HRT with Testim didn't work too well... Androgel or Inject?

**HRTstudent** · 12-30-2011, 04:50 PM

First and foremost, my goal is to reach a therapeutic T level but so far on Testim (1 tube/dose per day) for about 3 months my numbers have been too low.

Starting out my total T was around 230 ng/dl. At about 6 weeks I was tested again in the morning before taking Testim and my total T was 270 ng/dl. The labs were different, but the ranges were similar, with 250 being low. Also, my estradiol (ultrasensitive) was 21 pg/ml but I'm unsure where that needs to be.

The take away message here being I need to change something to get better results. So my doctor basically left it up to me whether to go injectable or androgel . He liked androgel and said I could get the right dose easier than with Testim. He also said if we go with Androgel we would not start at a "starting" or low dose.

I also don't like some things about Testim like the severe stickiness. I don't know if Androgel is as sticky but that Testim never loses its stickiness even after an entire day.

I do like the more natural rise and fall of a gel, but an injection once a week would be much easier than coating myself in gel each morning. What I would like is to hear from people who have taken gels and injections or just hear more about peoples' experiences with Androgel.

Thanks in advance! Happy New Year!

**bass** · 12-30-2011, 06:38 PM

injections hands down, and plan on doing it twice a week. start with 60mgs twice a week with 0.5 mgs AI 12-24 hours after each injection. if IM injection is too hard on you try SQ with slin pin!

**J DIESEL3** · 12-30-2011, 07:09 PM

What Bass said for sure!!

I did 2 packs a day of the androgel (100mg)and only got my total test to 362...also free t low as well.

No the androgel will not have that sticky feeling like testim however I had to cover a large area of my body in that crap!

Do yourself a favor and start on injections if you have the choice.

**kelkel** · 12-30-2011, 07:31 PM

The guys are absolutely correct, but it is still a personal decision and lifestyle comes into play as well as convenience. You have to decide what is best for you. I did agel for about a year and did well but recently switched to injections due to a dht issue. Do some searching on this site for androgel and you will find many threads to read that may enlighten you a bit.

It sounds like you have a doctor who will work with you which is a huge plus. There is a lot to consider such as hcg and adex. With that said, read all the stickies above and form an educated opinion. Keep it simple starting out and go from there.

Good luck, welcome to the site and keep us updated on this thread. Post up full bloodwork if you can.

**zaggahamma** · 12-31-2011, 04:29 AM

from what i have seen 90% plus prefer injections including myself

**pugster** · 12-31-2011, 04:47 AM

ive been using testim/tostran for a few months now, the stickyness is a pain , however i found that mixing in a small amount of pure aloe vera gel on application made it dry alot aster with no stickyness /oil sitting on the skin , ive had good results with the gel so far tho im switching to nebido injection over the next few weeks as the alcholol in the gel has started to really irritate my skin and give me exzema .

**Jkladis** · 12-31-2011, 07:44 AM

Does this work?

**yannick35** · 12-31-2011, 08:27 AM

Injections, i was on androgel gel for 1 month, and it was the worst feeling ever, i was in pain in all my joints and more.

I switched to injections and they are a lot better, you will get full effect with them.

**brazey** · 12-31-2011, 12:47 PM

As already said we are all different. But for me there's nothing better than a subcutaneous injection e3d to keep levels stablized.

**Brickhouse** · 12-31-2011, 01:24 PM

Saying SQ.......What is a slin pin, is it the same as an insulin needle?

**yannick35** · 12-31-2011, 01:28 PM

I also beleive that everyone is different and TRT is personal to everyone. This is also very new therapy wise.

I will be changing my dosage from 200mg per week to 100mg per week and see how i feel, i might try to go back at 150mg.

**HRTstudent** · 01-05-2012, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by brazey

As already said we are all different. But for me there's nothing better than a subcutaneous injection e3d to keep levels stablized.

I would like to know if you have any medical literature talking about SQ T therapy. I read here that a member was Rx SQ T by Dr Crisler, who obviously specializes in this. However, in all my reading I haven't come across anything reputable on it. I am very interested to learn more. Thank you.

