Thread: Need Info On Igf
12-13-2004, 12:55 PM #1New Member
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- Oct 2004
Need Info On Igf
hey whats up? new to igf and been trying to do all of the research i can before jumping into it. searched through all of the threads and can not find exactly what i am looking for. please if you can point me in the right direction i would be happy. i have read that people have ran it by itself with good result, with little to none sideeffects, and for short periods of time. i would like to run it by itself but need to know how much and how long while still being safe.
12-13-2004, 12:57 PM #2
Long™R3IGF-I is an analog of human IGF-I.
· It is a superior alternative to insulin in serum-free media.
· It increases protein production by cells in culture medium.
· It increases cell viability by inhibiting apoptosis.
· It has a longer half-life in cell culture than insulin.
· It is readily available.
· There is secure and ample manufacturing capacity at GroPep Limited.
· No animal- or human- derived material is used in the manufacture or storage of Long™R3IGF-I.
· Long™R3IGF-I is already being used in the manufacture of three (3) biopharmaceuticals approved by FDA and EMEA.
Frequently Asked Questions
What cell types will respond to Long™R3IGF-I?
All cells that have a Type I IGF receptor will potentially respond. Most commercially used cells including CHO, fibroblasts and hybridomas have a type I IGF receptor. All cells which respond to pharmacological concentrations of insulin (>1 mg/liter) will respond to Long™R3IGF-I (10-50 mg/liter).
Is storage of the stock solution at 4°C acceptable?
How long is the stock solution stable for under these storage conditions?
Liquid stability data shows that Long™R3IGF-I is stable for 3 years (-20°C to 37°C). Therefore, the stock solution should be stable at 4°C for 3 years.
What type of preparation is available?
Liquid formulation, preferable for GMP production.
Freeze dried preparation.
Is Long™R3IGF-I stable?
Re-test date for freeze-dried peptide is 3 years. Liquid formulation stability studies have recently been completed. It is stable for 3 years (-20°C to +37°C). We have data indicating stability in media at 4°C for 1 year.
Here is an article written by a self-experimenter.
December 15, 2000
Answer: What a perfect question! You actually have talked to just the right person. I have a business associate that worked for the company that produces this in Australia. Several years ago, I ordered 10mg of Long R3 IGF-1 and used it for several months. What I found out was truly amazing.
Before I tell you about my results, let me tell you that if you are going to use IGF-1 then make sure it is the Long R3 version! Let me explain. Regular IGF-1 like what is produced in your body is transported around connected to binding proteins. There are quite a few of these and their main purpose is to grab ahold of the IGF-1 peptide and keep it from being quickly degraded. Without these binding proteins, all of the IGF-1 would be metabolized in the body within a few minutes. The problem (at least it seems like a problem but might actually be a good thing) is that these binding proteins basically prevent the IGF-1 from performing its function. As long as IGF-1 is attached to the binding protein it cannot do the cool stuff that it wants to do. Regular IGF-1 must be released from its binding protein in order to accomplish its mission. Part of the problem is that much of the IGF-1 is degraded before it is released (seems like much is wasted doesn’t it?)
With Long R3 IGF-1 this problem doesn’t exist. Understand that the Long R3 version does not bind to the various binding proteins. It is free to move throughout your body and immediately start doing all the cool stuff that it wants to do. Again, understand that the Long R3 version is several orders of magnitude stronger than regular IGF-1.
If you would happen to use regular IGF-1, you would need several milligrams per day in order to get the desired effect. With the Long R3 version, you need only microgram quantities. Long R3 is also inherently MUCH cheaper to produce. What I am saying is that for the average person, regular IGF-1 is not practical-it is too expensive and you need to use too much. With Long R3 IGF-1, the price to results ratio is pretty good!
