TRT and Cycle advice and help

**lVletalhead** · 10-23-2016, 03:01 PM

Hi everyone, I am new to this and am looking for some help. I started a test cycle based on a friends advice who wanted to help me.

I have low T level the doc thinks it's from hypogonadism my levels have been low for a very long time. In 2014 I had BW done and they told me my levels were at 6. Never had kids or a pregnancy. Around that time I was dieting and training hard in the gym with a friend and in almost 2 years training hard hitting the weights I was't able to put on much muscle and my energy levels were always very low.

I think my levels have been low since my 20"s cause this has been the case for me for a long time. My sex drive went off a cliff with my energy I was always tired my bones ached I could sleep for 20 hours a day like nothing. I found out my levels were at 6 a couple moths ago and my doc wanted to try me on more anti depressants and SSRI med's which have never helped me in the past but due to the fact that low level T symptoms present the same as depression thats what I have been treated for for many years.

Currently I am almost 34 years old 6'3 and 275 pounds. 2 Months ago I was 315 pounds or heavier which is partly why I decided to try a cycle and self medicate. My diet and nutrients are good I eat a 2000 cal diet and my fats carbs and proteins are a good ammount for what I am trying to do. Thing is I live in a small town in Canada and don't have very good doctors up here, we have no Endocronologists a couple Urologists and no Andrologists.

My doc said when I come off the way to run more tests cause they wont treat me unless they have 3 consecutive tests of my levels being that low. My thyroid function is good which is what leads the doc to think it is hypogonadism. They told me they would treat me with 1 750ml shot of Enthanate every 10 weeks and from all the research I have done this doesn't sound like a good ammount it sounds like it will spike my levels and then I will crash the last several weeks.

Currently I am taking 1 250ml shot of Enth every week and am a week in on stacking with Winni as per my friends suggestion. I have been feeling great ever since starting and have been loosing lots of weight and putting on muscle. I realize that the way I am going is most likely not sustainable and will come off everything in 4 weeks when I am done the cycle.

I am looking for some additional information to help keep me safe during this. I just started taking arimidex , my friend told me that they were not neccesary unless I started to notice negative symptoms but the more I have read the more that doesn't seem to make sense to me. Please help with any information and suggestion.

I am curious about what I should be taking with the shots. How much arimidex or novaldex if any as I was told by my friend it wasn't needed. Since I most likely have hypogonadism am I going to need pct afterwards? If I can't find a suitable doc to help me what should I aim for level wise to maintain healthy levels and keep a sex drive and energy?

I want to keep going and finish the cycle if possible then I'll stop and try find a doc here that can help me. I don't want to go back to how I was when my levels were low as my quality of life was shitty and my wife needs a partner with a sex drive, sex less then 10 times a year is not healthy for a relationship.

**Back In Black** · 10-23-2016, 03:07 PM

Can you split that into paragraphs please.

**lVletalhead** · 10-23-2016, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Back In Black

Can you split that into paragraphs please.

is that better?

**75 Dogs** · 10-25-2016, 10:20 AM

I'm sure someone smarter than me can help you out, but here are some of my observations:

I don't even know what one shot every 10 weeks would do? You are looking for a steady stream of this stuff, not a giant jump and then let it die all the way down. To visualize this, wouldn't it make your life easier for you run a flat race than constantly go up and down a mountain? Hopefully that makes sense.

There is no cycling on TRT. If you really need it, and if you're doing it right, you will shut down your own body's ability to produce testosterone anymore. So you will be on it forever.

I can't imagine you won't have to take an AI. But only your blood test results can dictate how much you should be taking...and that will take time because you have to try a protocol, get tested, then adjust and get tested again, etc. I could only guess at a dosage, you can check out some other threads to see what people are using. But these are just starting points for you, and I don't think anyone is going to be on that random testosterone injection timing you're on. And I personally have no idea how you would administer an AI for one shot of 750mg every 10 weeks. Seems to me that would be too sporadic to try to get under control.

Low or high estrogen is going to cause those same feelings of lethargy and low libido. So once you get your T numbers dialed in, you have to dial those in as well.

I think someone else may say your doctor has no idea what he's doing and you should seek an expert in this field.

**Mr.BB** · 10-25-2016, 01:07 PM

The OP is talking about Aveed, not test enanthate . Thats testosterone undecanoate.

REad the aveed information from supplier here: AVEED® (testosterone undecanoate) injection CIII

Aveed's brother, Nebido is the one used in europe, lots of ppl here are on it. Aveed only got FDA approval last year, while nebido has been used for years.

