craig, I'm not a big fan of gel to start with (for various reasons), and I don't know how it would react with you on a cycle. But, YES, I would take the 10 week program opposed to the 2 week gel/clomid proposal.

The AI is dependent on your E2 score. You will need to run labs to know if a AI is needed.

For the price of the gel, you could get a lot of cyp or eth. Not sure why you're looking at that route, maybe it's easier to get your hands on? Anyways, you might look at talking with some of the guys in the Q&A section, which is more geared towards members needing cycle information. Most of my discussions on here lean more towards getting guys started on HRT, and keeping them on it. Wanting to keep your natty in tact is a great thing, but a good portion of the members here have written any hopes of having any natty to work with, so the dialogue is focused on long-term medication.

**CraigWatts** · 11-09-2010, 12:55 PM

Thanks Vette & Flatscat -

I dont seem to be able to send a PM on this forum. Do I need a certain number of posts? One of the guys in another thread said to PM him as he has a FL doc who treats out of state. Wasn't able to get a message off to him. Says I dont have permission to view that page .... when i go to his profile...

**CraigWatts** · 11-16-2010, 11:46 PM

Hi Vette -

You mentioned doing a full 10 weeks on androgel rather than using it for a couple weeks, on and off.

Could you tell me the logic / philosophy behind this? I realize that 10 weeks on androgel will mean 10 weeks of completely disabling my natural T production.

You feel that's better than kicking it back into gear by stopping androgel every so often?

Thanks!