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whats the reasoning behind the 5 on 2 off...cost???make the kits last longer....i would think takin it everyday would be better in the long run....kinda like takin winny everyday is better than everyother day....whats the reason for the 5 on 2 off and is it the same or better?
Yes..it's totally financially motivated(5 on/2 off).I run 6 on/1 off.Shortly I'll be running it 7 days straight. May goals have changed,so I need to up the ante,so to speak.After I get to where I'm going,I take the less financially incapacitating route(6 on/1 off).
~Pinnacle~
im looking to gain good solid lean muscle...about 15 pounds while also cutting down on fat....pinnacle my question is how many IU's a day is what i said on my other post a good amount 3iu a day for the first month then 4 then 5 the rest of the way?
I think that's a good way to go about dosing your HGH.BUT..I take a rather aggressive approach to running cycles.So if it were me,I'd run the 3 iu's the first 6 weeks,then bump it right to 5 iu's.If you get sides(which are unlikely at 5 iu's after 6 wks at 3)you can drop the dose to 4 iu's if necessary.I by no means am telling you to run it like this,but if you're feeling good ect.It's something to think about.Quote:
Originally Posted by JUICEMONKEY2005
~Pinnacle~
pinnacle one more question...people have been telling my friend and i to start the test when we start the GH or before...what is their reasoning for this???is there any gain
There is nothing wrong with running it like that.I just like to have the hgh in effect when the Test starts to kick in.Synergy between the two drugs is what gives the great gains.If you ran it like your friends say to,the HGH won't even be kicking in til after your 10 cycle is over.It takes 3 mos for HGH to be in full effect.That's why I suggested starting it at the 2 month mark.Synergy!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JUICEMONKEY2005
~Pinnacle~
What exactly is synergy between the two?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinnacle
Also it is nice to have a month or two of HGH left when you finish the TEST to help fight catabolism during your PCT.
Duchaine said it more naturally mimiced the pulse pattern of natural GH release dueing adolescence. I guess it does, moreso than just going straight through, but 1on/1off is better, in that regard (when doses are the same).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker
Are you saying 1 on\1off is better than doing 7 days on for results? I have never known anyone that has done 1 on/1off, do you personally do this or know of people who use this approach?
goose4....
bump for hooker.. ya can't make a statement like that and just leave us hanging..Quote:
Originally Posted by goose4
There was a study do on adolescences, that showed, for example 2iu ed or 4iu eod, worked better. But the problem with applying it to us, is our growth plates are close. If I remember right, the study was about linear growth.
But if there's some other info that would apply to us, I'd like to read it.
JohnnyB
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayker
I'm not trying to take Pinnacles Thunder in any way. But IMO what is being said is that the 2 will be working together at them same time. Obviously synergy means "working together" in shorter terms. So when the Gh starts to kick in your AAS will start kicking in. That is the exact definition of synergy.
To answer you question Sayker, thats why a lot of bro's on here say to run Gh for 6-9months. I'm running a 9 month cycle of GH. Started 3 months prior th AAS, running AAS for 4 months, then I will still have 2 months left for GH only.
Obviously thats not the only reason to run GH for that long but that definitely is one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker
BUMP for this as well.
I have read a bit by Dan Duchaine and have to say that he was an intelligent man, God Rest his soul. Would love to hear more.
I just Remembered,I know this lady in my gym who does 1on 1off, only because she finds no sides with this method.
goose4.....
Here's the post or study
Originally posted by junk at EF. I think some of you here may be interested in reading it.
EOD GH injections are better!..... study says
A very thorough well controlled 4 year study published on
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 87, No.8 3573-3577
clearly shows every other day (EOD) hGH injections to be much more beneficial in the long run to everyday injections. Everyday injections seems to drastically lower your body's sensitivity to it's own GH secretion. The study included children with idiopathic short stature, but can be ever casting on us, normal non-deficient hGH individuals who may use hGH periodically for bodybuilding, sports and health purposes.
The 38 children were divided into 2 groups:
Group I received daily hGH injections.
Group II received alternate day hGH injections.
It is important to note that the total weekly dosage of hGH was the same for both groups.