**75 Dogs** · 10-25-2016, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.BB

The OP is talking about Aveed, not test enanthate . Thats testosterone undecanoate.

REad the aveed information from supplier here: AVEED® (testosterone undecanoate) injection CIII

Aveed's brother, Nebido is the one used in europe, lots of ppl here are on it. Aveed only got FDA approval last year, while nebido has been used for years.

Ahhh...see? Someone smarter than me.

I thought you were talking strictly Testosterone Enanthate . I'm not real familiar with AVEED, so you can disregard most of my previous answer.

**lVletalhead** · 10-25-2016, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by 75 Dogs

I'm sure someone smarter than me can help you out, but here are some of my observations:

I don't even know what one shot every 10 weeks would do? You are looking for a steady stream of this stuff, not a giant jump and then let it die all the way down. To visualize this, wouldn't it make your life easier for you run a flat race than constantly go up and down a mountain? Hopefully that makes sense.

There is no cycling on TRT. If you really need it, and if you're doing it right, you will shut down your own body's ability to produce testosterone anymore. So you will be on it forever.

I can't imagine you won't have to take an AI. But only your blood test results can dictate how much you should be taking...and that will take time because you have to try a protocol, get tested, then adjust and get tested again, etc. I could only guess at a dosage, you can check out some other threads to see what people are using. But these are just starting points for you, and I don't think anyone is going to be on that random testosterone injection timing you're on. And I personally have no idea how you would administer an AI for one shot of 750mg every 10 weeks. Seems to me that would be too sporadic to try to get under control.

Low or high estrogen is going to cause those same feelings of lethargy and low libido. So once you get your T numbers dialed in, you have to dial those in as well.

I think someone else may say your doctor has no idea what he's doing and you should seek an expert in this field.

Thanks for taking the time to read and answer. I am just taking enthanate right now my doc won't prescribe it to me until I come off the test and show 3 more tests with low levels. They did explain that once it was done they would do 1 shot every 10 weeks of enthanate at 750ml which from everything I have read isn't going to be good.

I have my appointment right now and am going to ask to be referred. It sounds like currently I am not able to produce much testosterone on my own and it's either due to my pituitary gland or hypogonadism. The hypogonadism symptoms all seem to fit and explain the last decade of my life.

Currently I'm doing the cycle to try get me weight under control because it got way out of hand and I think the side effects of going back to obese are worse then taking some test and winni.

I'm just worried that if I come off it for the testing that I will end up back in the same boat I was in having 0 energy feeling foggy in my brain and sore and achy amd tired all the time. My quality of life for the last while was not the best and so far all my doc has done is push pills that don't work on me. It's a shitty spot to be in.

From what I understand it's the estrogen I have to worry about while taking this cycle and I have been taking arimidex to help make sure those levels don't spike cause the way I understand it is that stuff kills off the estrogen floating around in my body. I'm just trying to be as safe about taking the winni and test shots as I can.

Results wise I am almost down 50 pounds and over 3 inches on my waist plus I am putting on muscle which is exciting for me cause I spent 2 years in the gym with proper diet and lost some weight but put on 0 muscle. Workouts were tough too cause I didn't have any energy for them it was all mental and me just pushing through. Now with the cycle I have energy and feel great in the gym I'm loving working out.

**Mr.BB** · 10-25-2016, 04:15 PM

All the questions about PCT and AI are answered here if you read it: My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

IMO if you have hypogonadism symptoms you should work on finding a stable protocol that solves it, and this requires doctor guidance. Adding compounds with hope of losing fat will not help, on the contrary. Steroids dont burn fat, losing weight is easy is just diet and cardio.

**75 Dogs** · 10-25-2016, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by lVletalhead

Thanks for taking the time to read and answer. I am just taking enthanate right now my doc won't prescribe it to me until I come off the test and show 3 more tests with low levels. They did explain that once it was done they would do 1 shot every 10 weeks of enthanate at 750ml which from everything I have read isn't going to be good.

I have my appointment right now and am going to ask to be referred. It sounds like currently I am not able to produce much testosterone on my own and it's either due to my pituitary gland or hypogonadism. The hypogonadism symptoms all seem to fit and explain the last decade of my life.

Currently I'm doing the cycle to try get me weight under control because it got way out of hand and I think the side effects of going back to obese are worse then taking some test and winni.

I'm just worried that if I come off it for the testing that I will end up back in the same boat I was in having 0 energy feeling foggy in my brain and sore and achy amd tired all the time. My quality of life for the last while was not the best and so far all my doc has done is push pills that don't work on me. It's a shitty spot to be in.

