chiropractor? do they work? med insurance?

[towtheline]

BINGO. Great post. Iatrogenic(sp?) deaths should end this discussion.

[BrokenBricks]

Such ignorance is a luxury of the healthy. What surprises me is the confidence people have in opinions which they surely must know they have a poor basis for believing. Has anyone here been to medical school? Anyone been in the presence of physicians discussing a study in a medical journal? Anyone been through medical residency?

[MuscleScience]

I doubt he is a chiropractor. It is wildly inappropriate to call oneself a physician without an M.D. or D.O. degree.

No he is....

[BrokenBricks]

No he is....

Just so everyone understands Chiropractors are not physicians. Their training is completely inadequate for them to function as primary care providers. It is, without exaggeration, unethical and dangerous to give the opinions of a non-physician the appearance of having come from a physician.

[MuscleScience]

Just so everyone understands Chiropractors are not physicians. Their training is completely inadequate for them to function as primary care providers. It is, without exaggeration, unethical and dangerous to give the opinions of a non-physician the appearance of having come from a physician.

From what I understand, all Chiropractic schools in order to meet board requirements have to have either Ph.D's or MD's teach core science classes. These schools curriculum has to be up to the same requirements as the minimum level of which medical schools have to meet. In fact most of the curriculum is modeled after Medical schools, other than the Chiropractic specific classes.

I think though I am not sure that the state boards refer to chiropractors a physicians. Nevada refers to Chiropractors as Chiropractic Physicians, at least my friend that practices there license to practice says that.

[BrokenBricks]

From what I understand, all Chiropractic schools in order to meet board requirements have to have either Ph.D's or MD's teach core science classes. These schools curriculum has to be up to the same requirements as the minimum level of which medical schools have to meet. In fact most of the curriculum is modeled after Medical schools, other than the Chiropractic specific classes.

I think though I am not sure that the state boards refer to chiropractors a physicians. Nevada refers to Chiropractors as Chiropractic Physicians, at least my friend that practices there license to practice says that.

I would be interested to see the academic credentials of the teachers. I would like to see any evidence that the curriculum is comparable at all. It is not sufficient to call a class "Anatomy" or to even use the same text book in the course in making the case that the anatomy education is the same.

I won't retread old ground with the typical criticisms of the job. What I will say is that even a medical school graduate is completely incapable of providing adequate primary medical care. Medical school does not teach you how to be a doctor, residency does...years of it. Medical school grants the title of doctor, you are a "physician", but if that was all there was to it the word wouldn't mean much. If the education was complete at that point the word "physician" would not be something of value some here are attempting to impersonate.

In another thread how did I introduce myself? As a doctor? No. As a resident. I could have used words which were technically correct, but in a manner which was intellectually dishonest. Instead I tried to communicate accurately what I knew, but more importantly what I *don't* know. When Chiropractors use a title like doctor they do it specifically with the goal of borrowing on the trust that mainstream science has earned with the public (not withstanding a few loons here). When they use the term Chiropractic Physician they are doing the same. As opposed to "Doctor" which does have other meanings outside medicine, the word physician is *explicitly* defined as referring to M.D. and D.O. medical professionals. The entire purpose of using that word, as a chiropractor, is to lend credibility to the DC profession. It is immaterial whether credibility is deserved, the motivation is the same.

But when someone does not even say "Chiropractic physician" but only "Physician" that person is simply lying. Lying. If they are engaged in the practice of medicine as a self-described "Physician" they should go to jail. Period.

[MuscleScience]

I would be interested to see the academic credentials of the teachers. I would like to see any evidence that the curriculum is comparable at all. It is not sufficient to call a class "Anatomy" or to even use the same text book in the course in making the case that the anatomy education is the same.

I won't retread old ground with the typical criticisms of the job. What I will say is that even a medical school graduate is completely incapable of providing adequate primary medical care. Medical school does not teach you how to be a doctor, residency does...years of it. Medical school grants the title of doctor, you are a "physician", but if that was all there was to it the word wouldn't mean much. If the education was complete at that point the word "physician" would not be something of value some here are attempting to impersonate.

