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Thread: Anavar (Oxandrolone) does lower SHBG!

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    Youthful55guy is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Anavar (Oxandrolone) does lower SHBG!

    Hi All,

    Some of you know my story of having excessively high SHBG that is unresponsive to any OTC/supplement remedies touted on the internet or in forums. Long story short, numerous tests over the past 5+ years show it to be in the mid 70's nmol/L (range 19.3-76.4). This causes havoc with my free T. I have experimented with oral Winstrol (Stanozolol ) with great success and have determined that 5 mg twice per day (10 mg total) along with about 40 mg T-cyp every 3 days keeps both my SHBG and Free T about perfect. E2 is also within range, though I nudge it down with some very small doses of anastrozole that I dispense with the "Vodka Method).

    A few weeks back I ran into this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16540931 (free download from PubMed) which showed great success in lowering SHBG with Anavar in HIV patients without any impact at all on their hemoglobin levels. However, there was a dose-response in hepatic toxicity, but it seemed manageable at the lower doses and one needs to keep in mind that these are very sick people taking multiple medications that can stress the liver.

    My experiment was to discontinue Stanozolol and substitute it with 30 mg per day Anavar, and then after 6 weeks measure Total and Free T and SHBG, liver enzymes and a bunch of other things. The results showed that at 30 mg Anavar per day, there was an approximately 73% reduction in SHBG. In fact, it went a bit too low. My level was 20.2 nmol/L, which is slightly below range, and Free T went a bit high out of range. Although, truth be told I ever so slightly increased my T dose so I don't know if Free T would have been out of range had I not altered my t dose.

    I should also mention that my liver enzymes were just fine and similar to that observed with 10 mg Stanozolol per day.

    Bottom line, is that it appears (for me) that about 20 mg Anavar per day can be used interchangeably with 10 mg Stanozolol for SHBG reduction and that it does not appear to substantially stress my liver. More than likely I'll stick with Stanozolol because it is much less expensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    Hi All,

    Some of you know my story of having excessively high SHBG that is unresponsive to any OTC/supplement remedies touted on the internet or in forums. Long story short, numerous tests over the past 5+ years show it to be in the mid 70's nmol/L (range 19.3-76.4). This causes havoc with my free T. I have experimented with oral Winstrol (Stanozolol ) with great success and have determined that 5 mg twice per day (10 mg total) along with about 40 mg T-cyp every 3 days keeps both my SHBG and Free T about perfect. E2 is also within range, though I nudge it down with some very small doses of anastrozole that I dispense with the "Vodka Method).

    A few weeks back I ran into this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16540931 (free download from PubMed) which showed great success in lowering SHBG with Anavar in HIV patients without any impact at all on their hemoglobin levels. However, there was a dose-response in hepatic toxicity, but it seemed manageable at the lower doses and one needs to keep in mind that these are very sick people taking multiple medications that can stress the liver.

    My experiment was to discontinue Stanozolol and substitute it with 30 mg per day Anavar, and then after 6 weeks measure Total and Free T and SHBG, liver enzymes and a bunch of other things. The results showed that at 30 mg Anavar per day, there was an approximately 73% reduction in SHBG. In fact, it went a bit too low. My level was 20.2 nmol/L, which is slightly below range, and Free T went a bit high out of range. Although, truth be told I ever so slightly increased my T dose so I don't know if Free T would have been out of range had I not altered my t dose.

    I should also mention that my liver enzymes were just fine and similar to that observed with 10 mg Stanozolol per day.

    Bottom line, is that it appears (for me) that about 20 mg Anavar per day can be used interchangeably with 10 mg Stanozolol for SHBG reduction and that it does not appear to substantially stress my liver. More than likely I'll stick with Stanozolol because it is much less expensive.
    You hit the nail on the head. My response to you was/is going to be the cost associated with oxandrolone is not worth it if you are achieving you desired levels with Stanozolol & cyp.
    I have run 2 cycles of oxandrolone in the past and I wasn't really impressed to be honest, especially considering the cost vs. reward
    Probably won't go back for another round any time soon unless I run across an super good deal on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    Bottom line, is that it appears (for me) that about 20 mg Anavar per day can be used interchangeably with 10 mg Stanozolol for SHBG reduction and that it does not appear to substantially stress my liver. More than likely I'll stick with Stanozolol because it is much less expensive.
    I've been considering anavar too because of putative lower live toxicity and being possibly milder on lipids, I use 5mg stanozolol die for the purpose of lowering SHBG, that made my TRT at least not make me feel worse but my LDL cholesterol has been on the ramp, normal was 80 and as of last reading it approached 130. HDL and liver enzymes are untouched so far.