**sirupate** · 01-05-2012, 02:44 PM

The majority here favor injecting. Some do quite well on Androgel , others not so much. The A-gel is quite expensive...probably just like Testim. The injectible is much cheaper for whomever is paying. Whichever you decide, it may take some fine tuning to get you feeling like you want to feel. Hopefully your doctor will do that fine tuning. Also keep in mind that not everyone needs an AI, but you really need to measure estradiol levels to know how to proceed.

**sirupate** · 01-05-2012, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Brickhouse

Saying SQ.......What is a slin pin, is it the same as an insulin needle?

Yes...typically 1/2" pin length and 29 or 30ga. diameter with 1/2cc barrel. The draw takes a while to accomplish, but the injection goes pretty quickly compared to the draw.

**lvs** · 01-05-2012, 02:55 PM

I have tried Axiron, Testim and Androgel . Androgel is easy to use and much better application wise than Testim. It dries quickly, leaves no smell, or residue and is not sticky. For me, the Androgel did not work, I did not absorb it well at all.

Will your doctor let you self inject or will you have to go in to office to get injections? If you can self inject do for see any problems in being able to do so? Would having to go to office for shot be a deal breaker? Does your insurance cover Androgel? There is also a discount card available for it. These are questions and I would ask and then decide based on your lifestyle. I am 3-weeks in to test-cyp injections, finally after trying the gels, and I am gradually starting to feel better again.

**HRTstudent** · 01-05-2012, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by lvs

I have tried Axiron, Testim and Androgel . Androgel is easy to use and much better application wise than Testim. It dries quickly, leaves no smell, or residue and is not sticky. For me, the Androgel did not work, I did not absorb it well at all.

Will your doctor let you self inject or will you have to go in to office to get injections? If you can self inject do for see any problems in being able to do so? Would having to go to office for shot be a deal breaker? Does your insurance cover Androgel? There is also a discount card available for it. These are questions and I would ask and then decide based on your lifestyle. I am 3-weeks in to test-cyp injections, finally after trying the gels, and I am gradually starting to feel better again.

Price is not a concern as all options are around $50 a month tops. Insurance covers gel and inject.
My doctor would be ok self-injecting and I would be ok with it too.

Really my main concern is getting into a better mental state. Lethargy hit me hardest because I have the T levels of a 70 year old!

I think I am going to give androgel a try for 4 weeks and if that's ok, stick with it for another 4 weeks. I like the more natural daily rise and fall of T as opposed to an injection which is more of a weekly rhythm. Maybe there is no science backing this, but personally I am trying to mimic nature as close as I can with the assumption that that's going to be better for my overall health and well-being. If androgel fizzles then injects are the only logical next step.

I appreciate all the input and help from everyone here. Thank you.

**lvs** · 01-05-2012, 03:33 PM

keep us informed about your experience with androgel .

**brazey** · 01-05-2012, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by hrt

I would like to know if you have any medical literature talking about SQ T therapy. I read here that a member was Rx SQ T by Dr Crisler, who obviously specializes in this. However, in all my reading I haven't come across anything reputable on it. I am very interested to learn more. Thank you.

Sorry, I don't have any medical literature on this. There are many ways to administer TRT and this is the one I found that works best for me. Hope you find yours soon. Please keep us posted.

**kelkel** · 01-05-2012, 09:46 PM

HRT keep us posted on your progress and bw please on this post....

**HRTstudent** · 01-06-2012, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

HRT keep us posted on your progress and bw please on this post....

Will do, I appreciate the help.

**springguy45** · 01-07-2012, 12:07 PM

I have been on TRT for YEARS. I started with injections and like everyone says they are the best. However unless your doctor will allow your to perform your own injections (and most wont) then it becomes a pain just to swing by the dr once or twice a week for someone to give you an injection. I went in signed in then waited 15 to 30 minutes for a shot that took all of 30 seconds! I tried the patches, which sucked, then went to andorgel which I have been using now for atleast 10 years. I just had my annual physical with BW my total was 557 no test for free and had estradiol panel run as well and was in the low 20's. Andorgel is way more convient I just apply mine in the morning after my shower apply to my stomach and shoulders rubs in easy with no sticky after about 5 minutes or so. Personal choice for sure but for me the convience factor better and unless you are going to cycle there can be some highs and lows with injections depending on the test that the dr wil use. Hope this helps

