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  1. #1
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    IGF-1 LR3 + Peg MGF cycle, when to dose?

    Im just about to order some lr3 and mgf, just trying to clear up when to dose. Ive always heard igf post wo then I came across this article:


    Just one thing. Both MGF as well as IGF (both insulin alike) are dangerous for low bloodsugar cause they have a cross effect on the receptors with insulin.
    With IGF - MGF with insulin a hypercaloric diet, your chances on a hypoglycaemic episode are very real!! .Symptoms are by example dizziness, confusion, depression, tremors, feeling close to losing consciousness. A trip to the ER is a possibility. Mild hypoglycaemia can treated by drinking or eating about 10-20g sugar, in the form of sweetened juice simple carbs or glucose tablets.


    Most of us are familiar with the peptides Insulin-Like Growth Factor (IGF) and Mechano Growth Factor (MGF). We know things like IGF creates new muscle cells and helps drop body fat and MGF helps facilitate this muscle growth and fat loss.

    In the beginning:

    When IGF first made its way onto the bodybuilding scene most people were injecting it every day and noticed that after somewhere around 30 days the effects of IGF wore off. This was blamed on receptor "down-regulation" or "desensitisation". To combat this people started a 5-on 2-off rotation and then went to a post workout only rotation which extended the time on IGF an additional 10-20 days. But the problem with the lack of "receptor response" was still present.

    Then MGF came onto the scene. MGF was suppose to be the next best thing in bodybuilding. It was suppose to be more anabolic than AAS and better suited for building new muscle than IGF, the problem was that it wasn't. Because of its instability it was quickly broken down once injected into the body, to prevent this PegMGF was created. This new MGF was now able to survive in the body from anywhere in the 1-3 days. Combining this new peptide discovery with IGF was suppose to be able to make all of us the next Mr. Olympia. But what happened? Why do we not see a flood of new pros?

    What happened:

    In theory these two peptides should cause some great results, the problem is they do not work together very well unless your timing is spot on (I will go into greater detail later). In short stem cells in the presence of MGF will cause the cells to split and multiply. When the cells are multiplying they cannot form new tissue and the effects of IGF are completely blocked. So the two together are not very compatible.

    Then why not just use IGF? Well most do use IGF only and get great results, but there is that pesky business of receptor "down-regulation" or "desensitisation" and you have to end a cycle of IGF after 30-50 days and there is no way to prevent it... or is there?

    The science:

    In a natural system (Our Body) we have peaks and dips with MGF and IGF levels. The reasons for these peaks and dips are to create the ideal amount of cells to repair and create new tissue. After strenuous exercise the levels of MGF in the body (more specifically in the muscle just trained) increase dramatically and there is a dramatic decrease of IGF levels. The reason for this is because MGF causes stem cells to proliferate (split and multiply). This process ensures that there are enough cells available to make repairs and to create new tissue in order for the tissue to function efficiently and properly (in this case skeletal muscle tissue). As mentioned above in the presence of MGF there is no need for IGF because it is rendered useless and cannot activate the stem cells, so this explains the bodies response to decrease IGF levels.

    In 12-36 hours MGF levels begin to drop and there is a direct correlation in the rise of IGF levels within the body. Stem cells have proliferated and now the IGF will bind to the proper receptors and cause differentiation (force the stem cells to form into a specific cell for a specific tissue type). This process repeats every time you exercise and keeps the natural system in an efficient state.

    When flooding the body with these artificial peptides a person will change this natural system dramatically. A person using MGF only is causing stem cell proliferation while at the same time preventing IGF to perform its duties of creating new tissue from those newly created stem cells. A person using IGF only is depleting the supply of stem cells at a rate much faster than the body can keep up, leading to a depletion of available stem cells and not receptor "down-regulation" or "desensitization."

    This sounds like a lose-lose situation. You are throwing off your body's final tuned muscle repairing mechanism, depleting valuable stem cells or creating too many stem cells for your body to deal with. Why bother?

    The climax:

    The reason why we bother is because we want to reach or goals. We want to be the biggest bodybuilder, the best powerlifter or whatever it is that we are training so hard for. These peptides are a great addition to our arsenal, but learning to use them properly is the key to utilizing their benefits.

