i heard that adding t3 to hgh is good but what does the t3 actually do?does it help burn more fat or does it help gain more muscle?i ask this because i thought that t3 eats up muscle tissue that it doesnt discriminate between fat and muscle.
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i heard that adding t3 to hgh is good but what does the t3 actually do?does it help burn more fat or does it help gain more muscle?i ask this because i thought that t3 eats up muscle tissue that it doesnt discriminate between fat and muscle.
hgh lowers your t3 level. so taking 25mcg ed for the whole hgh cycle is just replacing whats been shunt away by hgh use. plus t3 helps with protein synthesis.
-rodge
Hi RodgeQuote:
Originally Posted by rodge nl.
I been thinking of doing some T3 or T4 and have been doing alot of reading but can't find anything saying HGH lower's your normal output.
Can you direct me to the link for this info?
Thanks so very much : )
Blue
I just breezed my studies and articles and found this, but there is a lot out there when you research:
Human Growth Hormone
Pharmaceutical Name: Somatotrophin
Effective dose: 6-12 IU/day in combination with androgens and insulin for muscle growth, 3-6 IU/day for fat loss purposes
Average Street-price: $50 for 4 IU
Available Doses: 2,3,4,10,12,16,24,72 IU vials for subcutaneous injection
Characteristics:
HGH is, unlike most hormones used by bodybuilders, not a steroid hormone, but a proteinaceous hormone made up of a chain of 191 amino acids. All animals have growth hormone, but each seems to be specific to the species. HGH was first isolated in the late 70's and early 80's as a biological form. The hormone was literally extracted from the pituitary of deceased individuals. As with anything extracted from carcasses this imposed a serious risk of contracting the Kreutzfeld-Jacob disease (since the late 90's best known as mad cow disease), a normally rare neural infliction that makes you spastic and can cause death over a period of no more than two weeks. Not exactly appealing. There also wasn't, understandably, much demand for such a compound on the black market. Late 80's early 90's geneticists succeeded in manufacturing a genetic form of HGH however, through a very complicated technique using mice genes and what have you not (I'm not a geneticist, don't ask me). This also seriously upped the price of the compound.
But around that time, mainly due to this safer form, some top-level athletes were taking an interest. With increasing drug tests making the most effective anabolics forbidden territory, a pharmaceutical race to find replacement compounds that could not be detected had begun. And since then several athletes have and are still using HGH. It's a very mythical compound, since professionals will use it in high doses and make obvious improvements, yet most recreational users seeking to try it have to settle for lower doses and get little if anything out of it in terms of lean muscle mass increases. Along with several human studies1,2 that clearly document that HGH administration offers us no benefit in this aspect, it makes one wonder. Its terribly expensive and most people seem to get nothing out of it. So is it really worth it when extremely effective steroids can be bought for the proverbial nickel and dime? I don't think so, but I'll get back to that later.
So what is GH useful for? Well first of all its effects on reducing bodyfat have been well-documented. Daily doses of 3 to 6 IU injected subcutaneous have actually been shown to spot reduce bodyfat mass and have, at least for some athletes, proven invaluable in contest preparation time. This dose, for short periods of time, may be somewhat affordable to a truly dedicated athlete. But one can still wonder if it is really worth it. GH has also been shown to elicit extremely positive effects on erythropoeisis3, the manufacture of red blood cells. The administration of GH in older athletes with a strong decline in GH levels has shown a severe improvement in endurance. Since levels of GH decline by half every decade, a person of 60 has roughly 15-20% of the GH he had at age twenty. So HGH is especially beneficial to older athletes regarding the effects on endurance. But just how effective superdosing HGH in younger top athletes is, no one really knows. It would be virtually undetectable as well, so no doubt this has been experimented with.
Now in regards to muscle mass, I've yet to see anything prove the contrary of what the studies I provided claimed. I've not seen HGH increase muscle mass at all. Then again, I've never seen anyone use 10-12 IU per day the way some top level professionals do. Some claim that HGH can cause hyperplasia rather than hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is the growth of muscle cells, hyperplasia is the division and thus multiplication of cells. The theory goes that this does not increase size immediately, but in due time, due to the increase in the amount of cells, when they all do hypertrophy under the influence of steroids and insulin, the result will be much greater. Of course one side-effects of HGH is that it seems to increase the size of everything, including bones (which gives very ugly protrusions in people who have no growth left in them) and intestines (which explains the incredible increase in gut size of professional bodybuilders, despite low body-fat percentages). Now these side-effects alone would allow for several pounds increase. Stack that with 3 grams per week of testosterone and an equal dose of other steroids, some insulin, lots of rest and 8000 calorie diets, and I really don't see how much the HGH contributed in creating the muscle-weight these athletes have. I mean amateur and recreational users top 260 pounds, fairly lean using 1 gram of test and 1 gram of other drugs per week, maybe some insulin. It seems to me at least that HGH is a royal waste of money. Even if it did contribute 3 or 4 pounds, is it worth a habit of 150 dollars per day? Not in my book.