Both groups received the hGH therapy contiguously for 2 years.
Their natural growth was followed for an additional 2 years after hGH therapy ended. They were all measured at 3-month intervals during the 4 years period (2 years with hGH therapy and 2 years after). Their Serum GH was measured by double antibody RIA kit.
During hGH therapy, both groups accelerated their growth substantially.
Group I receiving the daily hGH injections first & second year velocity was 3.4 and 2.3 SD Group II receiving the alternate hGH inj. had 3.0 and 2.0 SD for first and second year respectively.
Over the initial 6 months after withdrawal of therapy, growth velocity decelerated to a low nadir -3.9 SD score for the daily therapy group, whereas it decelerated in the alternate day group to only -0.2 SD score.
During the 2 years off therapy, the later group (taking EOD injections)
maintained growth rates of -0.2 to -1.2 SD score, which is similar to their SD score prior to the hGH treatment. The daily group also recovered but very slowly, on the fourth semiannual evaluation off therapy. The cumulative 4-year growth velocity (2yrs on and 2 yrs off therapy) of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily therapy group (mean, 0.9 vs. 0.3 SD score).
At the end of the 4-yr therapy period, the adult height prediction of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily group by a mea of 6.5cm (that's over 2.5" in height, quite a lot of difference)
In even simpler English, to translate what it may mean to us is that using hGH everyday will only negligibly give better short-term results. Yet using alternate day hGH will give radically better long-term results and much better recovery. As the body may get back to homeostasis much faster.
Remember the two groups got the same weekly total hGH dosage,
so your every other day hGH injections would be twice as if you used
it every day.
The researchers said, the dose was of less impotency than the schedule of the injections. Daily hGH therapy for 3 years caused subnormal growth persisting for 1.5 years (very bad)
It may be that the problem is not enough hGH or IGF-1 secretion but rather
the body's decreased sensitivity to it. The interesting part is that the serum GH levels and serum IGF-I and IGF-binding protein remained unaffected or relatively mutely affected. Even your body's endogenous pulsatile secretion of GH resumes within just days even after long-term hGH therapy.
The researchers hypothesis is that the tolerance may be in the "GH signal transduction in selective target organs in response to the disappearance of the unique pulsatile pattern of serum GH during GH therapy". You see, hGH taken via sc injections do not imitate the your body's own GH secretion.
"Indeed, daily sc administration of GH results in an unphysiological serum GH profile, with peak levels at 4 h and a slow decline over the course of the following 12–24 h. This pattern can be regarded as continuous administration, rather than the physiological GH pulses, with a frequency of about eight per day."
"Assuming that the withdrawal syndrome is related to tolerance that might have developed toward hGH or IGF-I, we tried to prevent it by alternate day treatment. Moreover, hGH doses used in therapy often stimulate IGF-I to supraphysiological serum levels, suggesting that target tissues IGF-I may also be higher than normal. The mechanism seems, therefore, to rest with hGH and IGF-I action at their target tissues. We now show that alternate day therapy
with hGH in children with an intact GH-IGF-I axis prevents the withdrawal syndrome"
Researchers mark the analogy to another endocrine tolerance and withdrawal syndrome:
"alternate day therapy with glucocoricoids prevents tolerance to that hormone to a substantial degree, "Interestingly, glucocoricoids withdrawal syndrome can also occur while the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is intact (8), indicating that tolerance to glucocoricoids has developed
at the target organ level (9). "
An example of a good safe protocol to follow in my opinion could be
hGH taken for 4 months (16 weeks) or more at 8IU every other day,
split to 4IU three hours after waking up (say 11:00am)
and another 4IU taken 4 hours later (say 3:00pm).
This approach is quite conservative and may be optimal.
Obviously, you may extend past 4months, and take more IUs per day.
This approach goes with 8IU EOD, so it is equivalent to folks that would
otherwise go with 4IU ED, which is what most do.
There is some controversy as to how many of these IUs the body
can utilize at once
Obviously, there are lot of studies, some better conducted, some less.
Lots of opinions and doctrines in endocrinology, bodybuilding etc..