    The key is retraining the way we think about MGF and IGF. We have to understand that we are dealing with the creation and depletion of stem cells that are going to be responsible for our muscular growth. Our bodies do not have a constant supply of these stem cells and our bodies will not naturally utilize all of the stem cells it has created. Since we are trying to artificially manipulate the amount and utilization of these stem cells we have to look at this is a different manner.

    While we may never get the exogenous MGF and IGF levels just right so that we may counteract the depletion of the stem cells we can adjust our protocols in a way that will increase the amount of time a person can use and respond to both peptides.

    The Conclusion Part 1, MGF:

    We know that the PegMGF will stay in the body for several days and we know that while in the presence of MGF stem cells will proliferate and the use of IGF is futile. We also know that MGF without the peg is of little to no help because of how quickly exogenous MGF is broken down within the body. So what are the options?

    Well both can be of use! PegMGF can be of great use as long as the individual using the peptide in conjuction with IGF understands that the two peptides must be injected in a manner that falls outside of the current way of thinking. And MGF without the Peg addition can also be utilized as long as you don't mind being a pin cushion.

    The key with MGF is to learn to either follow your bodies natural peaks and dips of MGF levels and force proliferation on a larger scale with MGF, or to force a longer period of cell proliferation with the use of PegMGF. The key is you have to have stem cells in order to create new muscle tissue.

    The Conclusion Part 2, IGF:

    Now that we have hit the MGF part of the cycle, now we move into the part of the cycle that utilizes the stem cells. Again we want to either follow the body's natural peaks and dips of IGF levels or we are going to want to cause a prolonged forced differentiation phase. The latter of the two options is simply following standard protocol of everyday injections or 5-on 2-off. The other is all about timing. We know that MGF levels peak in the body after strenuous exercise, so why would you want to inject a substance that is useless in the presence of MGF right when MGF levels are at their highest? The answer is you don't! You will want to wait and inject the IGF 24hrs after the exercise. This will give ample time for the MGF peak to start to dip and can closely mimic the natural rise in IGF levels. This will allow for a person to use a more efficient dose since the timing of the IGF will correspond closely to the dip in MGF levels resulting in greater utilization of the exogenous IGF.

    The cycles:

    There are a few cycles I would recommend.

    The first being IGF only. It works, maybe not the most efficient plan out there but it does work none-the-less.

    The second would be the PegMGF/IGF combination. This is not the most efficient method but should significantly increase the amount of time one can be on an MGF/IGF cycle and still see positive results. (This may have to be altered according to your training schedule)

    Sunday - Off Training - Mid-day PegMGF 200-300mcg
    Monday - Training (Afternoon)
    Tuesday - Off Training - Afternoon IGF 40-80mcg
    Wednesday - Training (Afternoon)
    Thursday - Off Training - Afternoon IGF 40-80mcg
    Friday - Training (Afternoon)
    Saturday - Off Training - Afternoon IGF Injection 40-80mcg

    The addition of the PegMGF will cause an increase in amount and duration of stem cell proliferation and should subside about the period of the first IGF injection. While this will not keep stem cell levels stable it should prevent the drastic decrease in stem cell numbers seen with IGF only cycles and should significantly increase cycle length.

    The third would be the use of regular MGF plus the addition of IGF and woulld closely mimic the natural system.

    Sunday - Off Training
    Monday - Training (afternoon) - 1hr PWO MGF 50mcg in muscles trained
    Tuesday - Off Training - Afternoon IGF 40-80mcg
    Wednesday - Training (Afternoon) - 1hr PWO MGF 50mcg in muscles trained
    Thursday - Off Training - Afternoon IGF 40-80mcg
    Friday - Training (Afternoon) - 1hr PWO MGF 50mcg in muscles trained
    Saturday - Off Training - Afternoon IGF 40-80mcg

    This protocol should closely mimic natural peaks and dips in MGF and IGF within the specific muscles being trained. While regular MGF is short lived in the body the addition on the regular MGF 1 hour post workout should cause an increase in cell proliferation beyond the natural system's ability and should create a larger pool of stem cells for the utilization of IGF therapy.


    Cliffs: Dont take igf post workout.

    Any opinions?