In short, HGH may provide many benefits, but will rarely be worth the money. Top-level competitors, especially those subject to drug tests may find this to be worth it to give themselves and edge, most will not. HGH is a very effective compound with a lot to offer, but currently not really worth the money you'd pay for it. It is getting cheaper (In Europe the popular thing now is the 36 IU Genetonorm, selling for 50-60 bucks) but until manufacturing becomes more cost-effective, chances of prices reaching sane levels any time soon are not that high. What has been an interesting observation is the re-appearance of the old biological form. While all commercial forms had been discontinued, underground versions of the biological form have resurfaced. Previously despised, the chants of the top competitors claiming HGH is the holy grail of performance, many amateurs will now risk using this crude version to get some of that benefit for a cheaper price. Even if it means they have a high chance of dieing one of the most terrible deaths known to man. It's a funny world, eh?
Stacking and Use:
For the best results HGH should be stacked with any number of compounds. If at all possible the use of a serious steroid cycle, cytomel (T3) and insulin should be used. Not only do these promote the best results with HGH, HGH will allow for better results with them. It promotes the release if IGF-1 (insulin-like growth factor I) in the liver, which is an extremely anabolic hormone. In conjunction with insulin it will therefore promote extreme nutrient retention in the muscle cells, providing the perfect anabolic environment. Cytomel seems to give it a great deal to work with. Metabolism is increased, together they form a great fat-loss combo, but more nutrients now become available as well. Along with the nitrogen/protein retention of some strong anabolic steroids this should provide very good overall results. But one can't mistake HGH as some form of miracle cure. Its no better than these other compounds, and it won't turn the cycle into a miracle of muscle growth either. Some would think this because of the incredible cost, but nothing of the sort is true. It has equal use, it just costs a hell of a lot more. Which is my main reason in stating its simply not worth what you get out of it.
For all intents and purposes of increasing endurance and performance to some level, 3 to 6 IU will suffice. The same for most fat loss purposes. HGH has a very short half-life (30-45 minutes or so) and should be injected at least once daily, maybe twice daily if at all possible. For possibly more anabolic results due to its effects on freeing nutrients and increasing IGF-1 levels, 10-12 IU per day are needed for an extended period of time (10-15 weeks), usually in conjunction with other anabolic compounds. Its interesting to note that in your choice of anabolic, an aromatizing compound like testosterone should be given preference since estrogen has positive benefits on HGH as well.
Brands & Products:
Biomed Somatohorm (PL) 4 IU
Ferring Zomacton (G) 4 and 12 IU
Kabi Pharmacia Genotr (NO) 2,3 and 4 IU
Genetonorm (B,ES, PT) 4 IU
Genotropin (S,BG,A,GR,NL) 2 and 3 IU
Genotropin (S,DK,PT,CZ,NO,CH) 12 IU
Genotropin (G,DK,FI,S,A,PT,HU,GR,NL,CH) 16 IU
Geno Kabi Quick (G) 2 and 3 IU
Somatohorm (CZ,ES,FR) 4 IU
Genentech Nutropin (US) 10 mg solution
Nutropin Aqua (US) 10 mg solution
Protropin (US, MX) 10 mg solution
Lilly Humatrope (G,DK,ES,S,GB,FI,B, HU,GR,CZ,NO,NL,I,CH) 4 IU
Humatrope (US,MX) 5 mg solution
Humatrope (G,DK,ES,GB,FI,NL,NO,GR,CH) 16 IU
Humatrope (ES) 72 IU
Novo / Nordisk Norditropin (PL,DK,A,ES,I,NO,HU,BG,MX) 4 IU
Norditropin (G,FI,HU,DK,B,PL,CH,GB, NO,ES,NL,BG,CZ,MX,GR) 12 IU
Norditropin (CZ,HU,FI,GR,NO,A,ES,DK,NL) 24 IU
Norditropin Pen Set (G) 24 IU
Pharma Genotropin (MX) 4 IU
Russian (unknown) Somatotropin (Russia) 4 IU
Serono Saizen (G,CH,ES) 2 IU
Saizen (G,A,CH,ES,I,GB,GR, FI,HU,FR,S,CZ,MX) 4 IU
Saizen (S,FI,GB,CH,CZ,HU,FR,ES,MX) 10 IU
Serostim (US) 4, 5 or 6 mg
BR - when I have time later I'll go through my studies, but it is definitley referenced in a few of them :wg:
sorry no link or evidence for it,its all hear say and self experimenting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluerain
-rodge
Jerzey you always have so much great documented info.