    But, like you stated in the last sentence, stanozolol is so cheap compared to var, and I need a very tad of it.

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    Damn YG I wish you hadn't changed the second variable as well. Would have been interesting to see it's effects on it's own in your situation. Personally I love var. I'm currently running 20 mgs per day for the past 5 weeks to help with an injury. I feel a difference even with such a low dosage. Doc prescribed as well for the next 5 months. No, I won't run it that long but I'll damn straight fill the script monthly.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Damn YG I wish you hadn't changed the second variable as well. Would have been interesting to see it's effects on it's own in your situation. Personally I love var. I'm currently running 20 mgs per day for the past 5 weeks to help with an injury. I feel a difference even with such a low dosage. Doc prescribed as well for the next 5 months. No, I won't run it that long but I'll damn straight fill the script monthly.....
    I originally started down this path because I ran out of Stanozolol and then I increased the T dose as an attempt to keep Free T in a reasonable range. Then I ran across the Anavar article and thought I'd give it a try since I had a small stock of it. I was not anticipating such a strong SHBG suppression response, so (right or wrong) I kept the T dose at the elevated level (about 60% increase above my standard dose). This was based on some estimates of how much of my T I thought would get sucked up by an elevation in SHBG without the Stanozolol.

    Turns out that the Anavar was much more effective at lowering SHBG than I thought it would be and I didn't need the extra T. However, it did corroborate the published paper to show that it was indeed effective in lowering SHBG. What I found most interesting from the paper was that it no significant effect at all on hemoglobin production at any of the studied doses (20, 40, or 80 mg/day)compared to the placebo controls. I was under the impression that Anavar did promote polycythemia. I was wrong.

    I know have a year supply of Stanozolol and I'm back on my standard protocol, but it was a valuable learning experience.

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    Here's an afterthought too. For those with "Normal" SHBG levels, you may wish to carefully monitor those levels if you choose to use Anavar or Stanozolol for recreational purposes. I would imagine that it would also suppress SHBG production in normal individuals too. If your SHBG levels go too low, it can lead to a number of problems, most of which have to do with rapid metabolism of steroid hormones in the liver. SHBG serves an important function is protecting these hormones from too rapid of metabolism, so having low SHBG could theoretically lead to Low T and Low E2. Once again reiterates the point that all protocol changes should be based on labs and be followed up with labs to understand the effect.

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    Great research man! Be my doctor please!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    I originally started down this path because I ran out of Stanozolol and then I increased the T dose as an attempt to keep Free T in a reasonable range. Then I ran across the Anavar article and thought I'd give it a try since I had a small stock of it. I was not anticipating such a strong SHBG suppression response, so (right or wrong) I kept the T dose at the elevated level (about 60% increase above my standard dose). This was based on some estimates of how much of my T I thought would get sucked up by an elevation in SHBG without the Stanozolol.

    Turns out that the Anavar was much more effective at lowering SHBG than I thought it would be and I didn't need the extra T. However, it did corroborate the published paper to show that it was indeed effective in lowering SHBG. What I found most interesting from the paper was that it no significant effect at all on hemoglobin production at any of the studied doses (20, 40, or 80 mg/day)compared to the placebo controls. I was under the impression that Anavar did promote polycythemia. I was wrong.

    I know have a year supply of Stanozolol and I'm back on my standard protocol, but it was a valuable learning experience.