  2. #2
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    Also came across this:

    Theoretical Dosing Protocols / Stacks / Explanation


    There are many various types of MGF, MGF+IGF-1, IGF-1 stacks that have been attempted and although many of them have been successful, there hasn’t, yet, been a standalone winner. This is due to many factors including availability, price, and little experimental evidence on topics such as down regulation of receptors, antibody production, and suppression of natural hormones/growth factors. There are a lot of people on various boards attempting to “figure out” the scattered scientific data that is spread throughout the internet but it is doing only a small amount of good since most studies conducted on MGF and IGF-1 are done on rats and almost all of the studies done using IGF-1 use rhIGF-1, which mimics the naturally occurring growth factor. There are a lot of doctors and users who question the safety of exogenous IGF-1 use, however. The prime reason surrounding this questionability is due to the fact that IGF-1 has been shown to increase the growth rate of cancerous tumors, enlargement of organs, and various other lurking variables. It must be noted, however, IGF-1 does not directly cause cancer, however, if a cancerous cell culture is already forming then IGF-1 can increase the rate of growth.
    In your body IGF-1 is spliced into many different variants that have different anabolic properties. IGF-1Ea and Mechano Growth Factor (IGF-1Ec or MGF) make up the more important spliced variants of the IGF-1 when referring to muscle growth. IGF-1 receptors are increased greatly following exercise due to lactosis (lactic acid buildup from resistance training), which causes muscle damage to the area. The lactic acid is currently thought to be the culprit as well for other irregular spliced variants of IGF-1, such as des 1-3 IGF-1, which is said to be 10 times more potent than that of IGF-1Ea. The most common variant seen in bodybuilding is Long Chain R3 IGF-1 or LR3 IGF-1. This is because LR3 IGF-1 cannot be bound to the IGF-1 Binding Protein 3 (IGF-1 BP3). IGF-1 and IGF-1 BP3 levels are released based off circulating levels of each. As concentrations of IGF-1 in the body rise so do IGF-1 BP3 and as IGF-1 concentrations fall so do IGF-BP3 levels. Recent scientific evidence points out that the reason for IGF-1 BP3 levels rising due to increased levels of IGF-1 is to increase the half-life of circulating IGF-1. Unbound IGF-1 has a half life of around 20 minutes, where as when it’s bound to IGF-1 BP3 the half life is extended to around ~6-12 hours depending on who you ask. This is why there is so much excitement surrounding LR3 IGF-1, since the effects can be seen at much lower dosages than rhIGF-1 due to the longer circulating half life and higher potency.
    Although the exact pathways for muscle growth through the IGF-1 axis aren’t directly known or fully understood, a basic understanding has been established and common mechanisms are currently being discovered. Although the pathways go into a great deal of detail we will be sticking to the main IGF-1 and spliced variant pathways and not into MyoD or M-Cadherin related material/gene expression. It is thought that following muscle damage, circulating levels of IGF-1 are partially spliced towards MGF, which in turn proliferates (increasing in amount) myoblasts, which are stem cells that are used for creating muscle fibers. Muscles do not undergo mitosis like other cells, instead they must have myoblasts fuse to the area and be activated (given an identity). As seen in the graph below MGF levels are at their peak 1-2 days following muscle activity and begin to decline rapidly afterwards. IGF-1Ea levels begin to rise at the same time MGF levels begin to fall rapidly, around day 4. MGF proliferates cells in their mononucleated states (muscle stem cells), which is an important piece of the recovery puzzle since without these new stem cells there can be no new growth. This is seen in people with muscular dystrophy and although their bodies still produce IGF-1, their muscles do not exhibit MGF expression, showing the importance for MGF in recovering damaged muscles. Although MGF does proliferate these new stem cells as well as increase protein synthesis to a slight degree, MGF also inhibits differentiation in muscle cells (differentiation can be defined as: myoblast alignment, elongation, and fusion into multinucleate myotubes, basically giving them a new identity). IGF-1Ea completes the repairs by drastically increasing protein synthesis and differentiating these newly brought stem cells. Another possibility for IGF-1 is muscle hyperplasia. Although hypertrophy, which is seen with anabolic steroids usage and normal training, is the enlargement of the muscle fiber, due to maturing myofibrils within, while hyperplasia is the actual increase in muscle fibers (refer to Figure 8 below to see a picture). Hyperplasia will not be discussed in detail in this manual until it is more fully understood given scientific evidence based off of studies conducted by trusted scientists. Although many have stated that hyperplasia is impossible without exogenous use of IGF-1, this is a somewhat false statement; a better statement would be that IGF-1 induced hyperplasia occurs at a VERY slow rate naturally since at any given time less than 1% of all IGF-1 circulating in the blood is unbound from IGF-1 BP3. One must also know