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Thread: Chinese HGH concerns

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    Exclamation Chinese HGH concerns

    As we are all aware the global market for human growth hormone is worth millions if not billions of dollars and because of this is attracts the attention of the more unscrupulous amongst our community.

    In the past people have been sold HCG believing it to be HGH, let’s face it, to the beginner or novice it looks the same or very similar, you reconstitute it and can inject it just like you do with HGH. One big difference is the price, HCG is much cheaper to produce than HGH and therefore to the guy who wants to make a quick buck it becomes very appealing. Luckily for us it’s easy to test for HCG using a pregnancy test, put some of the water on the test and if it shows a positive result then voila! You have HCG.

    So what are the fakers trying to pass off as HGH these days? Well they are certainly selling us freeze dried AI’s, these compounds will strip the body of it estrogen and that will make you loose some water and become ‘leaner’. This can often fool the user into thinking they have lost BF and increased lean muscle, and as most people run AAS with their HGH they won’t have a clue that what they are taking is a million miles from what they thought they have spent their hard earned cash on because their estrogen levels would of been raised by the AAS anyway. The problems arise here when you come off the AI and get a massive estrogen rebound, and then you will know for sure you have been deceived.

    Ok so how can we tell that we have real HGH without sending to the lab to be tested and also not testing it on yourself?

    The answer to this question is quite simple and anyone can do it. When you reconstitute your HGH (or what you think is HGH) you need to watch how it dissolves when it comes into contact with the water. Does it disappear instantly? If so then I doubt very much that you have HGH, what you want to be seeing are a few white flakes at the bottom of the vial which remain, you then need to gently swirl the bottle around until the disappear, this could take 30 seconds or more and is a very good indicator that what you have is real HGH, or what we commonly believe to be HGH...Update. It seems that the Chinese are able to create a substance that dissolves like HGH so beware that the remaining flakes are not always a sigh that your HGH is g2g.

    As we know the positive effects of HGH such as fat loss and muscle gain take a long time to begin to show and it is because of this that we often rely on the side effects such as bloat and CTS to give us the reassurance that our HGH is real. One of my major concerns is that the counterfeiters may be one step ahead of us here, HGH is not only very expensive to produce it’s also very difficult and must be done in controlled lab conditions. This leads me on to what may be a huge undiscovered scam in the world of HGH, I am going to point the finger at China because that is where the vast majority of HGH used by ‘us’ comes from and they are probably the worlds number one counterfeiting nation.

    I believe that there are many drugs available that will cause the body to retain water but not so many that will cause CTS and I only know one that will cause both, HGH. However let’s not be naive here, the Chinese may be producing a drug that reconstitutes like HGH and causes the same side effects as HGH but without the benefits and I believe that they may be fooling many thousands of unsuspecting users all around the world. If this is happening then we need to help eachother and to do this we need everybody who is using ‘black market’ HGH to share their results with us on this thread.

    Have you been using HGH for a while and experiencing the side effects but not seeing any benefits?

    Have you or are you experiencing bloat but no CTS? If so are you seeing fat loss and muscle gain?

    Please share your experiences guys and girls, this is imporatnt so we can all be at ease about what we are putting into our bodies.
    Last edited by Xtralarg; 08-01-2010 at 03:03 AM. Reason: Updating
    -XL

    jing jai

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    Well done.

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    Great idea mate.
    This is exactly the type of info that I need as I have yet to purchase hgh and when the time finally comes I do not want to be mislead into paying for something other than the real thing. It's a shame that people go out and work hard and even make sacrafice's in life and their are people out their abusing their trust and abusing their position. This seem's to be the world we live in now and we need keep of to speed with the people trying to scam us. I myself have been scammed in the past with AAS because I never took the time to research on this board. I learned the hard way but we learn by our mistake's.

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    After all the research I've done, my own personal experience as well as my "gut" feeling, I have come to the conclusion that very little of the HGH coming out of China is actual HGH.

    I just don't see these pharm companies selling all this HGH out of their back doors at such low prices. Keep in mind, they'd be selling to a distributor who is going to be getting their own profit. So take the amount you're spending on HGH and then factor in the cut that the distributor is taking and then the cut that the pharm company is taking and how much could possibly be left over to cover the actual manufacturing costs?