Something else I want to explain is how I went about preparing it for injection into my body. Unfortunately, this is not easy and the average person will have a hard time doing it. At the time, I worked in a sophisticated lab which had all of the necessary equipment. I ordered 10mg of Long R3 IGF-1 and it came in a single flip-top vial. 10mg might not seem like much but believe me, when it comes to Long R3 IGF-1, it is a ton! Some people might say to just add saline to the vial, keep it in the fridge and inject it when necessary. However, this will not work well because the IGF-1 is not highly stable and will degrade in an aqueous environment. 10mg was enough for many months and I needed a way that would allow the IGF-1 to remain potent during this entire time. I did my research and developed my method. I ordered what is known as microvials and sterilized them. I then diluted the IGF-1 with sterile water and added just a tad of acid to increase stability. Although it took quite a while, I then used a micropipette and alliquotted an amount of solution that contained 50mcg into one of my microvials. I closed the microvial and then froze it in a deep freezer. When I was ready to inject, I took out one or more of my microvials, thawed it out, combined it with saline and injected it.
When I first started taking Long R3 IGF-1, I used 50mcg every other day. Amazingly, within days, I started noticing some effects in my body. I felt super hungry all of the time and just felt “anabolic ”. I can’t describe this feeling except to say that it was very similar to being on anabolic steroids (I wasn’t on at the time). Within one month, I gained almost 17 pounds of fairly lean mass! After the first month, something happened though and I noticed that it didn’t seem to be working that well. I upped the dosage several times over the next month to keep up the desired effects. On the third month, I was using several hundred micrograms per day but wasn’t noticing any further gains. All in all, I gained about 20 pounds of pretty solid mass!
Please notice that almost all of my gains were within the first month of taking the Long R3 IGF-1. After this first month, my gains slowed down considerably and eventually stopped altogether even though I was taking high dosages. Why did this happen?
From all of my research, I suppose one of two things might have happened to prevent me from making further gains. What I truly suspect is that the Long R3 IGF-1 downregulated the amount of binding proteins being produced by my body (research confirms this). When I first started to inject the IGF-1, I was supplementing my own body’s IGF-1. I not only had my own IGF-1 working throughout the day but I had the potent surges of Long R3 IGF-1 that I would inject. Over time though, the binding proteins were downregulated. Of course my body continued to produce some (albeit less) IGF-1, however, because there were very little or no binding proteins it was quickly degraded. From what I can tell, I was in a state where 95% of the day my body did not have the benefits of IGF-1. Basically, it got what it got when I injected the Long R3 version.
The other possibility is that I built up antibodies to the Long R3 IGF-1 which basically sought out and destroyed what I injected. Although possible, I don’t believe this actually happened because it is not supported by research. I have seen no evidence which suggests that Long R3 IGF-1 causes antibody production.
To fix the above problem, one would have to cycle the Long R3 IGF-1. The best thing would probably be to take it every other month. This would allow your own body’s IGF-1 and binding proteins to return to normal.
Overall, I had a good experience with Long R3 IGF-1. The results were different than with steroids . I have noticed that steroids cause preferential growth of certain muscles, especially those that are stressed (as in lifting). The IGF-1 though seemed to cause my entire body to get a little thicker. I guess IGF-1 is less compensatory in nature and exerts a more whole-body anabolicity.
Would I recommend IGF-1? To the right person who is very careful and knows what he’s doing and has a good background in the sciences and has access to a good lab, YES! However, you can tell that I have listed many prerequisites to using it. For the average Joe, I believe is is just too complicated to be safe.
12-13-2004, 01:40 PM #3New Member
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- Oct 2004
thanks for the reply good information. the other question i have is that i have seen that there will be oral igf comming out soon and if it is the real deal will it be more suited for the average person because you do not have to prepare it and is that were the safety comes from. i also read that insulin can be dangerous, dose this have the same dangers?
12-13-2004, 02:14 PM #4
I have heard of that as well and im not really sure but i know its a reliable company that is coming out with it so im assuming it should be
12-13-2004, 02:50 PM #5New Member
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12-13-2004, 03:10 PM #6
12-13-2004, 03:13 PM #7
This is pretty much a beginners guide to getting started on insulin .