    No doubt valuable. I would think though that the 60% increase in T would have had a nice impact as well on it's own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    Here's an afterthought too. For those with "Normal" SHBG levels, you may wish to carefully monitor those levels if you choose to use Anavar or Stanozolol for recreational purposes. I would imagine that it would also suppress SHBG production in normal individuals too. If your SHBG levels go too low, it can lead to a number of problems, most of which have to do with rapid metabolism of steroid hormones in the liver. SHBG serves an important function is protecting these hormones from too rapid of metabolism, so having low SHBG could theoretically lead to Low T and Low E2. Once again reiterates the point that all protocol changes should be based on labs and be followed up with labs to understand the effect.
    I had to move to EOD pins for that reason, the winstrol crushed SHBG to < 10 nmol/l and that hugely went to increase metabolism/excretion resulting in pretty sharp spikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    I've been considering anavar too because of putative lower live toxicity and being possibly milder on lipids, I use 5mg stanozolol die for the purpose of lowering SHBG, that made my TRT at least not make me feel worse but my LDL cholesterol has been on the ramp, normal was 80 and as of last reading it approached 130. HDL and liver enzymes are untouched so far.

    But, like you stated in the last sentence, stanozolol is so cheap compared to var, and I need a very tad of it.
    I think the Stanozolol liver toxicity issues is way overblown by bodybuilder abuse of the drug. Yes, at the 40-100 mg doses bodybuilders need for anabolic purposes it is hepatotoxic, but then again so is Anavar in a dose-response fashion as clearly shown in that large double-blind, randomized, placebo controlled study I posted. In fact, hepatotoxicity was the #1 reason for withdrawal from the study. In this case dose really does make the poison. I have never had abnormal liver labs when I keep the Stanozolol dose under 10 mg per day.

    With regard to lipids, I'm afraid I'm not the best test subject because I started taking very low dose 10 mg/day atrovastin (Lipitor) long before I started taking Stanozolol. About a year after I started TRT, my total cholesterol began to rise above 200 and the HDL/LDL ratios were taking a turn for the worse. My doc wanted to put me on a much higher dose of atrovastin, but I said I wanted to start at the absolute lowest possible dose. It turns out I was right and that keeps my cholesterol under 200 and my lipid ratios in the excellent range. This seems to be unaffected by either Stanozolol or Anavar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRexMoore View Post
    Great research man! Be my doctor please!
    No MD here, just a guy with an advanced degree in reproductive endocrinology, and more importantly, highly motivated to fix my own problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    No doubt valuable. I would think though that the 60% increase in T would have had a nice impact as well on it's own.
    With a normal SHBG of around 75 nmol/L, it takes a lot of Total T for enough to spill over to Free T. I chose that dose based on some past experiments. Unfortunately, that dose is not sustainable for me because of polycythemia problems. My hemoglobin quickly goes out of range, more so than the maximum allowed blood donations can compensate. This is what led me down the Stanozolol research in the first place. I wanted to get my free T into the upper 75th percentile without having to deal with the side-effects of excessively high Total T. Turns out that 5 mg 2X per day Stanozolol + 40 mg T-cyp every 3 days was the sweet spot.

    One minor problem with Stanozolol is that it is known to stimulate erythropoiesis (polycythemia), so in that regard Anavar is a better choice for SHBG suppression. However, I believe that at my low dose it's not going to be that much of a problem and the cost differential favors use of Stanozolol over Anavar.
    Last edited by Youthful55guy; 07-08-2017 at 06:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    I had to move to EOD pins for that reason, the winstrol crushed SHBG to < 10 nmol/l and that hugely went to increase metabolism/excretion resulting in pretty sharp spikes.
    I believe that Stanozolol is soluble in alcohol (but not water). If your 5 mg dose is too much for you, you might consider using the "Vodka Method" for dosing smaller amounts. I use this method with anastrozole since I am highly sensitive to it's effects.

