Waking with pain.

**forrest_and_trees** · 11-07-2010, 10:53 AM

Prior to beginning my HRT, I used to wake up mornings in pain. My body would ache. All my joints would be stiff and the pain would actually wake me up. A one of the first things I noticed after I began my HRT was the pain had gone away. As you can imagine, I was thrilled; that is until the insomnia kicked in. I'd dealt with it on a reoccurring basis for many years but for what ever reason, after beginning HRT it became worse... Much worse. But... at least when I did sleep, I woke without pain. Now nearly a year and a half after beginning my HRT, I'm managing to get the occasional decent night's sleep; maybe a decent 6 hours where I only wake 2-3 times in the middle of the night. Unfortunately, with the return of my sleep has come the pain. This morning was the worst it's been since it returned. It usually takes about 15 mins after waking before the pain subsides, today it took a half an hour. So my question is this, has anyone had any similar experiences and do you have any ideas what might be the cause? Any suggestions on what I could do to make it more manageable? It's not the bed since it happens regardless of which bed I sleep and I'm in no position to buy a new bed right now. Your thoughts are welcomed.

**SlimmerMe** · 11-07-2010, 11:00 AM

Sorry to hear this Forrest! I hope someone can help you...arthritis? any chance of this?

**zaggahamma** · 11-08-2010, 01:58 AM

i was thinking same as slimmer..this happens as we get older...and i believe you mentioned carrying a lot of weight around for some years...
yes, a good bed can help....i too would get a memory foam or therapeutic bed if could..
i also have chronic low back issues and i was recently addicted (2 years) to tramadol which i still consider a wonderdrug FOR ME...but very addicting as most pain killers...withdrawl was not as intense as what i read but instead took a week to get over the physical withdrawl (electric feeling in my back/restless legs)...but when i was on it helped with the joint issues as well...
last 2-4 months i've used sparingly aspirin and ibuprofen and even that is rare...
sleep is off and on....cant really pin it down to one thing....but i lean to the fact that MOST OF THE TIME its due to not doin enough during the day

**SlimmerMe** · 11-08-2010, 09:22 AM

Forrest have you considered HGH? From what I recall, you are not taking it? Even low doses might help alleviate some of your aches and pains plus REALLY help you sleep....curious as to your thoughts...

**forrest_and_trees** · 11-08-2010, 11:34 AM

Thanks for the input guys. How would I know if it's arthritis? I don't have any other joint issues, the soreness is only there when I sleep and it's in my sternum as well, is that possible with arthritis? I work out at the gym 3-4 days a week so it's not due to inactivity. I would *love* to try HGH however, I don't have insurance and I'm rich, hence the ongoing thread I started a while back on "Is Affordable HGH Possible". But if you know of a way I could try some, I'd love to.

**forrest_and_trees** · 11-08-2010, 12:31 PM

UPDATE: I just found out some interesting information on how it may actually be possible to get *Free HGH*! [See my post on "Is Affordable HGH Possible" for details.] Now I just need a convincing argument to tell my Doc, any suggestions? Do you really think the insomnia and waking with pain is good enough for a GP?

**zaggahamma** · 11-08-2010, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

UPDATE: I just found out some interesting information on how it may actually be possible to get *Free HGH*! [See my post on "Is Affordable HGH Possible" for details.] Now I just need a convincing argument to tell my Doc, any suggestions? Do you really think the insomnia and waking with pain is good enough for a GP?

if i had to bet i would say NO

but good luck and let us know

**CraigWatts** · 11-08-2010, 06:00 PM

The type of pain you are describing really does sound inflammation related, which can be from any number of causes, all either directly or loosely associated with autoimmune related conditions. Arthritis is an inflammatory condition, as is Lupus, and several others - even Scleroderma. An antinuclear antibodies blood test would rule out any chance that this is an autoimmune / inflammatory related condition, but it really does sound like it. Have you tried fish oil supplementation? I would give that a go for awhile. The lack of movement during sleep is causing the connecting tissues in your body to stiffen up. Either that or your joints themselves are becoming stiff. When soft tissue stiffens due to lack of activity, that is typically associated with aging, and inflammation, etc. Treating it might be as simple as Ibuprofin, which directly addresses inflammation in tissues. In fact there's no doubt were you to pay $100 for a doctor visit, you'd walk out of there with an ibuprofin prescription. Might be a good first solution. Taken at bedtime, it could reduce joint or tissue inflammation while you sleep, and you may wake up feeling better. Interesting to note that extremely low androgen levels in Men is also directly correlated to aging, so who knows - maybe you were so low, for so long, that some premature aging occurred. They say guys with 200 level Testosterone are "that of a 70 year old man". Don't see why some other things which rely on proper androgen levels wouldn't also begin to mimick a 70 year old man. Aches and pains upon waking up, standing up from a chair, etc .... are all common for this age group.