**HRTstudent** · 01-09-2012, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by springguy45

I have been on TRT for YEARS. I started with injections and like everyone says they are the best. However unless your doctor will allow your to perform your own injections (and most wont) then it becomes a pain just to swing by the dr once or twice a week for someone to give you an injection. I went in signed in then waited 15 to 30 minutes for a shot that took all of 30 seconds! I tried the patches, which sucked, then went to andorgel which I have been using now for atleast 10 years. I just had my annual physical with BW my total was 557 no test for free and had estradiol panel run as well and was in the low 20's. Andorgel is way more convient I just apply mine in the morning after my shower apply to my stomach and shoulders rubs in easy with no sticky after about 5 minutes or so. Personal choice for sure but for me the convience factor better and unless you are going to cycle there can be some highs and lows with injections depending on the test that the dr wil use. Hope this helps

Thanks for your input. Sounds like you've had a nice range of experiences which is so valuable in this trial and error matter.

I was a bit confused by your feelings about injects vs androgel , though. You mean the highs and lows of injects but say "they are the best" so I am curious if you could self inject on your own time, would you do that or stick with androgel?

I couldn't imagine going to my doc to get an injection each week. It takes at least 30 minutes of waiting plus the travel/general hassle... talk about a waste of time!

**HRTstudent** · 01-13-2012, 01:53 PM

Update

I just applied androgel 1.62% for the first time and I had to comment on the physical properties. Just as others described here it is a world apart from Testim. No more extreme stickiness, far less to apply. I am very impressed.

On the flipside, it wasn't much cheaper than Testim. In fact, it was the same price after insurance, but androgel offers a trial card to save 50 USD. The trial expires in June, however, and whether it's extended or not I have no idea.

Question

Also, I was wondering this: does anyone know how much T is delivered into the body per pump/dose with androgel 1.62%?

I understand it is 20mg of T per pump, but what gets actually into the blood? With Testim it was about 10%, so their 5g tubes would get about 5mg of T into the blood or about 35mg per week on 1 tube. Thanks.

**BillyBob210** · 01-13-2012, 05:53 PM

I have been on the gels for 2.5 years. I have tried Androgel , compound gels and Testim. I prefer the Testim, it works well for me. I am prescribed two tubes daily and I only need to do 1.5 tubes to keep my serum levels at around 7-800. Two full tubes are really too much since they make me anxious and make my heart race. Everyone is different when it comes to HRT. Not opposed to IM, just don't need it at this point and my docs aren't in line for it. Just keep in mind that the hcg and AI are always a needed in the long run.

Bill

**HRTstudent** · 01-13-2012, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by BillyBob210

I have been on the gels for 2.5 years. I have tried Androgel , compound gels and Testim. I prefer the Testim, it works well for me. I am prescribed two tubes daily and I only need to do 1.5 tubes to keep my serum levels at around 7-800. Two full tubes are really too much since they make me anxious and make my heart race. Everyone is different when it comes to HRT. Not opposed to IM, just don't need it at this point and my docs aren't in line for it. Just keep in mind that the hcg and AI are always a needed in the long run.

Bill

I am just on androgel atm. 700-800 is an excellent number, what are you taking for hcg and AI? Also, if you don't mind my asking, what is your weight?

**ecdysone** · 01-13-2012, 08:04 PM

I'll just say this, going the transdermal route has its perils. For one, there's the constant danger of contamination, whether by direct skin contact of the stuff falling over the place.

Second, the cost is inflated by the drug companies...might be your insurance covers it today, might not be so tomorrow.

But most importantly, the skin is an enriched source of 5-ar enzymes, so expect sky-high DHT levels no matter what. OK, not true for everyone, but very prevalent.

And forth, you might be satisfied with 700+ levels, but alot of guys including me like our "youthful" 1000+ levels, and that's generally very difficult to do with transdermals.

**HRTstudent** · 01-13-2012, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by ecdysone

I'll just say this, going the transdermal route has its perils. For one, there's the constant danger of contamination, whether by direct skin contact of the stuff falling over the place.

Second, the cost is inflated by the drug companies...might be your insurance covers it today, might not be so tomorrow.