    After much experimentation with a bottle with a screw cap eye dropper, I have found that if I dissolve a 1 mg tablet of anastrozole into 1.5 mL vodka and then dispense about 5 drops per day into my drinking water in the morning, my total weekly dose of anastrozole is about 0.5 mg per week. I would imagine a similar dosing schedule could be developed for Stanozolol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    I think the Stanozolol liver toxicity issues is way overblown by bodybuilder abuse of the drug. Yes, at the 40-100 mg doses bodybuilders need for anabolic purposes it is hepatotoxic, but then again so is Anavar in a dose-response fashion as clearly shown in that large double-blind, randomized, placebo controlled study I posted. In fact, hepatotoxicity was the #1 reason for withdrawal from the study. In this case dose really does make the poison. I have never had abnormal liver labs when I keep the Stanozolol dose under 10 mg per day.

    With regard to lipids, I'm afraid I'm not the best test subject because I started taking very low dose 10 mg/day atrovastin (Lipitor) long before I started taking Stanozolol. About a year after I started TRT, my total cholesterol began to rise above 200 and the HDL/LDL ratios were taking a turn for the worse. My doc wanted to put me on a much higher dose of atrovastin, but I said I wanted to start at the absolute lowest possible dose. It turns out I was right and that keeps my cholesterol under 200 and my lipid ratios in the excellent range. This seems to be unaffected by either Stanozolol or Anavar.
    My cholesterol was above 200 before TRT with LDL-C being 150. It normalized after starting and never witnessed high readings again until AI was implemented in protocol (was likely too much AI).

    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    I believe that Stanozolol is soluble in alcohol (but not water). If your 5 mg dose is too much for you, you might consider using the "Vodka Method" for dosing smaller amounts. I use this method with anastrozole since I am highly sensitive to it's effects.

    After much experimentation with a bottle with a screw cap eye dropper, I have found that if I dissolve a 1 mg tablet of anastrozole into 1.5 mL vodka and then dispense about 5 drops per day into my drinking water in the morning, my total weekly dose of anastrozole is about 0.5 mg per week. I would imagine a similar dosing schedule could be developed for Stanozolol.
    I don't think it's the dosage being too much, it's just the way I respond, either high or too low. Any minimum effective dose I believe it's going to crush it, doesn't matter, I'm planning to jump on weekly (yes, EW) pins of TU (nebido/aveed) at a later point.

    I've react badly to AIs. Any sudden change in E2 status triggers an host of sides. That's why my current plan is to keep Test as low as no "feel" for AI is needed, and stacking a non-aromatizable AAS instead (not that I recommend this approach to anyone, and to complicate matters, I can't get E2 sensitive where I live). I've failed over and over because of the shattering fatigue I get from AI, no matter dosage. I've also recently discovered morning cortisol to be on bottom of range and that will require further investigation, and it's well another reason for the exhaustion I'm still having, despite I've drop AI two months ago.

    Another idea would be to obtain .25mg anastrozole squared tabs from a well known moldovian UGL and try 1/4th of that ED to EOD.
    Last edited by bizzarro; 07-09-2017 at 02:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    I believe that Stanozolol is soluble in alcohol (but not water). If your 5 mg dose is too much for you, you might consider using the "Vodka Method" for dosing smaller amounts. I use this method with anastrozole since I am highly sensitive to it's effects.

    After much experimentation with a bottle with a screw cap eye dropper, I have found that if I dissolve a 1 mg tablet of anastrozole into 1.5 mL vodka and then dispense about 5 drops per day into my drinking water in the morning, my total weekly dose of anastrozole is about 0.5 mg per week. I would imagine a similar dosing schedule could be developed for Stanozolol.
    YH55 are you really sure this vodka thing is enough to suspend the molecule in liquid? I did good at math and physics but my chem knowledge approaches zero. Have you pulled bloods to see if the dosing keeps you stable?

    I never did good with AIs but I believe it's all about stability so wished to give it a last try with the EOD pins I'm doing now.

    Dosage has to be daily and no more than .065, hence totaling about .5 weekly just like yours.

    I got 100x 1mg anastrozole tabs I've paid for and no intention to trash them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Damn YG I wish you hadn't changed the second variable as well. Would have been interesting to see it's effects on it's own in your situation. Personally I love var. I'm currently running 20 mgs per day for the past 5 weeks to help with an injury. I feel a difference even with such a low dosage. Doc prescribed as well for the next 5 months. No, I won't run it that long but I'll damn straight fill the script monthly.....
    You got your wish Kel.