that despite IGF-1’s effects on muscle hyperplasia and the increased rate at which it occurs when using exogenous LR3 IGF-1, the overall results that are seen can often be seen at their greatest a fair amount of time after using LR3. This occurs due to the fact that newly made muscle fibers are not matured instantly during the process of hyperplasia. Instead, these cells must go through the process of hypertrophy before they mature and become enlarged, another exciting reason to use a combination of MGF and LR3 IGF-1. This is the process of body recomposition that people talk so much about on bodybuilding forums throughout the internet, as you can technically work around your genetic limit and move past it. It must also be noted that in recent studies caloric restriction had no significant effect on MGF, IGF-1, or IGF-1Ea (systemic, liver form of IGF-1) receptor count, making the possibility for exogenous LR3 IGF-1/MGF as a potent, muscle sparing cutter, a great idea.
    Now that all of this basic knowledge of IGF-1 and MGF has been given to you, we can attempt to set up cycles based off of it. Actual dosing protocols for these growth factors (not including hGH) is quite difficult because unlike hormones such as T3 that can be tested for and, therefore, dosed according to circulating levels, it is almost impossible to detect how much MGF is released following muscle loading or how much of a spliced variant such as LR3 IGF-1 needs to be dosed to prevent antibody production or down regulation of receptors, since LR3 IGF-1 doesn’t occur naturally in the body and all studies done are based off of the naturally occurring hIGF-1. This leads us into human testing based off abstract results by brave guinea pigs looking for that extra edge. Although great results have been seen dosing LR3 IGF-1 at 60-120mcg daily following intense exercise, results begin to taper off after around 4 weeks and down regulation of IGF-1 receptors and IGF-1 antibody production is currently thought to be the culprit. Another theory that is being looked into is the possibility that due to LR3 IGF-1’s ability to suppress natural hGH levels, this in turn inhibits MGF levels, which could be the reason people continue to feel effects such as hunger and vascularity on LR3 IGF-1 but no longer see great gains. This leads one to believe that following a lower dosage scheme for a longer amount of time would be the way to go. It seems that not many people are willing to attempt a cycle consisting of 10-20mcg daily of LR3 IGF-1 due to the cost of LR3 IGF-1 being anywhere from $115-$200/mg depending on the source and many feel that a lower dosage would be a waste since “instant” results are not seen.
    MGF has been shown exhibit its effects even while the IGF-1 receptor was blocked in many studies, proving that MGF works through other various pathways and does not attach to the IGF-1R, making it invulnerable to down regulation of the IGF-1R. Since hGH has been said to contribute most of its effects thanks to increased IGF-1 production, the level of IGF-1 produced by administrating exogenous hGH has to be extremely small compared to the amounts currently being injected, which is probably why exogenous hGH results last indefinitely, as seen by many people who use it year round. These small amounts released are not enough to cause rapid down regulation or antibody production. This would be one reason for lower dosage of IGF-1 to be used. An alternative camp says shorter cycles of higher dosages are more important since they want to rapidly increase the rate of muscle hypertrophy/hyperplasia before side effects and blunting effects are seen. MGF dosages have also been widely debated. Although dosages are currently ranging from 20-100+ mcg injected bilaterally following intense exercises, you have to once again think to yourself how much MGF this is when compared to the amount your body is naturally producing. If only less than 1% of IGF-1 is circulating through your blood in the unbound state, and MGF is produced from splicing IGF-1 into MGF, than the amount relative to the 100mcg that people are currently administering is an extremely massive quantity. However, before you consider this a waste to inject this amount of exogenous MGF, it might be a good idea to use these concentrations after all, since the muscle could ultimately be extremely over trained, hitting much more of the muscle and causing greater damage to more muscle fibers and still be able to recover in time for the next workout due increased nuclei/satellite cell production. Add LR3 IGF-1 to the mix and you have a potent combination of recover and repair that your body uses itself after intense exercise. Since the cost of MGF is currently ~$100/mg and the effects, unlike LR3 IGF-1, are localized, one should limit its use to 1 or maybe 2 lagging body parts per cycle to get the max effect. In the figures below you will see how your body responds in a worked and non-worked muscle in response to release of MGF. In the study a rabbit was subjected to stimulation of his left leg while the right leg was held relaxed. MGF increased drastically on the left side while very minimally in the right side, showing that MGF is indeed localized. After review of all the evidence and scientific data it would seem logical to set up a dosage scheme such as the following although this has not be experimentally verified yet and there could be potentially better ways of dosing and cycling.