In another thread how did I introduce myself? As a doctor? No. As a resident. I could have used words which were technically correct, but in a manner which was intellectually dishonest. Instead I tried to communicate accurately what I knew, but more importantly what I *don't* know. When Chiropractors use a title like doctor they do it specifically with the goal of borrowing on the trust that mainstream science has earned with the public (not withstanding a few loons here). When they use the term Chiropractic Physician they are doing the same. As opposed to "Doctor" which does have other meanings outside medicine, the word physician is *explicitly* defined as referring to M.D. and D.O. medical professionals. The entire purpose of using that word, as a chiropractor, is to lend credibility to the DC profession. It is immaterial whether credibility is deserved, the motivation is the same.

But when someone does not even say "Chiropractic physician" but only "Physician" that person is simply lying. Lying. If they are engaged in the practice of medicine as a self-described "Physician" they should go to jail. Period.

So your saying that a family Doctor should be called Doctor....????

[BrokenBricks]

So your saying that a family Doctor should be called Doctor....????

I feel like I am missing something here. Or did you mistype? A family doctor, a residency trained physician, is a doctor, yes. Surely you meant something else.

[MuscleScience]

do family docs do a residency???

[BrokenBricks]

do family docs do a residency???

Absolutely. Three years (The shortest there is) after medical school. Most importantly, they actually see sick people. It cannot be overstated the necessity of have contact with actual honest to god sick patients. 80 hours a week 50 weeks a year for 3 years. Current grads take some heat now from the older doctors because it used to be more like 120 hours a week.

What is most important is not the time, but the quality of the encounter. Not that any DC would claim knowledge of this subject, but how many pictures of a gun shot wound to the chest do you have to have to look at to be able to treat a dying person with a gunshot wound. I would be delighted to take some of these anti-doctor posters into my emergency room trauma bay *for ten minutes* and watch them lose their minds.

[MuscleScience]

Absolutely. Three years (The shortest there is) after medical school. Most importantly, they actually see sick people. It cannot be overstated the necessity of have contact with actual honest to god sick patients. 80 hours a week 50 weeks a year for 3 years. Current grads take some heat now from the older doctors because it used to be more like 120 hours a week.

What is most important is not the time, but the quality of the encounter. Not that any DC would claim knowledge of this subject, but how many pictures of a gun shot wound to the chest do you have to have to look at to be able to treat a dying person with a gunshot wound. I would be delighted to take some of these anti-doctor posters into my emergency room trauma bay *for ten minutes* and watch them lose their minds.

No offense man, but you seem extremely bitter.

[BrokenBricks]

No offense man, but you seem extremely bitter.

It really burns me up to see someone pretending to be a doctor. It is unethical.

[MuscleScience]

It really burns me up to see someone pretending to be a doctor. It is unethical.

I guess thats a matter of opinion. When i get my Ph.D i will be somewhat offended if someone doesnt address me as Doctor whether he is an MD or not.

[thegodfather]

It really burns me up to see someone pretending to be a doctor. It is unethical.

DMD/DDS/DPM are also allowed to call themselves physicians/doctors under most states laws. It is not specifically reserved for MD/DO. Certainly you would not say that a DMD who has undergone a 7 year residency for OMFS is not a "Doctor." Neither would you say that a DPM who has done a lengthy residency in vascular surgery as not being a Dr/Physician.

In fact, if an MD/DO wants to go into OMFS, they have to do an accelerated 3 year program at an accredited Dental school.

[thegodfather]

I guess thats a matter of opinion. When i get my Ph.D i will be somewhat offended if someone doesnt address me as Doctor whether he is an MD or not.

Agreed...But I think its important to differentiate the setting the word is being used in. A Ph.D is NOT to be called "Doctor" in a clinical setting such as a hospital. It is confusing to patients and that person is not qualified to diagnose and treat patients, only to do research. However, in an academic setting it would be highly inappropriate to not address you as Doctor, as it is a title you have rightfully earned...

I suppose in a teaching/university hospital, a Ph.D might be called 'Doctor' by other attendings/residents/students/nurses etc, but still not by patients.