From what I understand it's the estrogen I have to worry about while taking this cycle and I have been taking arimidex to help make sure those levels don't spike cause the way I understand it is that stuff kills off the estrogen floating around in my body. I'm just trying to be as safe about taking the winni and test shots as I can.

Results wise I am almost down 50 pounds and over 3 inches on my waist plus I am putting on muscle which is exciting for me cause I spent 2 years in the gym with proper diet and lost some weight but put on 0 muscle. Workouts were tough too cause I didn't have any energy for them it was all mental and me just pushing through. Now with the cycle I have energy and feel great in the gym I'm loving working out.

Mr. BB is way more knowledgeable than me when it comes to specifics, I can only talk in generalities as someone who has been on TRT injectables for about 2 years and almost a year of topicals before that.

Are you sure you maybe didn't misunderstand the doctor's plan, and he actually wants to put you on AVEED like Mr.BB linked to? AVEED® (testosterone undecanoate) injection CIII

It looks like the claim is after your initial first month of treatment, you only need to do it 5 times a year, and it is administered in 750mg doses...just like you said your doc wanted to do. I would double check with him/his office to see if that's what he means. If so, search the forums to see how AVEED is working for other people here.

I know you're doing a bunch of stuff now and happy with the results (and avoiding obesity might be one of the healthiest things you can do) but do you have any idea what this is doing to your blood levels? LH, FSH, Kidney, blood pressure, high or low estrogen...these are all things that should be monitored. And more. I'm hoping your doctor is doing this and you didn't mention it, otherwise you'll have to take things into your own hands and get these tests done. Even so, it sounds like you may still need professional help.

The AI will keep estrogen low, but how much do you need? I'm more sensitive to it so my dose is half or less of what is normally prescribed. You don't want it to go too low, but you don't want it to go too high either. It's a tricky puzzle to figure out. And then when you're in a normal "range", you might actually feel better at the higher or lower end of that.

Honestly, it sounds like you are looking for legit TRT therapy and getting the tests are part of the process. My life was SHITTY before I got on TRT, and it took a long time for it to turn around. It is STILL turning around, so it's not an overnight thing but what other choice do we have?

So I would double check with your doc to make sure he is giving you AVEED, and if he's not or you're not satisfied with the way that treatment sounds to you, find another doctor. You can find them online they don't even have to be in the state you live in. There is a sticky here on finding a doc. You can also look at reviews online and call and talk to the offices to see what you're in for before committing. They will also need tests too, though. They need to make sure you are a good candidate for this.

It's your health, and only you can decide what to do about it. Don't settle for a doctor or treatment you aren't into, and ask plenty of questions when you do find a doctor. They should be working with you, not against you, and you need to do what's best for you. Hopefully your doc is talking AVEED and you can go from there.

**kelkel** · 10-25-2016, 06:39 PM

Good stuff from BB and 75!

Op, you're never really going to be able to pinpoint the problem unless you come off, run a pct and pull the correct BW after a couple months. Otherwise your guessing unless an MRI revealed a pituitary adenoma and/or a testicular ultrasound shows an issue.

You mentioned your thyroid function is good. According to who? Many docs fail to read thyroid labs correctly.

**lVletalhead** · 10-25-2016, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Good stuff from BB and 75!

Op, you're never really going to be able to pinpoint the problem unless you come off, run a pct and pull the correct BW after a couple months. Otherwise your guessing unless an MRI revealed a pituitary adenoma and/or a testicular ultrasound shows an issue.

You mentioned your thyroid function is good. According to who? Many docs fail to read thyroid labs correctly.

It was my doc who said that the thyroid was good which made her suspect hypogonadism. Thank you all for the input I read that link that was posted and that is very well written I wish I had read it a lot sooner. I'll come off everything soon it just sucks cause for the first time in years I feel good, I have energy and a sex drive my wife is finally getting the attention she deserves. My doc never called me to follow up with my labs in 2014 they just let me continue on with test levels at 6. It's been tough and I imagine it'll be tough when I come off but I realize I need to for a proper diagnosis and to sustain test levels properly for the rest of my life. Should I do pct when I come off? I imagine I should that it will just help my levels go back to their low state sooner then just stopping and waiting?

**lVletalhead** · 10-25-2016, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by 75 Dogs

Mr. BB is way more knowledgeable than me when it comes to specifics, I can only talk in generalities as someone who has been on TRT injectables for about 2 years and almost a year of topicals before that.