**SlimmerMe** · 11-08-2010, 06:52 PM

FT---i read the post possible chance of getting HGH...I wonder if your doc would prescribe it for Deficient Adult Growth Hormone ? plus I was thinking..I bet with pharma grade you would only need 2 units a day (at the most possibly) for your situation since you are not trying to be a BB with mega doses... and some people even dose every other day and get great results..this would obviously keep the cost down.

**forrest_and_trees** · 11-08-2010, 07:46 PM

Craig: Interesting info, as far as taking ibuprofen nightly, aren't there potential liver damage issues with continued use?

Slimmer: How does one determine whether or not they have Deficient Adult Growth Hormone ? i.e. Is there a specific test?

**SlimmerMe** · 11-08-2010, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

craig: Interesting info, as far as taking ibuprofen nightly, aren't there potential liver damage issues with continued use?

Slimmer: How does one determine whether or not they have deficient adult growth hormone ? I.e. is there a specific test?

igf-1
i got diagnosed with a low IGF-1 level but..insurance does not cover it and I have heard REAL hard to get insurance but you CAN get the script..

**CraigWatts** · 11-08-2010, 08:14 PM

Forrest - probably yeah. Still, I've been given bottles full of the stuff at 1,000mg just for a "potential" of tooth pain after a procedure. They hand the stuff out like candy.

But you're right.

What about Chondritin supplementation?

Maybe someone should reverse engineer this problem. One might accurately state that the insomnia is linked to the condition causing the pain. If the body is in an inflammed state all night, even if not readily apparent until morning, that would keep someone awake. But if HRT is making the pain go away, and therefore the sleep return ... one only needs to look at what has *changed* when HRT began. LH .... FSH ..... T ..... Estrogen .... all the items which change.

Has the Original Poster tried 30 minutes of cardio every day? There is absolutely nothing that can keep me awake when I do that. My fatigue is so intense that I can barely handle it!

Might also help with the joint stiffness and pain ....

Just brainstorming.

**zaggahamma** · 11-08-2010, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by forrest_and_trees

Thanks for the input guys. How would I know if it's arthritis? I don't have any other joint issues, the soreness is only there when I sleep and it's in my sternum as well, is that possible with arthritis? I work out at the gym 3-4 days a week so it's not due to inactivity. I would *love* to try HGH however, I don't have insurance and I'm rich, hence the ongoing thread I started a while back on "Is Affordable HGH Possible". But if you know of a way I could try some, I'd love to.

blood pressure/sleeping issues? pain in sternum as well as what....r u doing heavier bench press than usual and dropping fast?

**lovbyts** · 11-09-2010, 01:57 AM

You sound a lot like me, I have been suffering with pain due to injuries and over all body aches/inflammation for years. Only think that helps so far is vikodin for the pain, usually one a day or less and mostly anti inflammatory. If I go more than a couple days without a anti-inflammatory I am hurting pretty bad.

I tried the memory foam pad, 2x over the last 5+ years. Each time it felt good for a week or so then it made everything worse. The first time I didnt know why I got so much worse for almost 3 months until I stopped using the pad and it got better again.

I think I/we need to move at night. The pads sort of cradle you and keep you from moving and I think this causes the joints to get more stiff/sore.

I have been checked over the years for a couple/few types of arthritis and so far they say no but I know every joint aches. I am now looking into lyme disease just because???

Like you, I am really getting tired of hurting all the time. I feel like I need to sit in a hot tub 24/7. I HOPE to retire in the next 10 years and planning on moving to Asia where it's WARM all the time if possible. Being around beautiful young Asian women has a way of making me forget about my pains also.

I think it's due time I just get my doctor to start doing test after test until they find something and stop living with this sh*t pain all the time. I have been being a MAN far to long and just living with it but I would like to have a life again without not being able to tie my shoes for 30 minutes after getting out of bed due to not being able to bend over, tossing and turning a for hours not being able to get comfortable, feet hurting after 20 minutes of walking, etc.

Keep us updated on what you find out.

**SlimmerMe** · 11-09-2010, 08:55 AM

If by chance it is arthritis, my best friend lived with arthritis for years even as a child. He then fell in love with a nurse who took ALL the WHEAT out of his diet....AND THE ARTHRITIS WENT AWAY. Before this time, he took 45 minutes to get out of bed. Had to manipulate his arms to even reach for anything. Loved hot tubs to relieve the pain and preferred a water bed to alleviate stiffness. He honestly feels removing the wheat is a miracle and he even contacted the arthritis foundation to share this with them and they said "yes some people are triggered by wheat." So....just a thought. You never ever know what might work!