    I did switch back to my normal Stanozolol protocol for one day and then decided to take the opportunity to see what would happen to SHBG if I dropped the Anavar dose from 30 mg per day (Experiment #1) to 20 mg per day (10 mg AM and 10 mg PM). At the same time, I lowered my T dose to just 14% above my prescribed T rather than the 60% higher dose I used in Experiment #1. I did this because I plan to move forward with this ever so slightly higher T dose when I return to Stanozolol and the objective of this experiment was to try to optimize the Anavar dosage to my T dose if I should ever decide to switch to Anavar in the future for SHBG suppression.

    Keep in mind I use a blended T, which is mostly T-cyp, but has a little T-prop blended in. As I've pointed out in other threads, T-prop has a higher mg for mg amount of molecular T than T-cyp , or any of the other more common esters for that matter. Therefore, when I calculate dosages, I calculate them based on the total amount of molecular T:

    Prescribed Dose: 27.9 mg molecular T E3D molecular T = 9.3 mg/day
    Experiment #2 Dose: 31.8 mg molecular T E3D = 10.6 mg/day
    Experiment #1 Dose: 44.4 mg molecular T E3D = 14.8 mg/day

    Interestingly for comparison sake, testicular testosterone production in the normal, average male is approximately 7 mg of molecular T per day: Testosterone and Reproductive Dysfunction Men

    RESULTS FROM EXPERIMENT #2

    SHBG
    SHBG wet up slightly from 20.2 to 22.8 nmol/L. I expected a bigger increase, so it points to how effective Anavar is in lowering SHBG. It also points to the need for a 3rd experiment sometime in the future for an even lower dose of Anavar. I suspect 10 mg per day might be optimal for me. Although I won't be conducting this experiment anytime soon for a variety of reasons I won't go into here.

    Total T
    Total T went UP from 780 to 833 ng/dL, even though the Total T dose was decreased. This is not totally unexpected. As I've discussed in numerous other threads, one of the functions of SHBG is to protect T from metabolism in the liver. So when SHBG goes up, less T gets burned off, so Total T goes up. I suspect if I had not decreased my T dose from the pervious experiment, that Total T would have been much higher (probably in the 1200 range).

    Free T
    As expected, Free T decreased from 26.4 to 19.9 pg/mL. This too was not unexpected, since SHBG went up and I dropped my T dose.

    Estradiol
    As expected, it was pretty much unaffected by the change in SHBG or in the use of Anavar. I keep my Total T within normal ranges all the time, even within the two experiments, so there is no reason that E2 would be altered to any large degree. It remained within range (8-35 pg/mL) at 30.2 pg/mL (previously at 32.9).

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    Just thought I'd update the group on where I'm going next with SHBG.

    I recently came across some references in the literature that pretty conclusively demonstrate what I've suspected, and that is that thyroid hormones (both T3 and T4) stimulate the production of SHBG. The studies are pretty conclusive and they've actually identified the gene that is stimulated by T3 and T4. This is makes me question my use of Armour Thyroid (doctor prescribed). Even before I started taking Armour Thyroid, my SHBG was high, but it has increased even higher the last couple years. Perhaps not so coincidentally, I've also increased my dose of Armour Thyroid over this same time period from 30 to 60 to 90 mg/day. As the experiments I've conducted with Winstrol and Anavar have shown, I can bring down the SHBG with small doses of these AAS drugs, but I'm wondering if perhaps I should reevaluate taking Armour Thyroid at all.

    After I concluded the last Anavar experiment, I went off both Anavar and Wistrol for 3 weeks so in order to get my labs done for my annual check up. My doctor does not know that I am using the low dose AAS drugs to suppress SHBG, so I went off the drugs so that she sees what she is expecting in the labs. Shockingly, my SHBG shot up from 22.8 to 94.4 nmol/L (range 19.3-76.4). This is the highest it's ever been.