    The next indicator is that almost every "name brand" from China all have 2-5 websites all claiming to be "the real one", often with their own serial number verification database. If one of the sites is actually the authentic one, then what are we getting with the non-authentic ones? Take the name of your HGH and add .net, .com, .cn, .cn.com, .com.cn, etc and you will probably come up with a website for each of them.

    Lastly, while there are some people who have posted logs that show good results from HGH use, they are pretty few and far between. The main problem is how long results from HGH are expected to take and how many people combine HGH use with AA cycles. There is probably also a placebo effect from HGH that inspires you to work out harder, do more cardio or clean up your diet to "get the most from it", which makes it difficult to pinpoint where any results actually come from.

    I have yet to find any photo logs showing the results of strictly HGH use over time. I know AA use is much more prevelant, and thus why there is so much more of the "before and after" photos, but even for random supplements and the like, you can usually find this sort of thing.

    Even an IGF-1 test is not necessarily an accurate way of testing the more I think about it. IGF LR3 is significantly cheaper to produce than HGH and will likewise increase your IGF levels and from what I've seen, looks exactly the same as HGH. There may be other things that will raise your IGF-1 levels as well.

    Remember, China is the counterfeit capital of the world with an estimated 60 billion in piracy/counterfeiting a year. It's naive to think we're getting legit goods considering the prices being paid.

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    Can the Chinese be trusted? well they are the biggest counterfeiters in the world, they even poison their own to make money and they even produce and sell chemically produce eggs so can they be trusted!! it makes me laugh when i hear Blue tops are great, green tops are good to go and my Orange tops are very powefull, come on they are just coloured tops and anything could be inside those bottles.

    The problem we have is that hgh results are very slow and many could well be fooled by the results of their cycles (AAS) they are using while running their GH, if the Chinese could mimic CTS and fill you with bloat and the numbness feeling then no one here would truly know they had fake. The only true way to finding out if your supplier is selling you 100% gh is to get it lab tested and who ever does that?

    I remember years ago I was buying GH pens from a pharm in Spain and they were so expensive it was nearly impossible to run gh but the results were amazing, now was this just the right time for me to transform or was the gh a lot superior than the Chinese stuff floating around today. One thing is for sure there are various qualities of gh coming out of China and I feel its a hit or miss scenario.

    Does anyone have a lab were GH can be tested because I am up for sending some to get it tested?
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    Great post Xlarg. In a recent post I sought opinions re: legitimacy of chinese product. I have used hgh since 2002 and made the switch from us product shooting with the pen to chinese product (the brand is no longer available) in 2005. Up until late 2007 chinese product was consistent, since it has been questionable.

    I am happy to report that my current products, nd blues and also green tops do take a good 20-30 seconds to swirl and dissolve and are packed under vacuum, besides the sides which are very good indicators as well, I currently use 5 iu's per day and at 48, I am enjoying tremendous benefits and hope I can keep finding the same supplier or else I'll have to bite the bullet and go back to the clinic here in So. Cal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    Can the Chinese be trusted?
    Does anyone have a lab were GH can be tested because I am up for sending some to get it tested?
    I will also. Years ago I think there was a lab posted, but I didn't take down info. It was sorta expensive but I'm definetely down to sending in my current products for testing........of course what we test now may not be what we get later as you mentioned colors of tops can be switched easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spicyer View Post
    I will also. Years ago I think there was a lab posted, but I didn't take down info. It was sorta expensive but I'm definetely down to sending in my current products for testing........of course what we test now may not be what we get later as you mentioned colors of tops can be switched easily.
    The lab doesnt longer trade if I am thinking of the same one you are.
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    Ok so after doing more research on this subject I discover that excessive water retention can in fact cause CTS, so this then makes me think that it will be all to easy for China to produce a drug which you inject to give you all the sides associated with HGH when in fact it is rubbish.

    Conclusion

    In order to be sure that what you are injecting is real HGH you need to get it tested in a lab.
    -XL

    jing jai

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    We need to open our eyes here guys and find out if we are being ripped off or not, I stongly suspect that China is laughing at us whilst their banks are overflowing with $$$$$$$$$ from the west.