It looks like the claim is after your initial first month of treatment, you only need to do it 5 times a year, and it is administered in 750mg doses...just like you said your doc wanted to do. I would double check with him/his office to see if that's what he means. If so, search the forums to see how AVEED is working for other people here.

I know you're doing a bunch of stuff now and happy with the results (and avoiding obesity might be one of the healthiest things you can do) but do you have any idea what this is doing to your blood levels? LH, FSH, Kidney, blood pressure, high or low estrogen...these are all things that should be monitored. And more. I'm hoping your doctor is doing this and you didn't mention it, otherwise you'll have to take things into your own hands and get these tests done. Even so, it sounds like you may still need professional help.

The AI will keep estrogen low, but how much do you need? I'm more sensitive to it so my dose is half or less of what is normally prescribed. You don't want it to go too low, but you don't want it to go too high either. It's a tricky puzzle to figure out. And then when you're in a normal "range", you might actually feel better at the higher or lower end of that.

Honestly, it sounds like you are looking for legit TRT therapy and getting the tests are part of the process. My life was SHITTY before I got on TRT, and it took a long time for it to turn around. It is STILL turning around, so it's not an overnight thing but what other choice do we have?

So I would double check with your doc to make sure he is giving you AVEED, and if he's not or you're not satisfied with the way that treatment sounds to you, find another doctor. You can find them online they don't even have to be in the state you live in. There is a sticky here on finding a doc. You can also look at reviews online and call and talk to the offices to see what you're in for before committing. They will also need tests too, though. They need to make sure you are a good candidate for this.

It's your health, and only you can decide what to do about it. Don't settle for a doctor or treatment you aren't into, and ask plenty of questions when you do find a doctor. They should be working with you, not against you, and you need to do what's best for you. Hopefully your doc is talking AVEED and you can go from there.

Thank you very much I will look into that a bit more it might be the aveed she was talking about but I'm unsure. As for the BW it's a guessing game as she flat out refused to help in that regards until I have come off of it and been off it for a few months.

I did this to myself, I didn't follow up and hound my doc as much as I should have and I assumed that if my levels were that low that they would have contacted me for follow up. I just started test on a whim to see if it would help and it's night and day difference.

I don't have the highest faith in my doctor epically after how the past several years have gone and them just wanting me on prozac or citilapram or other pills of the sort that never once helped. It's tough when you have been misdiagnosed and not listened too for that long. Specially to know that something as easy as a test shot could alleviate all those issues I was having and make my life better.

It's also tough to go back to feeling like that and hopefully find a doc who will actually do the proper tests and work with me not try tell me I have a depression and anxiety disorder. Never in my life did I have it until my mid 20's and I imagine that's when my levels went off a cliff like the yoedler on price is right.

**lVletalhead** · 10-25-2016, 07:36 PM

IMO if you have hypogonadism symptoms you should work on finding a stable protocol that solves it, and this requires doctor guidance. Adding compounds with hope of losing fat will not help, on the contrary. Steroids dont burn fat, losing weight is easy is just diet and cardio.[/QUOTE]

Mr. BB that link was an excellent read full of great information I thank you very much for sending it to me. I only wish I had read that sooner. Thank you very much for your advice and the info you have shared.

In the past when I was in the gym I was able to loose weight but I was the skinny fat look. I was not able to put on muscle no matter how hard I worked out or how good my diet was. Back then I was consuming about a gram and a half or protein for every pound on me and staying around 2000 calories. In my youth and teenage years I never had an issue putting on muscle I'm naturally a big guy, with a big frame.

**kelkel** · 10-25-2016, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by lVletalhead

It was my doc who said that the thyroid was good which made her suspect hypogonadism. Thank you all for the input I read that link that was posted and that is very well written I wish I had read it a lot sooner. I'll come off everything soon it just sucks cause for the first time in years I feel good, I have energy and a sex drive my wife is finally getting the attention she deserves. My doc never called me to follow up with my labs in 2014 they just let me continue on with test levels at 6. It's been tough and I imagine it'll be tough when I come off but I realize I need to for a proper diagnosis and to sustain test levels properly for the rest of my life. Should I do pct when I come off? I imagine I should that it will just help my levels go back to their low state sooner then just stopping and waiting?

Well, most labs still use a TSH range that is far to broad. A more modern, accepted range is .3 - 3.0. Make sure your doc is looking at more than just TSH. FT3 and FT4 are also needed at a minimum to fully access thyroid function. Hypothyroid causes hypogonadism.

Yes, you should do pct. If nothing else, think of it as speeding up the process of finding the causative factor.