So you should make your own decision, I guess old individuals on
hGH for life would not mind, as no rebound would affect them. Professional
bodybuilders probably wouldn't mind as well.
I would rather follow a protocol like this. For most part due to the
nasty rebound that I could get after withdrawing from long-term ED hGH treatment.
Nothing worse then look awesome, stop hGH then after several months having:
Low body sensitivity to your own body's GH.
Slow recovery
Decline in resting cardiac output
Increase fat mass
Decrease in metabolic rate
Negative nitrogen balance, phosphorus, sodium and potassium.
Again, I said "could" not "would", because this study cannot absolutely manifest
our use of hGH. Moreso, we are not children, we are not idiopathic hGH deficient
and not aGHD. But since the weekly dosages do remain the same as well as the
duration of the hGH usage. Just changing to the EOD protocol from the well
hyped everyday inj protocol is worth in my honest opinion. It seems statistically
a better bet, with more chance to win, than loose as opposed to the ED protocol.
I just tried to summarize the findings of the study, which was by the way,
a pleasure to read as the study is well written and was prepared by
Dr Hochberg, MD, a renowned well respected figure in endocrinology.
You can read the full article with all the graphs and details here:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/87/8/3573
With references to 23 studies.
Here's the abstract from the study
Prevention of Growth Deceleration after Withdrawal of Growth Hormone Therapy in Idiopathic Short Stature
Meir Lampit and Ze’ev Hochberg
Department of Pediatrics, Meyer Children’s Hospital, Haifa 31096, Israel
Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Ze’ev Hochberg, Division of Pediatric Endocrinology, Meyer Children’s Hospital, P.O. Box 9602, Haifa 31096, Israel. E-mail: . [email protected]
Abstract
The treatment of children with idiopathic short stature by daily injections of human GH (hGH) is followed after its withdrawal by a growth deceleration with normal serum GH and IGF-I levels. The present study was designed to understand and prevent growth deceleration. We hypothesized that this phenomenon is due to tolerance at the target organ level, that tolerance develops in response to the unphysiological pharmacokinetics of daily-injected hGH, and that alternate day hGH therapy will prevent it. Thirty-eight prepubertal children with idiopathic short stature, aged 3.3–9.0 yr, were studied. Their heights were less than -2 SD score, growth rate was above the 10th percentile for age, bone age was less than 75% of chronological age, and the stimulated serum GH concentration was greater than 10 µg/liter. The children were matched for sex, height, and growth velocity SD score to receive daily or alternate day hGH at the same weekly dose of 6 mg/m2 for a period of 2 yr. The 1st and 2nd year mean growth velocities were 3.4 and 2.3 SD score for the daily therapy group and 3.0 and 2.0 SD score for the alternate day group, respectively (P = NS). Over the initial 6 months after withdrawal of therapy, and growth velocity decelerated to a nadir of -3.9 SD score in the daily therapy group, whereas it decelerated in the alternate day group to only -0.2 SD score (P < 0.01). Over the entire 2 yr off therapy the latter group maintained mean growth rates of -0.2 to -1.2 SD score, similar to their pretreatment velocities. The daily group recovered slowly to resume their mean pretreatment rate only on the fourth semiannual evaluation off therapy. The cumulative 4-yr growth velocity (2 yr on and 2 yr off therapy) of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily therapy group (mean, 0.9 vs. 0.3 SD score; P < 0.002). At the end of the 4-yr therapy period, the adult height prediction of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily group by a mean 6.5 cm (P = 0.06). It is concluded that growth deceleration after withdrawal of hGH therapy in idiopathic short stature is due to tolerance to GH and IGF-I in response to the unphysiological pharmacokinetics of daily-injected hGH and that alternate day therapy allows for an alternate day physiological GH profile, thus preventing tolerance during therapy and growth deceleration thereafter.
JohnnyB
JohnnyB- I know your not a big fan of HGH,like many,even the great lee preist, just Curios to know when you ran it, length of cycle? dose? 5-2?
goose4.....