In a casual/social setting, it is HIGHLY inappropriate to introduce yourself as "Dr.________,"whether you be an MD/DO/Ph.d/DC/DPM/DMD, and implies that you are trying to establish superiority over the person you are talking to. Basically, if thats how you introduce yourself in non-clinical and non-academic settings, YOUR A JERKOFF.

[MuscleScience]

Agreed...But I think its important to differentiate the setting the word is being used in. A Ph.D is NOT to be called "Doctor" in a clinical setting such as a hospital. It is confusing to patients and that person is not qualified to diagnose and treat patients, only to do research. However, in an academic setting it would be highly inappropriate to not address you as Doctor, as it is a title you have rightfully earned...

I suppose in a teaching/university hospital, a Ph.D might be called 'Doctor' by other attendings/residents/students/nurses etc, but still not by patients.

In a casual/social setting, it is HIGHLY inappropriate to introduce yourself as "Dr.________,"whether you be an MD/DO/Ph.d/DC/DPM/DMD, and implies that you are trying to establish superiority over the person you are talking to. Basically, if thats how you introduce yourself in non-clinical and non-academic settings, YOUR A JERKOFF.

I tend to agree, unless said Ph.D is an expert in a particular field of a medical profession. Clinical Pathologist that are not MD's but Ph.D's that work in hospitals are addressed as doctors. They could look and practically any cell in the body and determine the pathology that is presented before them. That in effect is diagnosis is it not.

I totally agree with the causal setting thing though.

[towtheline]

so broken bricks you are a resident? So if I understand you correctly you have examined the class loads and boards that chiro's take? You compare trauma room gushot wounds to torticollis? I think you are missing the point. Your arrogance is what will send your future patients to a DC. You will bash the profession, not even knowing curriculum and then the patient will go the said DC and be amazed at the time spent with the patient and the knowledge of the musculoskeletal system. I speak from experience. Last month I had a car accident. Was hit almost head on by a vehicle that was driving 40-50 mph the police report said. Went to urgent care, got asked a few question, BP taken and told to go home and ice my neck. I said hmm, my left arm is numb, and the MD said if not better go to GP in a few days. Went right over to my chiro and X-rays, ultrasound, put on 2 days light duty and full exam. Orthopedic type stuff, Range of motion, reflexes, pinwheel sensations and given a full half hour of stretches to perform as well as lifts to perform and avoid. I will end there. Who was the better DOCTOR here? WHo had the ability to diagnose me? And amazing the MD charged me over $650, and the entire DC visit was $250. I think you are one of those guys that get so caught up in your research and pufffed out chest that you forget your job; helping patients. At least I hope I am wrong. I have been around the healthcare profession in many consulting capacities and you new residents have the ability to close the gap and actually recognize the value of what used to be called alternative haelthcare. You guys and gals better wake up though, because your future patients are taking charge of their own health, and it isn't coming in for a 2 minute exam and told to mask the pain with vicodin. Good luck to you.

[BrokenBricks]

DMD/DDS/DPM are also allowed to call themselves physicians/doctors under most states laws. It is not specifically reserved for MD/DO. Certainly you would not say that a DMD who has undergone a 7 year residency for OMFS is not a "Doctor." Neither would you say that a DPM who has done a lengthy residency in vascular surgery as not being a Dr/Physician.

In fact, if an MD/DO wants to go into OMFS, they have to do an accelerated 3 year program at an accredited Dental school.

You are right. Dentists and OMFS are referred to as doctor in a clinical setting and appropriately so. The podiatrists I cannot speak to because I don't know much about their scope of practice and education.

[BrokenBricks]

so broken bricks you are a resident?

Right.

So if I understand you correctly you have examined the class loads and boards that chiro's take?

As best I can. I don't know a a tremendous amount about the boards they take. Though considering the *dramatic* differences in what even people in the same field think is correct I cannot imagine they are too rigorous, as it would make it impossible for people of very different opinions to all have a reasonable chance at passing.

You compare trauma room gushot wounds to torticollis?