Directions for first time insulin users
This is an article I wrote a little while ago and posted on several boards. I know its a long post but take the time and read it because your life does in fact depend on it. There are a couple other articles on the Anabolic Review board in the Hot Topics Section but I think they all pretty much have the same info.
Let me know if you have any questions
Insulin is the most anabolic you can take. On the other hand its also one of the most dangerous for two reasons availability and ignorance. I will be the first to tell you that every time I have been hypoglycemic (when blood sugar drops to dangerous levels) its has been as a result of something I did wrong. Used responsibility and with respect for the potential sides it is quite safe and extremely effective. That being said we'll start off with what you are going to need.
There are several types of insulin out there but for our purposes we are only interested in two. The first being my favorite Humulin R and the other being a bit newer to the body building community Humalog.
Humulin R is the most widely used and time tested insulin in our arsenal. It has a max duration of 4hrs and its peak can been seen around 2hrs after injection. This becomes particularly important when planning out you meals for the day so keep the timetables in mind.
Humalog is a bit newer but some feel just as effective and a bit safer. Humalog has a max duration of 2hrs and its peak can be seen around 1hr after injection. When selecting to use one or the other keep in mind your schedule, meals, and physical activity for the day as it will all play a role. One other point that needs mentioning is that Humulin R is available over the counter at pretty much every pharmacy in the country for about $25 for 10ml (which will last you a very long time) and Humalog is available only through a prescription or over the black market for a price about double that of Humulin R. When approaching a pharmacist keep in mind that its a lot more convincing if you buy the needles at the same time you get the insulin. This way they are less likely to refuse to sell it to you which they have been known to do from time to time. If this should happen just continue on to the next pharmacy and despite what they tell you "you dont need a prescription" it might be their store policy to see one but legally it is not required and if you make enough of a fuss you will get what you need.
The next thing you will need is the actual needles for injection. These are not the same type that you would use for anabolics or other androgens. The type of needles you will need are U100 insulin needles. That is exactly what you need to say when are trying to buy them. A box of 100 will usually run about $15-$25 and again will last you quite a while.
NOTE: Be fore warned now, using a syringe labeled with cc/ml or anything other than u100 is potentially fatal. The difference between the amount of insulin used for our purpose and that which will kill you is less than 1/2 a cc.
The next two things I think you will need and I highly recommend having on you is a wrist watch with a chronograph (stopwatch) and glucose tabs and/or a can of soda. First I'll explain the wrist watch. The stop watch is to be started immediately after the injection and monitored periodically to keep track of what is in your body and how long it is active. This can also be used to determine whether or not you are feeling side effects or simply just nerves from the fear that follows using for the first time. For instance I always use Humulin R which we know has a duration of 4 hours and a peak at 2 hours. This means that the greatest effects will be felt somewhere between 1-1/2 to 2 hours after injection and then they will steadily lessen till it is no longer active 4 hours after injection. When you use a stopwatch you have an accurate record of when you felt the effects which will become more important as you get more experienced using insulin. The glucose tabs are your safety net. If you are feeling hypo (hypoglycemic) these tabs will return your blood sugar levels to a safe range where you can get some food. They are available at all pharmacies for about $1.00. I have also used a soda. Soda is high in simple carbs which act quickly when blood sugar is low and allow you to get to a safe range where you can get some food in you. Now that we've covered all the equipment needed to safely use insulin we'll move on to dosage diet and scheduling.