Where was that research from??? The reason I ask is b/c it said 2 things that I never agreed with. One, that person said he has never seen HGH increase muscle mass at all. The other was that it was said to spot reduce BF.
IMO opinion I have never experienced a spot reducing BF, and as far as Muscle mass increase I'm sure most of us take it for that reason. I have ran GH w/ just T3 alone before and have gained LBM.
Has anyone ever experienced a spot reduced BF??? I always inject in my lower abdomen and that area never seems to diminish unless it's w/ a restricted diet and cardio.
Just for the record Jerzey I think that you have some of the best posts, especially when it comes to documented research. I'm not challenging your post, just asking if anyone else has experienced something I havent.
NANDI (RIP brother) wrote a lot about it at CEM .... intersting stuff. But I do bascially I agree with rodge. Real life experience does not always correlate with the theory :)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1295815
[QUOTE]: Horm Res. 1992;38 Suppl 1:63-7. Related Articles, Links
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1619991Quote:
Thyroid function during growth hormone therapy.
Jorgensen JO, Moller J, Skakkebaek NE, Weeke J, Christiansen JS.
Medical Department M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus Kommunehospital, Denmark.
Administration of growth hormone (GH) in GH-deficient patients has been reported to cause a variety of perturbations in thyroid function. Reports range from decreased sensitivity of thyrotropin (TSH) to thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH) stimulation and induction of hypothyroidism to increased energy expenditure and enhanced peripheral thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) conversion. Some of the diversities may relate to the fact that earlier studies were uncontrolled case reports, which furthermore employed pituitary GH preparations, which may have been contaminated with TSH. A confounding variable in terms of incipient TSH insufficiency in some patients may also have been present. Data from a placebo-controlled crossover study of 4-months GH therapy in GH-deficient adults, some of whom were on ongoing T4 substitution, revealed that the most prominent effect on thyroid function was increased peripheral T4 to T3 conversion without significantly affecting TSH levels or secretion from the thyroid gland. It was furthermore observed that T3 levels during placebo were significantly decreased compared to an untreated healthy control group. Comparable findings have been made in a controlled study of 6-months GH therapy in adult-onset GH-deficient patients. More recent data suggest that these effects prevail after long-term (16 months) therapy. Similar findings have also been reported in healthy subjects receiving pharmacological GH doses. It is likely that this effect is not caused by GH per se inasmuch as reduced T4 to T3 conversion is a common observation in catabolic states with concomitant GH hypersecretion. It remains to be shown whether insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) stimulates peripheral deiodination.
Quote:
Effects of growth hormone administration on fuel oxidation and thyroid function in normal man.
Moller J, Jorgensen JO, Moller N, Christiansen JS, Weeke J.
University Department of Internal Medicine and Endocrinology, Aarhus Kommunehospital, Denmark.
In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study, we examined the effects of 14 days of growth hormone (GH) administration (12 IU/d subcutaneously) on energy expenditure (EE), respiratory exchange ratio (RER), and thyroid function in 14 normal adults of normal weight (eight men and six women). EE (kcal/24 h) was significantly elevated after GH administration (2,073 +/- 392, [GH], 1,900 +/- 310, [placebo], P = .01). RER was significantly lowered during GH administration (0.73 +/- 0.04 v 0.78 +/- 0.06, P = .02), reflecting increased oxidation of lipids. Total triiodothyronine (TT3) (nmol/L) and free T3 (FT3) (pmol/L) increased significantly during GH (TT3: 1.73 +/- 0.06 [GH], 1.48 +/- 0.08 [placebo], P = .01; FT3: 6.19 +/- 0.56 [GH], 5.49 +/- 0.56 [placebo], P = .01). Concomitantly, an insignificant decrease in reverse T3 (rT3) (nmol/L) was observed (0.07 +/- 0.01 [GH], 0.15 +/- 0.01 [placebo], P = .08). GH caused a highly significant increase in T3/thyroxine (T4) (x 100) ratio (1.84 +/- 0.12 [GH], 1.37 +/- 0.06 [placebo]). Serum thyrotropin (TSH) was not significantly changed by GH. No changes in total thyroxine (TT4) (nmol/L) (98 +/- 6 [GH], 111 +/- 8 [placebo], P = .40) and free thyroxine (FT4) (pmol/L) (17.4 +/- 1.3 [GH], 18.6 +/- 1.1 [placebo], P = .37) after 14 days of GH administration were observed. In conclusion, 2 weeks of GH administration increases EE and lipidoxidation. This finding may partly be mediated by an increase in peripheral T4 to T3 conversion
Thanks Girl!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerzey
Yes, alot of what I read mentions T-3 used with HGH increases your metabolism (great for fat loss ) but no mention that HGH actually decreases normal production.