Last night I was having in in depth discussion with OMEGA on msn in regards to IGF.The conversation turned to HGH.He said his doctor feels that running HGH longer than an 8 mos cycle could create recovery issues with the pituitary axis.In turn recommended him to run 8 mos on/4 off.I haven't seen any studies done on adult males in regards to long HGH cycles and recovery of pituitry axis.I'd like to see one if there is such a study,since I've been on for quite some time.Not that I'm coming off anytime soon,or even at all.Just more of an educational type thing for me.
~Pinnacle~
Ok lets say,I do screw up my pituitary axis with Excessive long term and high dosage what will be the damage and long term side effects?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinnacle
Goose, I will take a shot at this so that someone can correct me if I'm wrong because I've wonder the same thing.
Awhile back there was a study posted by Jerzey, I think, that stated that the problem with long term HGH use was down regulation of the receptor cells as opposed to suppression. By definition that would mean that if you were to come off of HGH after long term high dose usage, your body would go back to making its 1 iu a day and it wouldn't have any effect on you body at all. Basically, your cells would need more GH to accomplish the same thing.
Again, I've wondered about this myself and this is the way that I understand it. If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me.
I've run it 3 times, 6 months twice, 9 months once, on the last one, I got up to 4iu. The last time was about 6 or more months ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by goose4
I do have low HGH/IGF-1 so if I can ever find the right doc, I could get HGH with only paying a co-pay, when that happens I run it again, I just won't pay more then a co-pay for it again. We'll se what happens then;)
JohnnyB
There's some info on kids taking it for 2 years in my GH profile...it's going to probably be very similar, in terms of how the kids avoided whatever inhibition they were able to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinnacle
Also, I'd be wary about talking to Omega about a product he sells. In the end, he's still working, and you need to remember that. I own a Ford, and my Ford dealer would talk to me all day about it if I let him....because he wants me to buy another (which I will).
It's also why I generally reccomend PM'ing someone you trust about gear, asking if it's fake or legit, rather than posting pics. Generally, who has the most gear? Sources. Who stands to gain by telling someone if something is fake (*or real)? Sources. Who answers most questions in most Pic forums, and posts the most "real" or "legit" pics? Sources. And thats a fact. Remember to weigh evidence against what people could (or do) have to gain from giving it, or how falsifying it can help them.
Granted, I'm at "work" too. I post, basically, because my "product" is writing about AAS....but in my case, the higher the quality of answer, and the more accurate it is, the more it's worth to me and you. I can't "scam" information, remember. You can check all of my references, all the time...or look at my pics (pic forum), and see where I am, physically, if that (for some reason) has bearing for you.
Well...yeah, Jerzey used to do that and found it better that way. I've gotten together with her a few times, and never thought she showed any GH-sides (bloating, etc..).Quote:
Originally Posted by goose4
Anyway, that method (1/1) is examined in my GH-profile, with all the relevant data summarized and some charts and shit.
I understand totally what you're saying Hooker.In general we were discussing our experiences with IGF and what's the best protocol for running Higher doses.
He's very much aware of the fact I use MR's product.There wasn't the slightest suggestion to buy/use his product.
I do very much appreciate your input!!!I,like everyone else on this board,totally appreciate the time/dedication you have to making this board the best on the Net.That I can not stress enough!!
And yes,I did see your pics!You look fantastic.Not that it really matters much to me.You could be a fat,greasy pig for all I care.The information you share says more about you than any picture possibly could.
My respect-
~Pinnacle~
after reading through all this i see that some are not high on HGH...why is this...is it the price or the lack of the big time gains seen on test and deca cycles...i thought to get abnormal gains u need to take absurd amounts like 10-12 ius a day and for moderate gains around 4-6....am i wrong am i better off goin with a test and winny again...im more confused now i think?
Both!Money being playing a role,as where lack of gains are as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by JUICEMONKEY2005
It's not a mass drug by any means.It does work well with Testosterone,but it's not a miracle drug by any means.If you're looking for gains,you might as well stick with anabolics and save your cash for food.
~Pinnacle~
well, i am running my 2nd cycle now.. and yes i'm older, i notice changes quickly, and i like it..
this is the 1st time running it on cycle.. and i like it even more.. ...
hows that for a study..
by the by... 5/2 after 2 months of 6/1.. currently running 4iu.. going to 6iu for the last 3 months..