    Can anyone reccomend a lab that can test HGH?
    -XL

    jing jai

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtralarg View Post
    Ok so after doing more research on this subject I discover that excessive water retention can in fact cause CTS, so this then makes me think that it will be all to easy for China to produce a drug which you inject to give you all the sides associated with HGH when in fact it is rubbish.

    Conclusion

    In order to be sure that what you are injecting is real HGH you need to get it tested in a lab.
    Just thinking out load here XL, i know we get our pins and barrels from a needle exchange and they do blood tests, all free of course.. Do you reckon they may do lab tests??? Just an idea....
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    Great post...

    I just got some hgh I took a pic the day I started (July 1) and I will take 1 every month.. I will start the AAS cycle 2 months into my hgh cycle..

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    Quote Originally Posted by 007 View Post
    Just thinking out load here XL, i know we get our pins and barrels from a needle exchange and they do blood tests, all free of course.. Do you reckon they may do lab tests??? Just an idea....
    I doubt it, I have found a lab which I can send my gh to for testing, further suggestions are welcome though.
    -XL

    jing jai

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    China can easily produce the sides of GH by giving you an antidiuretic hormone what looks like GH, this will give you water retention which will give you CTS, now if you couple this with the aas cycle and re-designed diet and increased cardio and you will convince yourself you have 100% gh. You buy cheap GH you are running the risk of getting fake IMHO.

    When I bought Pharm grade GH my results and gains are alot different then when I use Chinese GH, kind of speaks volumes really but we are all driven by the cheap price and we convince ourselfs we have genuine gh because of the sides but if you compare them with Pharm grade you will notice a huge difference IMHO.
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    So where can we get our HGH tested? How much does it cost? I would think if it's reasonable it would be wise to get it tested.

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    Does anyone know if srcs labs is still going?
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    I'll be more than glad to contribute to this post. Just started ND Blue tops a week ago. I went with 5ius right off the bat. Running it 5/2 off. So far not feeling any joint pain or headaches however, I am a little bit more lethargic than usual. When I reconstitute the powder the majority of it dissolves instantly with the exception of a few white flakes that are stuck on the bottom of the vial. They seemed to be vacuum sealed because when I stick my insulin pin in it sucks the bac water out of the needle slowly.

    I'm no stranger to gh, but this is my first time using Chinese generics. The last batch I had was a premixed solution from a ug lab, and after four months of using them I really liked the way it made me feel. The only downside to those was that I broke one of the vials causing me to end my cycle shorter than expected.

    I have six months of these nd blue tops on hand, and I am planning on running gh fo a year straight this time around. Like I mentioned before, I will keep you guys posted as soon as I get some blood work done, and let you know about any changes that I notice in my body.

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    Photo of my current blue tops:



    Photo of the previous GH I used at the beginning of the year:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtralarg View Post
    Ok so after doing more research on this subject I discover that excessive water retention can in fact cause CTS, so this then makes me think that it will be all to easy for China to produce a drug which you inject to give you all the sides associated with HGH when in fact it is rubbish.

    Conclusion

    In order to be sure that what you are injecting is real HGH you need to get it tested in a lab.
    sorry man but i think there's another way too, much cheaper and easier.

    hgh reconstituted is also called somatropin which is equal to our own endogenous somatotropin.
    so, if what we inject is real, a simple blood work checking somatotropin would reveal if the somatropin pinned was real or not.

    by the way, great thread.

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    Where can you get a somatropin test done though? I don't think it's very common, and thus probably expensive to have done if you can find somewhere that even can test for it.

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    I have known my source since high school (8 yr ago or so.) And everything I ever got from them was legit up until today. I always got AAS from them but never HGH so when I first got Kefeis from my source I wAsnt 100 percent sure of it's authenticity because i knew that there is a lot of fake hgh out there. It mixed just like described by you guys but takes over 60 seconds for the flakes on the bottom to dissolve, when I climbed over 3iu I got really bloated and even my BP spiked, also CTS. It was a strong sign that they were the real deal plus I do trust my source. I am gonna find a pic from the net of the kefei's and I want to point out that it comes with a lil silver kefei sticker sealing the box and it should be intact, once u take it out it;s easy to notice that has been opened (like a seal sticker made to get damaged once removed).