Where did I mention torticollis? If DC only limited themselves to treating musculoskeletal problems there would not be so much resistance. Apart from the fact that their entire philosophy is demonstrably inconsistent with *any* science the main issue is that they attempt to treat conditions they have no experience with.

I think you are missing the point. Your arrogance is what will send your future patients to a DC.

Can you provide an example of my arrogance?

You will bash the profession, not even knowing curriculum and then the patient will go the said DC and be amazed at the time spent with the patient and the knowledge of the musculoskeletal system.

I have been very generous in my posts. I have no problem with DC who restrict themselves to MS symptoms and are quick to refer anything else to a physician. This is a rarity in chiropractic.

I speak from experience. Last month I had a car accident. Was hit almost head on by a vehicle that was driving 40-50 mph the police report said. Went to urgent care, got asked a few question, BP taken and told to go home and ice my neck. I said hmm, my left arm is numb, and the MD said if not better go to GP in a few days. Went right over to my chiro and X-rays, ultrasound, put on 2 days light duty and full exam. Orthopedic type stuff, Range of motion, reflexes, pinwheel sensations and given a full half hour of stretches to perform as well as lifts to perform and avoid. I will end there. Who was the better DOCTOR here? WHo had the ability to diagnose me? And amazing the MD charged me over $650, and the entire DC visit was $250. I think you are one of those guys that get so caught up in your research and pufffed out chest that you forget your job; helping patients.

I am sorry you had a bad experience. Understand that the ER is not a place to go to have a muscle strain treated. If you come into the ER after having a car accident what happens to you is going to depend on how you look. Clearly you did not have an emergency condition and it was appropriate to send you home. The ER employs people with an amazing set of skills all working together to treat life threatening conditions. Using that resource to spend an hour of one on one time with you is not efficient and would not have benefited you. You seem to have strained your neck and a few days rest is the treatment. Pain meds can make you more comfortable while you wait on your body to repair itself. You could have played on a PS3, knitted a sweater or seen a chiropractor....the fact that this pain improved 2-3 days after the event is evidence that, like all muscle stains, time heals.

No doctor would send you home with a numb arm after an accident. You mean it felt funny or different.

I am shocked you were charged so little. You are lucky you did not get your neck CT'd if you were complaining of *any* arm weakness, much less "numb".

What you have to understand is that seeing a doctor in a location staffed with a half dozen nurses is an expensive thing merely becuase of the costs of creating that environment. The fact that in your case it was totally unnecessary does not change the economics of the situation. You were evaluated by a highly trained group. You can be confident that serious disease was ruled out. But that expertise is not cheap. A guy on the street might have looked at you and said "Eh, you will be fine" and only charged you five bucks...doesn't mean you got anything of value. The quality of the opinion is what holds the value.

Next time maybe you should either not call 911, or if they were called for you, refuse to be taken. Simple. Go see a chiropractor if you like. I'm willing to bet you wont do that if you ever have a frightening symptom.

I wish we could make everyone happy, but sometimes doing what is best for the patient is not what makes them happiest.

[MuscleScience]

Right.
I have been very generous in my posts. I have no problem with DC who restrict themselves to MS symptoms and are quick to refer anything else to a physician. This is a rarity in chiropractic.

Do you have proof of this?

[BrokenBricks]

Do you have proof of this?

I am not sure the best way to make my point here. I'm going to post two pieces of information. One is just a common cartoon meant to describe the relation a given vertebral segment has to disease. The great majority of this cartoon is just demonstrably false. Your optic nerve is a cranial nerve which never enters the spinal canal, yet in the diagram it is associated with C2 somehow. This is anatomy. It is not up for debate.

More relevant to your point. Look at the "effects"....I mean, its shocking. T3 dysfunction causes bronchitis? T11 pimples? Apart for the patent absurdity of all this to anyone with ANY rigorous medical training the point is made. This is what the DC thinks he knows something about. At the end of the day it is just a picture and anyone can come in and say "Well *I* have this other view of things"....such a response is possible for any critique...what is important is not what one specific DC does, it is what the profession stands for and their total rejection of any scientific method of verifying their claims.