Dosage diet and scheduling:
Whenever you start insulin its always wise to start at a lower dose and taper up over the first couple of days of use. Insulin is still new in our community and there is a potential for becoming diabetic so don't take chances start small more is not better where insulin is concerned more is simply more fat and more dangerous. This is a schedule I use when just starting insulin:
day1: 5iu's post workout
day2: 6iu's post workout
day3: 7iu's post workout
day4: 8iu's post workout
day5: 9iu's post workout
day6: 10iu's post workout
day7: same as day 6
This concludes week once from here on out this is how I proceed. If I am going to be increasing my dose even further.
day8-10: 10iu's morning, 10iu's post workout
day11-14: 10iu's morning, 10iu's noon, 10iu's post workout
day15 and on: increase post workout dose till I start to feel symptoms of hypoglycemia and then back the dose down accordingly. NOTE: THIS IS ONLY FOR ADVANCED USERS, DON'T EXCEED THE DAY 7 DOSE TILL YOU GET SOME TIME UNDER YOUR BELT. I AM NOT KIDDING YOU WILL DIE!!!
Your diet will depend on the amount of slin you take per injection. The rule is 10 grams of carbs per IU of insulin. Therefore if you take 10iu's at an injection you need 100 grams of carbs. This is a bit overkill the actual figure is about 5-7 grams but its best to stick with the 10 rule while starting out. I feel that the best most accurate way to consume the proper amount of carbs after an injection is through MRP's or other shakes. The amounts of carbs on these are far more accurate than those you will find on the back of a bread bag. My meals are usually layed out like this:
7am: 10iu's insulin, shake
12pm: 10iu's insulin, lunch
7pm: 10iu's insulin, shake, higher in carbs than others
11pm: safe for bed
If you'll notice there is a method to the madness above. After taking your first injection if insulin you will need a shake immediately. After this you are good for the next 2 hrs till the insulin peaks. Once you hit the 2hr mark you will need more carbs either another shake or a meal with sufficient carbs. After you have cleared the 4hr mark you will be clear from danger. Now this is all based on using Humulin R. If you are using Humalog you will need to take your first meal after injection and another "1hr" after. Then after the 2hr mark you will be safe. My shakes are made up of 1/2 pack of MetRX (berry) and 2 scoops GNC brand weight gainer (vanilla) and 16oz of whole milk. This shake has a caloric value of about 800 cals and around 50grams of protein and 150+grams of carbs. This is a good meal for those starting out. As you progress though you will want to decrease the carbs and eliminate the fat completely to maximize lean mass gains and minimize water and fat retention but for the purposes of starting out simply taking T3 will offset any fat gained. One thing to keep in mind is that T3 will reduce your sensitivity to insulin allowing you to take a higher dose but again save this till you get some more time in.
Side effects and procedures:
After injection and starting your stopwatch your first task is to get some carbs in. Next the first sides you will feel is tired. This is normal and is to be expected. You will usually feel this somewhere between 15-30 minutes after your injection. The key here is not to sleep, if you sleep you wont feel further more dangerous sides and therefore you wont be able to save your ass. The next thing you need to do is have another meal/shake at the 2hr mark. If you miss this just get it in as soon as possible. If you delay long enough you will start to feel hypo around 3 to 3-1/2 hours after injection. When this happens you will feel a sort of numbness that I can only relate to ephedrine. After this you will start to get some shakes in your hands followed by a cold sweat. Once you get to this point you are full blown hypo, the next thing that will follow will be a bit of tunnel vision and this is as far as I’ve been after this its all textbook I imagine coma will follow shortly after passing out. When you get the symptoms listed above don’t hesitate. Get some soda/glucose tabs followed by a meal or shake. One other fact I neglected to mention is that a mix of carbs is necessary when consuming a meal. Simple carbs are used to quickly and complex don’t kick in fast enough. A good mix is the way to go.
12-13-2004, 03:13 PM #8
and 1 more article
Ok, lets have a look at insulin .
Its highly anabolic and non-androgenic , and in case some of you are in the dark (I'd like to think we're all clear on anabolic versus androgenic, but ya never know) I'll briefly touch on the subject before diving in... if youre ok on anabolic/androgenic concepts, skip to the INSULIN part...
ANDROGENIC VERSUS ANABOLIC
ANABOLIC is defined as "The process of constructive metabolism" or of building complex substances out of simple substances.
The way your body processes protien, carbohydrates, and fat (all simple substances) and makes muscle (a complex substance) is ANABOLISM.