    I have switched to hyge now and I know for sure it's legit, I like how it's packed on vacuum and has neat packaging with a scratch off seal to verify authenticity. It's easy to tell that it has been manufactured to a much higher standard when compared to kefeis.... I hope the results are better 2. Will know soon. Also the hyge have a new design on the anti fake sticker and it's a scratch off.

    I do like what HGH has done to me in the past 6 months. Helped break through 185 (I have a small frame and my natural weight was 135 before i started dedicating myself to the gym).. I am off cycle now and I am 188 which is unheard of for me. And I am still gaining. Leaner than ever and feel like a 18 yr old. THe mood boost is very obvious.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese HGH concerns-kefei100iu.jpg   Chinese HGH concerns-img00095-20100705-2001.jpg   Chinese HGH concerns-img00093-20100705-1959.jpg  
    Last edited by FCVtec; 07-05-2010 at 06:06 PM.

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    Ya, I got some Rips and the outter boxes/labels came seperately, which pretty much was a red flag for me (source claims he gets them straight from the pharm and specifically tells them not to label them so they're easier to ship). Also, the vials don't sit in the plastic trays like I feel they would if they were actually manufactured together.

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    I tried to take the pic that has the batch no. out but couldn t do it.. I don t care that is there but idk if it should. feel free to edit it out if you need 2.

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    I am not an expert man but if there is a seal it probably should be untouched.

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    I buy mine from China. It wasn’t having CTS at the start until I raised my dosage to 8 iu that when I started having signs of CTS. However, from the start I always notice white flakes when I reconstitute.

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    A lot of people say most generics that are legit are under dosed. Usually you will get what you pay for. Just how it is most times. I started getting side effects at 3iu. I know that varies from person to person but at 8iu I imagine there has to be noticeable sides. When I got up to 5iu at first took me months to slowly climb and my hands were super numb and cts was kicking in, super wild dreams also. It was intense until I got used to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rauntu View Post
    So where can we get our HGH tested? How much does it cost? I would think if it's reasonable it would be wise to get it tested.
    I have posted in 3 threads about my concern with Chinese HGH and the sides vs, the results. no one commented on any now i see this. Well as i live in C.A. i can only say I found one in Guatemala that charges $25 to test and i just sent them 2 blue tops from Hong Kong to test. I was told today by a doctor at John Hopkins that there is a lab in Florida that will test for $40 but i will call tomorrow and post back the name and cost when i verify it. My suspicion is that it is HGH, but dose is off, and it is not pure. I have used Saizen for years and never had CTS or other issues, (only 2-3ius a day) but when i switched to china blue tops, got CTS and joint pain, within 6-7 days. Also as i said i have compared the power in an 8mg (24iu) saizen and it is about half of what is in a 10iu china vial.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FCVtec View Post
    I have known my source since high school (8 yr ago or so.) And everything I ever got from them was legit up until today. I always got AAS from them but never HGH so when I first got Kefeis from my source I wAsnt 100 percent sure of it's authenticity because i knew that there is a lot of fake hgh out there. It mixed just like described by you guys but takes over 60 seconds for the flakes on the bottom to dissolve, when I climbed over 3iu I got really bloated and even my BP spiked, also CTS. It was a strong sign that they were the real deal plus I do trust my source. I am gonna find a pic from the net of the kefei's and I want to point out that it comes with a lil silver kefei sticker sealing the box and it should be intact, once u take it out it;s easy to notice that has been opened (like a seal sticker made to get damaged once removed).

    I have switched to hyge now and I know for sure it's legit, I like how it's packed on vacuum and has neat packaging with a scratch off seal to verify authenticity. It's easy to tell that it has been manufactured to a much higher standard when compared to kefeis.... I hope the results are better 2. Will know soon. Also the hyge have a new design on the anti fake sticker and it's a scratch off.

    I do like what HGH has done to me in the past 6 months. Helped break through 185 (I have a small frame and my natural weight was 135 before i started dedicating myself to the gym).. I am off cycle now and I am 188 which is unheard of for me. And I am still gaining. Leaner than ever and feel like a 18 yr old. THe mood boost is very obvious.