    MGF + LR3 IGF-1 Dosage Scheme (following intense loading of lagging muscle group)

    Assuming a 4 day per week workout schedule on M-T and Th-F:

    Day 1: 150mg PEG-MGF 1-2 hours before lifting
    Day 2: 10mcg-20mcg LR3 IGF-1 PWO
    Day 3: None
    Day 4: 10mcg-20mcg LR3 IGF-1 Before Breakfast
    Day 5: 150mg PEG-MGF 1-2 hours before lifting
    Day 6: 10mcg-20mcg LR3 IGF-1
    Day 7: None

    (The above was written for muscle growth. If you are using LR3 IGF-1 for controlling blood glucose I recommend 10mcg every day in the morning)

    This is a great way to kick start a lagging muscle group with high dosages of potent growth factors. This dosage scheme follows the graph below, which is the body’s natural way of repairing muscle, just with much higher dosages. This dosage scheme also seems logical to prevent too much down regulation of receptors. Although there is no scientific data that backs up administering MGF pre workout; results from various people indicate that better gains and quicker recovery times were observed, possibly due MGF’s ability to proliferate satellite cells, but since this takes time, the cells could be available directly after you are done with your workout when given a pre workout injection of it. It must also be noted that overtraining the lagging muscle group could possibly lead to increased muscle hypertrophy when using exogenous LR3 IGF-1 and MGF in combination. An experiment conducted by Dr. Goldspink was created to experiment with the ability of the IGF-1 axis to repair damaged muscle. Four groups were created: a sham group, a normal group, a consistently stretched/stimulated group (s/s), and a bicupivaine injected group (bup). The results were extremely interesting. While the control groups saw basically no change in their muscle mass, the s/s group had ~12% less mass after s/s, whilst the bup group showed a 1/3 reduction of their weight 4 days following the bup injection. They then graphed the amounts of IGF-1Ea and MGF present in their muscles following muscle damage (graph below). They found that 14 days following s/s the rats of this group saw no change in weight (probably due to the fact the diets aren’t on a high calorie, high protein diet like most bodybuilders) while the rats injected with bup saw a 10% increase in weight, although it took 24 days total for this to occur. This shows that since bup affected more muscle fibers it allowed more of the MGF induced satellite cells/nuclei to fuse to the damaged cells and to be activated and also allowed greater recovery and use of circulating amino acids caused by the increase in IGF-1Ea a few days following. As seen however, those injected with bup took twice as long to recover. This would lead one to believe that overtraining the specific muscle group or basically getting more of a burn and more of a soreness the next day would lead to increased hypertrophy in a hypocaloric diet when injecting exogenous LR3 IGF-1 and MGF, although exact dosages are not yet clear. There are many possible outcomes. One is the fact that vastly increased amounts of MGF and LR3 IGF-1 present from exogenous use will be sufficient enough to repair the muscle in a much shorter amount of time than your body would take to use its natural sources. The second outcome is that dosages will need to be significantly ramped up or taken for longer periods of time for proper recover to occur, although I feel either the first or a mixture of the two will probably suffice. I will soon be experimenting with this overtraining and experimentation following my personal MGF + LR3 IGF-1 use and results will be posted shortly thereafter.



    Storage of LR3 IGF-1
    *Study conducted by Gropep
    The stability of a liquid solution of LR3IGF-I was monitored for a period of two years at storage conditions of -20 C, +4 C, +22 C, and +37 C. The final concentration of LR3IGF-I was in acetic acid. At various time points, samples were taken and compared to a lyophilized control (stored at 4 C). Listed below are the stability results for each respective storage condition.