Thanks again :wg:
Blue
Yes I heard the same but just trying to see if any actual studies were done stating HGH actually lower's normal production.Quote:
Originally Posted by rodge nl.
I know it's a great combo (T-3/HGH) for fat loss tho!
Thanks Ridge : )
Blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEITH187
Yes it does eat muscle and fat .I might go with T4 as it doesn't eat muscle the way T3 does. The T4 will convert to T3 over time but from what I understand it won't eat the muscle like T3..well, not as bad as T3.
Blue
............................Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhova16
nope,
I have experienced with my clients at 4-8 ius ed long time but nope.
OBJECTIVITY-TRUTH-NEUTRALITY.
I accidently got that instead of T3 (then re-ordered T3).. I never used it though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluerain
Let me see what I can find tonight, I have to go through my computer and all the HGH info. I have saved...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluerain
Off topic...but what happened to the avatar Jerzey?The eagle just isn't working for me...oh well,nothing I can do but..:cry:
:cry: ~Pinnacle~:cry:
I don't have any documented proof to back this up but I was concerned about the the possibility that HGH would reduce my T3 count. When I had my blood tested my doctor told me that my all of my thyroid numbers were spot on. That was after 10 weeks of 2iu's 5/2. I will have the values checked again at the 20 week mark to see but I so far I haven't seen a reduction in T3.
This isn't to say that the combination of HGH/T3 won't work well but the original post asked about the effects of HGH on T3 levels. As Rodge said, I don't have the documentation that Jerzey has only what the hormone has done to my body.
I hope this helps.
Thanks for your time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinnacle
men ! she, now flies !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhova16
The structure of that looks like BigCat's profile from BB.com...I don't know though...I just skimmed it.
As for GH with T3, it's sort of Counter-productive in terms of trying to gain muscle (but not for Losing fat) which is why I reccomend that it be taken in conjunction with AAS (and insulin, etc....), if you run both of them together and are looking for more than just fat loss:Quote:
I have ran GH w/ just T3 alone before and have gained LBM.
J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9.
Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.
Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.
BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized.
METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h.
RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h).
CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.
Thanks for the post Hooker.I've read and heard similar,that's why I never run T3 with HGH.I'm not using HGH for fat loss,so I see no need to run T3.If I want to run drugs for fat loss,there are many cheaper alternatives than HGH.
~Pinnacle~
Hooker - Have you run GH, t3, slin & AAS together? If so, what were your resutls?
"Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance."
So what exactly does this mean from above? Should those of using T3 with HGH drop the T3 and use when where off hgh?
Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance.
I run 2IU 6/1 with 40mcgs of T3.. I added the T3 to help burn fat.. I'm using the HGH for antiaging and slight anabolic effects ( been thinking about runnin primo ).. I've been eating right and working out and the fat had been coming off and retaining good muscle definition, slightly stronger and more defined..
10 months ago I was in really poor shape, tired all the time, no exercise, way to high BF%, slightly high BP, elevate liver enzymes ( too much xanax and liquor )...
now I dont take xanax almost ever ( only on flights over 5 hours.. i travel a lot over 200k miles a year in year), i feel great, look a lot better but have a long ways to go still.. lifetime commitment right :>
MacDad
Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle Junk
I don't really pay anything for AAS, and I get T3 and mostly all Ancillary Compounds (Nolvadex, Arimidex) at manufacturers cost.
SO while I've run Slin + T3 + AAS, I can't really justify the cost of buying HGH or IGF, when a 20 week cycle of AAS/Ancillaries/or-Whatever-I-Want is about $20.
IGF and HGH are two things that I just don't need, for the cost, and given my current level of development (I don't want to ever get over 205 or so, with single digit bf, which is easily maintainable for me at 5'7", all year round).
bump