    You say you know that your Hyge's are legit and I am not doubting you..but what is funny is that a sponsor on another forum is saying that the H y g e t r o p i n.com.cn site that is on your box in your pic is a fake site selling fake GH...but yet he is selling fake GH.

    Here is the link to that thread...
    http://chemicalmass.com/showthread.php?t=4499

    That sponsor has turned out to be a scam as Frawnz and I and other members can vouch for because we attained Riptropin from that sponsor and it's bunk. There are numerous locked down threads in there GH,IGF forums about it on there in recent days.

    Everyone stay away from Riptropin because it's all junk

    I got no increase in my IGF levels at 10 freakin IU's per day for 2 months and felt nothing at all...no benefits..side effects..nothing...and yes I had a test.

    I don't feel that I am posting a source..but informing everyone of a scammmer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frawnz View Post
    Ya, I got some Rips and the outter boxes/labels came seperately, which pretty much was a red flag for me (source claims he gets them straight from the pharm and specifically tells them not to label them so they're easier to ship). Also, the vials don't sit in the plastic trays like I feel they would if they were actually manufactured together.

    Dude, I did not know he told you this. He told me the opposite. Everything I got was labeled and in trays..but it looked kind of half done.
    Not like it surprises me though considering our end results.

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    Yuuup.

    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfuel7 View Post
    You say you know that your Hyge's are legit and I am not doubting you..but what is funny is that a sponsor on another forum is saying that the H y g e t r o p i n.com.cn site that is on your box in your pic is a fake site selling fake GH...but yet he is selling fake GH.

    Here is the link to that thread...
    http://chemicalmass.com/showthread.php?t=4499

    That sponsor has turned out to be a scam as Frawnz and I and other members can vouch for because we attained Riptropin from that sponsor and it's bunk. There are numerous locked down threads in there GH,IGF forums about it on there in recent days.

    Everyone stay away from Riptropin because it's all junk

    I got no increase in my IGF levels at 10 freakin IU's per day for 2 months and felt nothing at all...no benefits..side effects..nothing...and yes I had a test.

    I don't feel that I am posting a source..but informing everyone of a scammmer.
    those look like pinwheel tops... word about pinwheel tops is that they stopped making those back in 2008. The legit Hyges have 8iu on the tops now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmacgurn View Post
    I have posted in 3 threads about my concern with Chinese HGH and the sides vs, the results. no one commented on any now i see this. Well as i live in C.A. i can only say I found one in Guatemala that charges $25 to test and i just sent them 2 blue tops from Hong Kong to test. I was told today by a doctor at John Hopkins that there is a lab in Florida that will test for $40 but i will call tomorrow and post back the name and cost when i verify it. My suspicion is that it is HGH, but dose is off, and it is not pure. I have used Saizen for years and never had CTS or other issues, (only 2-3ius a day) but when i switched to china blue tops, got CTS and joint pain, within 6-7 days. Also as i said i have compared the power in an 8mg (24iu) saizen and it is about half of what is in a 10iu china vial.
    Very interesting and looks very similar to my findings about Chinese GH, I am coming to the conculsion that many people are being conned by China IMHO.

    Let us know where the lab is for testing
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCamel View Post
    sorry man but i think there's another way too, much cheaper and easier.

    hgh reconstituted is also called somatropin which is equal to our own endogenous somatotropin.
    so, if what we inject is real, a simple blood work checking somatotropin would reveal if the somatropin pinned was real or not.

    by the way, great thread.
    Not going to be easy to test at the right time due to very short half life's and absoprbtion rates differing on methed of administration.

    It would be safer to send your hGH to a lab for testing IMO.
    -XL

    jing jai

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BignBig View Post
    I buy mine from China. It wasn’t having CTS at the start until I raised my dosage to 8 iu that when I started having signs of CTS. However, from the start I always notice white flakes when I reconstitute.
    Any bloat?
    -XL

    jing jai

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    Very interesting and looks very similar to my findings about Chinese GH, I am coming to the conculsion that many people are being conned by China IMHO
    I agree, there is a very high probability that China is fooling the world. We need to get our hGH testd in proper labs so we can get to the bottom of this.
    -XL

    jing jai

  35. #35
    TheCamel is offline Banned - RETARD
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    Quote Originally Posted by frawnz View Post
    Where can you get a somatropin test done though? I don't think it's very common, and thus probably expensive to have done if you can find somewhere that even can test for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xtralarg View Post
    Not going to be easy to test at the right time due to very short half life's and absoprbtion rates differing on methed of administration.