But most importantly, the skin is an enriched source of 5-ar enzymes, so expect sky-high DHT levels no matter what. OK, not true for everyone, but very prevalent.

And forth, you might be satisfied with 700+ levels, but alot of guys including me like our "youthful" 1000+ levels, and that's generally very difficult to do with transdermals.

Everything has it's plusses and minuses. There's a short list of negatives for gels, pellets, patches, and injects as well.

If androgel can't get me what I want then I will try mostly likely try injects next. However, I am not after a number but rather an improved physical/mental state.

**kelkel** · 01-13-2012, 11:34 PM

Give it some time hrt. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, drop back and punt.

**ozonexp** · 01-14-2012, 01:34 AM

Been on 5mg of Androgel a/day for about six months my my tes levels are around 2100 should I be worried about this?

**zaggahamma** · 01-14-2012, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by ozonexp

Been on 5mg of Androgel a/day for about six months my my tes levels are around 2100 should I be worried about this?

please start your own thread

**BillyBob210** · 01-14-2012, 09:54 AM

'6, 2" 220 with about 16% bf. Anastrozole .25 mg X 2 per week and hcg 250iu X2 per week. Adjust as needed.

**HRTstudent** · 01-19-2012, 12:35 PM

I just wanted to update this, as I've been on the androgel for a week maybe and it is so much easier and quicker to apply this compared to Testim.

So if you're like me and thought Testim was sticky or a hassle then give androgel a try. It's quite night and day.

Still need to see if it's getting my T in range, however

.

**zaggahamma** · 01-19-2012, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by hrt

I just wanted to update this, as I've been on the androgel for a week maybe and it is so much easier and quicker to apply this compared to Testim.

So if you're like me and thought Testim was sticky or a hassle then give androgel a try. It's quite night and day.

Still need to see if it's getting my T in range, however

.

thats interesting i didnt see much of a difference one was a tube the other a sachet/packet then androgel has a pump but couldnt see night and day

**bass** · 01-19-2012, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by ozonexp

Been on 5mg of Androgel a/day for about six months my my tes levels are around 2100 should I be worried about this?

yeas please start your own thread, i like to know how in the heck you got your test at 2100 with gel, are you eating it?

**HRTstudent** · 01-19-2012, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by jpkman

thats interesting i didnt see much of a difference one was a tube the other a sachet/packet then androgel has a pump but couldnt see night and day

I am using, and have only used, androgel 1.62 so maybe they improved the drying or formulation. But there really is no comparison in my case. I was on Testim for maybe 4 months and it was always the same. Stickiness lasted until the next shower. With androgel 1.62 I can put a shirt on in 30 minutes no problem. I could probably do it in 5 but I play it safe.

**zaggahamma** · 01-20-2012, 04:34 AM

True I haven't used the 1.62 goo

**Leroy Jenkins** · 01-20-2012, 09:52 AM

I started with the 1.62%. It dried in under 2 minutes for me. However, it only got me to 397. On injections now. A co-worker of mine (same doctor) is over 1200 on the gel. I hate the injections (self-inject) but it is necessary. I might try SQ.

**HRTstudent** · 01-20-2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Leroy Jenkins

I started with the 1.62%. It dried in under 2 minutes for me. However, it only got me to 397. On injections now. A co-worker of mine (same doctor) is over 1200 on the gel. I hate the injections (self-inject) but it is necessary. I might try SQ.

Wow, how many pumps were you on? Do you know for your friend?

**Ryanmcd** · 01-21-2012, 01:31 PM

I say try both and don't look for a number base it on how good you feel. I like the gel's better but if I could not hit 7-800 I would go shots, at 500 on gels I don't feel good and at 1200 on shots I feel worse then at 500 with gels but again everyone is different. For me the sweet spot is about 750~ Also I did bloodwork about 6 times and tried every combo of shots/gels/HCG I could think of lol

**HRTstudent** · 01-21-2012, 01:57 PM

Ryan, when you say good what do you mean? And how does your feeling "bad" compare? I'm just confused about this that's all... and I don't know if perhaps when you say you feel bad at 1200 it makes you feel the same was as if you were at 300 or something else.