PS: to Lovbyts....He is ready for Thailand too! Nurse is gone! and he loves warm climates and the clear blue sea! ( ME TOO)

**ds53** · 11-09-2010, 10:13 AM

Sorry to hear this forrest and trees, I have the same symptons as you and have had pure hell this fall. I was hurting so bad I went and had a MRI done and it confirmed the arthritis and also so some spinal stenosis. The dr. prescribed me some ambien for the sleep and it works pretty good expecially if i take 600-800 mg of advil along with it. Some mornings I am so stiff and in pain I just get in the whirpool for a while and that sure helps a lot or some times just a tub of hot water helps.
I believe tylenol is what is really hard on the liver. Ibuprofen is hard on the kidneys if you take it while drinking alcohol. Good Luck!

**forrest_and_trees** · 11-09-2010, 10:39 AM

It's not from workingout, I definitely think it's due to immobility. I believe the insomnia I've been dealing with for years was aggravated by the TRT, and that kept me from staying in one place for too long, which eliminated the cause of pain. Now that I'm sleeping longer in one position, the pain now has time to set in before it gets so bad that it wakes me up. I'm may try the ibuprofen thing however, I have a question for anyone who may know. Up until about 2 years ago, I used to drink pretty much nightly and on rough days, I'd pop ibuprofen like candy for the hangovers. I'm just concerned that the combo of drinking and ibuprofen may have weakened my liver's resistance to the stuff and so I'd be more likely to have problems now. Is that likely or is what I've heard about the liver repairing itself over time if allowed to heal is true? I've also heard that a high protein diet helps the liver to regenerate and I've been eating quite a bit of it over the past few years. All my blood work over the past year shows my liver is healthy too. I'm finally getting myself healthy again and I'd hate to resolve one problem, only to create another.

As far as cardio to help with sleep, unfortunately that never worked for me, sometimes I'd have the opposite effect. Prior to my Low T, I used to be a pretty hard core mountain biker and skier. I could spend *all day* on the mountain and still only get 5 hours of sleep. I haven't been able to "sleep in" since my very early 20s. The other interesting thing is I used to have vivid dreams and recall all the details. I even used to lucid dream all the time and control what I did, now I rarely even remember if I dream or not and when I do, the details are very foggy and quickly fade. It sucks.

On a side note, I also suffer from chronic sinus problems. As a result, I can only sleep on my left side, if I roll over on my back my sinuses close up and I can't breathe which I'm sure is attributing to the sleep apnea. I can sleep on my right side but for what ever reason, for only about 30 mins before I wake up. In the past year I've found I often slide off the edge of the bed in the middle of the night and wake up sleeping on the floor with my back against the bed. I'm sure this too has to do with breathing restrictions. Although it has improved in the past month as my sleep has improved. I tend to do it less and less. There's a new, non-evasive out patient procedure to open sinus passages called Sinuplasty. It's similar to angioplasty where they insert a saline filled balloon in your sinus passage to open them. It's relatively new so I'm having a difficult time finding anyone who will do it let alone someone who will do it without insurance. But I'm confident it would help me as I'm often getting sinus infections which only aggravates the problem. Boy.. it sure would be nice to be normal again without all these problems, but then again, that's why I'm here. I'm trying to take charge of my life and get beyond this crap which is why I value everyone's input so much.

**lovbyts** · 11-09-2010, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by SlimmerMe

If by chance it is arthritis, my best friend lived with arthritis for years even as a child. He then fell in love with a nurse who took ALL the WHEAT out of his diet....AND THE ARTHRITIS WENT AWAY. Before this time, he took 45 minutes to get out of bed. Had to manipulate his arms to even reach for anything. Loved hot tubs to relieve the pain and preferred a water bed to alleviate stiffness. He honestly feels removing the wheat is a miracle and he even contacted the arthritis foundation to share this with them and they said "yes some people are triggered by wheat." So....just a thought. You never ever know what might work!

PS: to Lovbyts....He is ready for Thailand too! Nurse is gone! and he loves warm climates and the clear blue sea! ( ME TOO)

Literally warms my heart just reading that. I almost called a couple friends of mine in Thailand last night just to get some sunshine.
The wheat thing is interesting. You never know what might trigger a reaction, it's to bad we cant pin point things like that in people yet.

To the OP, keep forcing the issue with your doc and find a solution. I am going to start to request more test myself to figure this out instead of masking it with pain meds, anti inflammatory and ignoring it.