    It would be safer to send your hGH to a lab for testing IMO.
    Guys where do you live, Congo?

    Any lab that can test somatomedin (IGF-1) can also test for somatotropin (HGH). Just hand your wallet...

    Here in Italy it costs around 35 euro to check for somatotropin and I live in Sicily, surely not the most advanced county in Italy, lol.

    Regarding the timing, just do what I have been doing in the last 10 years so get into the lab 30' after your injection, which must be IM.
    In this way, if what pinned was HGH, the result will be beyond the highest level of the lab ranges.

    By the way, I am on HRT since 7 years already and started using steroids when I was 19yo. I accomplished 37 cycles and 3 PCT...
    Currently, I am on HGH from Hygene at 10 iu ed since 7 months.

  36. #36
    bjpennnn's Avatar
    bjpennnn is offline American Psycho
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    i am so confused at this point ha.

  37. #37
    NotSmall is offline English Rudeboy
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    Quote Originally Posted by frawnz View Post
    Ya, I got some Rips and the outter boxes/labels came seperately, which pretty much was a red flag for me (source claims he gets them straight from the pharm and specifically tells them not to label them so they're easier to ship). Also, the vials don't sit in the plastic trays like I feel they would if they were actually manufactured together.
    Quote Originally Posted by fossilfuel7 View Post
    Dude, I did not know he told you this. He told me the opposite. Everything I got was labeled and in trays..but it looked kind of half done.
    Not like it surprises me though considering our end results.
    Frawnz - That is how Riptropin is sent, with the packaging seperate to the vials - a very dubious practise for obvious reasons.

    Fossilfuel - I'd imagine that your source got fed up with people querying the packaging being seperate and decided to label & box them himself and was in a hurry to do so!

    I have been getting all the right sides from my Rips but have wondered for some time if our blind faith in the side effects was unfounded...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotSmall View Post
    Frawnz - That is how Riptropin is sent, with the packaging seperate to the vials - a very dubious practise for obvious reasons.

    Fossilfuel - I'd imagine that your source got fed up with people querying the packaging being seperate and decided to label & box them himself and was in a hurry to do so!

    I have been getting all the right sides from my Rips but have wondered for some time if our blind faith in the side effects was unfounded...
    I thought I was getting some water weight gain for first 4 weeks from the Rips at 5iu..but it must have been placebo effect and then I found out that it wasn't doing crap..no rise in blood pressure, no rise in BG levels, no improved sleep, no rise in IGF levels from test..even after I bumped it up to 10ius per day...still NOTHING..and that was after 3 months.
    You said it best.."blind faith"..which is what I had when I started.
    I will never buy anything from CHina again. I'll just wait until I am rich and buy American or Euro brand I guess

    PLus..I also found out that the Chinese are masters at using fillers that cause side effects..pretty much like what Xtralarg stated at the start of this thread. It's true..and I heard that from a very reliable source.
    Last edited by fossilfuel7; 07-06-2010 at 03:59 AM. Reason: forgot word

  39. #39
    AndriodLee is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtralarg View Post
    Not going to be easy to test at the right time due to very short half life's and absoprbtion rates differing on methed of administration.

    It would be safer to send your hGH to a lab for testing IMO.
    when is the best time to get blood work done? Right after a shot?

  40. #40
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    marcus300 is online now AR-Platinum Elite- Hall of Famer
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    In the past ive used Lilly,saizen and Genotropin pens and with all of these brands I'v have amazing results over time, but since ive been using Chinese gh ive had complete crap sent to me, ive had AI's disguised as gh from a well know supplier!!! and ive had side effects what mimic gh, but with legit gh you seem to get used to the water retention and over a short period of time it disappears but with the latest Chinese GH the water stays with you which makes alot of people think you have genuine GH but in reality you just have fake. I feel China have all sides cover to fool us all, it would be nice to get a lab test done and have some hard evidence
    *Anyone wanting a source check from a willing vet/mod must first acquire 100 posts and 45 days of activity*

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