ANDROGENIC is basically defined as pertaining to male sex characteristics.
"Steroids " are actually called "Anabolic Androgenic Steroids." They accomplish "anabolism" through "anabolic" pathways, some being more androgenic (testosterone esters) and some less (winstrol , anavar , primobolan , ect...).
Most often, with reduced androgenic properties comes reduced anabolic properties, but it isnt always cut and dry. If anyone is interested I'll go into it another time, but lets head toward the insulin topic.
INSULIN: NonAndrogenic but Anabolic
Insulin is NOT a sex hormone. It is not related in any way to testosterone, or to estrogen for that matter. It is a product of the pancreas as opposed to testosterone which is a product of the HPTA, pituitary, gonadal, leydig, mishmash of interconnected glands...
WHY IS INSULIN ANABOLIC
So why is insulin anabolic then? Insulin is a partitioning agent. A "shuttle" if you will.
Picture insulin as a bus. Nutrients board the bus, and insulin pulls away and drops off the nutrients at the proper bus stop. That is basically what it does, and for all intents and purposes that is everything you need to know to understand how it works.
So by insulin shuttling these nutrient where they need to go, it enables anabolism and is therefor anabolic!
WHY NOT JUST TAKE CARBS TO RAISE INSULIN
Well, the amount of carbs you would need to take in to increase natural insulin levels to the degree a 10 i.u. shot would would be far more dangerous than using insuiln (and using insulin is NOT that hard OR dangerous).
Carbs at that level would eventually lead to diabetes and fat gains.
If insulin is a bus taking nutrients where they need to go, then exogenous insulin is a bullet train! It can hold far more nutrients than a normal naturally produced burst of insulin can, and it works quicker. Exogenous insulin is the most efficient way to accomplish glycogen overcompensation, period.
WHAT KIND DO I TAKE
Im a major supporter of fast acting insulin. The faster the better!
Currently he fastest acting insulin available is Humalog. It is active in 15 minutes, peaks in 1 hour and clears the system around 2 hours.
Next would be Humalin-R. It is active in about 30 minutes, peaks at the 2 hour mark, and clears the system at the 4 hour mark.
"Biophasics" are mixtures of fast and slow acting insulins, but are not the best choice in my opinion, due to an active dose being in you throughout the day. The reason you dont want that will be covered in the "HOW DO I USE IT" section.
There are also Humalin-L and Humalin-S, but they are long acting, and are no more use to me than the Biophasics. There are also porccine and bovine derived insulin, but I am against injecting animal derived substances.
WHEN (AND HOW MUCH) TO USE
Im going to assume we want to avoid any fat gains at all. Even bulking I dont like to gain any unneccesary fat, so Im going to disuss it from that stand point.
The ultra conservative time to use insulin is post-workout. Most people who are concerned about fat dont go over 10 i.u. as a total dose.
Some people us it on waking, before breakfast, since your body is in a basically carb depleted state. Its the kind of thng you have to try for yourslef, and if it works for you, do it. If you thnk youre gaining fat, stop. BUT! Dont start it at both times at once. Make sure you get your post workout dosage worked out and that you know it is not causing you any fat gains before you try pre-breakfast shots. That way you can take out all the guess work as to where any fat gains may come from.
DISPELLING A FEW MYTHS
There is a commoly held perception that you MUSt take in 10grams of carbs per I.U. of insulin, some radicals say 5 grams... well, theyre both wrong.
I got curious about this when I discovered that my insulin dependant diabetic friend didnt even keep track of what she ate post injection. She would feel hypoglycemic after a shot and take a Glucose Tablet.
A glucose tablet is only 5 grams of glucose (carbs)! So I started to think, "Hmmm, mabye everyone is off point on this?"
After conducting a few experiments on myself, I found that you can go considerably lower in carbs than people previously believed.
Now it doesnt make sense to go low in carbs, because that defies the purpose of using the insulin in the first place, but it does free us from having to use so much that there might be some "spill over" in carbs that cant be utilized. So it really makes us able to have more freedom in carbs choices and amounts.