    I'm back on 10 mg/day Winstrol and plan to stay at that dose indefinitely. I see no reason to switch to the more pricy Anavar. In 3 more week (4 weeks back on Winstrol), I plan to do another benchmark SHBG lab and a full thyroid panel. After that, I'm going to slowly begin to reduce my Armour dose by 15 mg every 2-4 weeks until I'm completely off the stuff and then repeat the labs. I may even do some interim labs at 30 and/or 60 mg if I'm motivated.

    I may not be able to completely normalize my SHBG levels, but I'm hoping that I can reduce my dependence on Winstrol, or at least lower the required dose.

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    What were your labs for thyroid before the Armour? You could switch to T4 only, could be of some help compared to T4+T3.

    On my part SHBG stay crushed even with T3 being overdosed.

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    BTW thanks for the idea of AI suspended in vodka. Daily micro-dosing isn't not giving me any side as compared to standard dosing. The point is whether it's going to be effective lol.

    I'll improve solubility a bit by using pure alcohol 99% in place of strong liquor, heat it, then drop half of 1mg anastrozole pill in 10ml liquid, and gently shake until homogeneous, should give an enough of an accurately dosed solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    What were your labs for thyroid before the Armour? You could switch to T4 only, could be of some help compared to T4+T3.

    On my part SHBG stay crushed even with T3 being overdosed.
    SHBG was high from the start and it got higher with Armour. Only one lab prior to Armour 67.5. Then a bunch at 30 mg Armour in the 60-70 range. Then it started creeping up the last couple of years and during that time my Armour dose went to 60 and then 90 mg.

    According to the research I've read, both T3 and T4 raise SHBG. And one study actually discussed why certain individuals do not respond, even in a hyperthyroid state. I think I'm going to stay the course and do the Armour withdrawal experiment to see what happens. I'm not really convinced anymore that the stuff is helping anyway. This will be an opportunity to test that hypothesis too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    After I concluded the last Anavar experiment, I went off both Anavar and Wistrol for 3 weeks so in order to get my labs done for my annual check up. My doctor does not know that I am using the low dose AAS drugs to suppress SHBG, so I went off the drugs so that she sees what she is expecting in the labs. Shockingly, my SHBG shot up from 22.8 to 94.4 nmol/L (range 19.3-76.4). This is the highest it's ever been.
    Thanks for all the attention to detail! I'm shocked by the rise in shbg in 3 weeks. Amazing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Thanks for all the attention to detail! I'm shocked by the rise in shbg in 3 weeks. Amazing.
    I knew from past experience that SHBG responds within about 2 weeks to Winstrol , so the it jumping up in 3 weeks was not a surprise, just the magnitude of the increase is what shocked me. I've suspected that it might be the Armour for some time based on posts I've read from other guys, but never substantiated with research. Now that I've dug into the medical journals, I see that it's been known for a while (since 1988) that both T3 and T4 increase SHBG in normal thyroid individuals, and that in 2009 the mechanism was isolated to the triggering of a gene in the hepatic cells that trigger the release of something called HNF-4alpha, which then triggers an increase cellular SHBG mRNA levels.

    Here are the two studies I'm referring to. Full text versions are available free for download.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3403362
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19336534

    The really interesting thing about the first study is that they indirectly corroborate what I've been saying about Total T levels increasing with increasing levels of SHBG, even when the TRT dosing is unchanged. They used an old (RIA) method of measuring Testosterone in these subjects. This method measures Total T, although they do not discuss that fact in the paper. They observed that then they administered either T4 or T3 to normal thyroid volunteers, that SHBG increased. In both men and women, plasma SHBG increased in a dose-dependent manner with L-T4 or L-T3 and correlated positively and significantly with serum thyroid hormone levels. The really interesting finding was that in men, but not women, there was a concomitant increase in plasma T levels. This makes perfect sense in light of what I've noticed with my labs and the theory that SHBG protects the T from liver metabolism and excretion. This then causes an increase in Total T because what is being produced is being excreted at a lower rate. Since women produce very little T to begin with, the rise in Total T is not noticeable, but in men the effect is significant. However, given that it is bound T, the levels of Free T (which is most important to us) decreases.

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