    Storage Condition: -20 C (-4 F)
    Biological Potency No Change up to 2 years
    Immunological Activity No Change up to 2 years
    Mobility of Protein No Change up to 2 years
    Elution Profile by reversed phased HPLC No Change up to 2 years

    Storage Condition: +4 C (39.2 F)
    Biological Potency No Change up to 2 years
    Immunological Activity No Change up to 2 years
    Mobility of Protein No Change up to 2 years
    Elution Profile by reversed phased HPLC No Change up to 2 years

    Storage Condition: +22 C (71.6 F)
    Biological Potency No Change up to 2 years
    Immunological Activity No Change up to 2 years
    Mobility of Protein No Change up to 2 years
    Elution Profile by reversed phased HPLC No Change up to 2 years

    Storage Condition: +37 C (98.6 F)
    Biological Potency No Change up to 1 year
    Immunological Activity No Change up to 1 year
    Mobility of Protein No Change up to 1 year
    Elution Profile by reversed phased HPLC No Change up to 1 year

    It is important to note that at the time of writing this article PEG-MGF wasn't available. PEG-MGF is to be taken much less frequently then regular MGF due to the long half life.

  3. #3
    Newcastle is offline Junior Member
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    A+ Read, thank you for the info.

  4. #4
    Newcastle is offline Junior Member
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    So when your done with one of these cycles, is there some sort of PCT to restart your natrul GH and IGF-1 levels. Something like CJC-1295 and some GHRP-6, to get levels back to normal?

  5. #5
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    No.

    Started today, did a lot of reading. Im running 200 mcg peg on sunday and wednesday (off days) and 50 mcgs of lr3 mon, tues, thurs, fri pwo for 5 weeks. Ill post results and update once a week.

  6. #6
    Total Noob is offline New Member
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    ShovelHead, great write up so far. Any update on your results?

  7. #7
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    Unfortuneatly I got sick/overtrained right before I started so I wasnt performing well at all for the last couple weeks and stopped the igf. Im better now so Ill start the igf again and post up results. Last week I was feeling better and was only taking the peg. I was throwing up the same weight easier on shoulder day and Im currently on a cut. So far so good, Ill update every week.

  8. #8
    Total Noob is offline New Member
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    Sounds great man, looking forward to your posts.

  9. #9
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    Update

    So far, so good.

    Im doing a recomp diet, 2900 cal, 100 fat, 250 carb, 250 pro. I was at 12.5% bf about a month ago, now down to about 11-11.5% (using repeated averaged caliper measurements). My abs and arms are "popping" a lot more. My strength has stayed the same at worst, more than likely it is up some. One side I didnt expect is my appetite went down quite a bit which actually worked quite well considering I dropped my cals by about 900.

    Im only running peg until I finish the bottle @ 400 mcg/week. Once Im done the peg (about a week or so) Ill start the igf @ 50 mcg mon/wed/fri pwo.

    I wasnt expecting to drop fat this quickly, but am still planning to recomp for the igf aswell. Hopefully I can get to 10% then get on a var/prop cycle for the summer.

    Ill keep updating...

  10. #10
    M302_Imola's Avatar
    M302_Imola is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    will you be injecting the igf into the area worked out pwo?

  11. #11
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    Yes, same as Im doing now with the peg. Im only pinning my left side though as it is noticably smaller than my right for most muscles.

  12. #12
    M302_Imola's Avatar
    M302_Imola is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by S&S_ShovelHead View Post
    Yes, same as Im doing now with the peg. Im only pinning my left side though as it is noticably smaller than my right for most muscles.
    gotcha

  13. #13
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    Another week gone.

    Strength up a little, body fat down a little. Im happy with what Im seeing. Done the peg so the rest of the updates will be regarding the IGF, I think I should have enough for about four weeks.

  14. #14
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    M302_Imola is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    ^^^good deal

  15. #15
    Buschlightcan's Avatar
    Buschlightcan is offline Associate Member
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    Whats the date of this article?

  16. #16
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    Dont know article date, Im sure you can google it.

    I had a long weekend last week and I always go on a vacation, missed a couple days in the gym and drank heavy three days in a row, diet was garbage (I know I shouldnt have but I work hard all year to party on that weekend).

    I usually come back weaker and fatter.

    My bf is 10.5-11 % (down or atleast the same), strength is definately up.

    Im going to do more research about lr3`s affect on natural igf & hgh levels, any imput would be appreciated. But if the risks outweigh the rewards I think Ide be happy to leave aas alone and go one with IGF from here on out.

  17. #17
    jtuner77 is offline Member
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    Interesting post. Makes me think about this over AAS

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