The "risk" in insulin use is not as risky as people believe. Any person with an ounce of sense can see the warning signs of a problem coming, and remedy the situation.
HOW DO I DO IT
If you look at the drug store, you can get these little pen cases that hold a loaded insulin syringe. They are great for our need, you load up the syringe, and put it in the case, and throw it in your bag/purse/whatever. After the workout, head to a bathroom stall and inject it under the skin! Pull up a little skin from the abdomen or upper thigh (anywhere will do, but these are easiest) and inject. Do not shoot into a muscle. This rushes the dose and makes it harder to predict when it will spike.
So now you have 15 minutes to get some carbs (actually you have longer, since the initial hit of the dose is mild and easy to cope with, the spike is a little more harsh, but still nothing unbearable. If you use the carbs, you probobly wont notice the initial dose OR the spike.)
(this is based on Humalog at 10 i.u.)
I use a powder with a 20% simple/80% complex ratio (actually its 17% mono, 5% di, 7% tri, 5%tetra, and 66% penta-saccharides). I use about 60grams of carbs to the 10 i.u. of insulin.
This gives me a nice solid stream of carbs to overcompensate my depleted muscles, but not so many that I risk fat accumulation from the excess.
Now you are good to go till around 1 hour after the initial injection. At this 1 hour mark, the majority of the dose hits your system. Now is the time to eat a good balanced (AND FAT FREE!) meal. The fat-free emphasis will be explained in the POTENTIAL PROBLEMS section. This balance meal of carbs and protien and little to know fat can be anything from a protien drink and a crab drink, to a low fat MRP, to some lean chicken and rice... your choice.
After this meal, you dont need to pay anymore consideration to the insulin, it will gradually decrease and will be out of your system at the 2 hour mark.
Till you get accustmed to the use of insulin, start low and slow. Start at 2 i.u. then 5 i.u. then 7 i.u. then 10 i.u. That way you get a better understanding of any hypoglycemia you may encounter. Ive went as high as 35 i.u., just to try it, but at a certain point a higher dosage doesnt yield any better results (except fat!)
Insulin is relativly safe. If you dont take in any carbs after using it, your body will give you PLENNTY of warning! Youll feel dizzy, tired, achey... hypoglycemic. What is happening is your body has no glycogen to use as fuel. Your muscles re depleted from working out, and often times youve tapped your liver for any remaining glycogen. The insulin does, searching for glycogen to use, takes the rest from your liver, and in the absence of carbs coming in to make more, it heads for the brain.
Your brain uses glucose as its primary fuel source (a little fat, too.) Thats why you get dizzy and light headed, the same with during a ketogenic diet... low glucose equals light headedness.
So if you forget about the carbs, youll get a warning from yuor body, and you can get your ass in gear and get some carbs in you.
If you get to the point where youre nauseated, just drink some sugary beverage and get some carbs in you quickly. Youre still a long long way from any major danger, but dont mess around.
"Fat Free" I said earlier about the 1 hour mark meal. During the 2 hours of the dosage duration, you should avoid fat like it is the plauge! Insulins partitioning properties are as effective at sending fat to the fat stores as it is carbs and protien to muscles!
So till the dose is clear of your system, NO FAT! (Thats another reason why I advocate the fastest acting insulin you can get.)
12-13-2004, 03:25 PM #9New Member
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so are there any dangers to igf? i want to stay away from insulin and just do igf by itself. i have read that people will carb up on igf and take it post workout and on non workout days. i have also heard that people take it morning and before bed. like i said i have been doing alot of research on it and for every thing i read someone else will say something different. someone said the the sideeffects of igf are less then aas. i know i am asking alot of questions but before i jump into anything i like to know all i can. thanks for all of the information you have been giving me i do appriciate.
12-13-2004, 04:39 PM #10
well if you have cancer cells there is potential for them to multiply on igf thats the only thing i would be worried about personnally
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