Just as telling, here is a news article on a survey sent to DCs. I can post the actual study, but it is easier to just communicate the results. Take a look at this: This was a survey of about 700 DCs...you wont believe it:


"From a list of 24 clinical services and privileges, a majority of respondents deemed 21 of the items "appropriate for the chiropractic profession's scope of practice," while three of the procedures (colonics, obstetrics and minor surgery) were rejected by the majority. Results were as follows: home-based exercise (98.6% responding "yes"); orthotics/pillows (97.7%); clinic-based exercise (96.9%); vitamins and minerals (96.7%); collars, supports and braces (96.6%); acupressure (94.0%); modalities (electrical muscle stimulation, etc.) (93.5%); massage (93.1%); herbs (91.1%); TENS (90.6%); thermography (88.6%); surface EMG (86.9%); homeopathic medicines (82.1%); acupuncture (76.8%);hospital admitting privileges (74.2%);in-house labs (68.2%); manipulation under anesthesia (67.2%); casting (62.0%); venipuncture (60.6%); ECG (EKG) (59.4%); needle EMG (56.7%); colonics (39.6%); obstetrics (31.1%); and minor surgery (23.5%)."


First, Homeopathy? Holy shit.

Admitting privileges? Who is a DC seeing who is so sick they need to stay in the hospital?

[MuscleScience]

I am not sure the best way to make my point here. I'm going to post two pieces of information. One is just a common cartoon meant to describe the relation a given vertebral segment has to disease. The great majority of this cartoon is just demonstrably false. Your optic nerve is a cranial nerve which never enters the spinal canal, yet in the diagram it is associated with C2 somehow. This is anatomy. It is not up for debate.

More relevant to your point. Look at the "effects"....I mean, its shocking. T3 dysfunction causes bronchitis? T11 pimples? Apart for the patent absurdity of all this to anyone with ANY rigorous medical training the point is made. This is what the DC thinks he knows something about. At the end of the day it is just a picture and anyone can come in and say "Well *I* have this other view of things"....such a response is possible for any critique...what is important is not what one specific DC does, it is what the profession stands for and their total rejection of any scientific method of verifying their claims.




Just as telling, here is a news article on a survey sent to DCs. I can post the actual study, but it is easier to just communicate the results. Take a look at this: This was a survey of about 700 DCs...you wont believe it:


"From a list of 24 clinical services and privileges, a majority of respondents deemed 21 of the items "appropriate for the chiropractic profession's scope of practice," while three of the procedures (colonics, obstetrics and minor surgery) were rejected by the majority. Results were as follows: home-based exercise (98.6% responding "yes"); orthotics/pillows (97.7%); clinic-based exercise (96.9%); vitamins and minerals (96.7%); collars, supports and braces (96.6%); acupressure (94.0%); modalities (electrical muscle stimulation, etc.) (93.5%); massage (93.1%); herbs (91.1%); TENS (90.6%); thermography (88.6%); surface EMG (86.9%); homeopathic medicines (82.1%); acupuncture (76.8%);hospital admitting privileges (74.2%);in-house labs (68.2%); manipulation under anesthesia (67.2%); casting (62.0%); venipuncture (60.6%); ECG (EKG) (59.4%); needle EMG (56.7%); colonics (39.6%); obstetrics (31.1%); and minor surgery (23.5%)."


First, Homeopathy? Holy shit.

Admitting privileges? Who is a DC seeing who is so sick they need to stay in the hospital?

I fail to see your point?, so you dont believe in homeopathy. It is not something that is taught in any chiropractic schools. A DC is a portal of entry provider. If someone comes in with a headache which is a very common thing for a DC to see. They may be displaying signs of CVA, they would surely have them admitted to a hospital. MVA patients come in all the time complaining of back pain or neck pain. Only to find out that they may have some sort of fracture upon xray and examination. Certainly they would have them admitted to the hospital.

I suggest you read up on the Wilkes vs AMA of 1975 and you will find out just how biased the AMA was/is towards chiropractic. All because they wouldnt surrender and be absorbed my medicine as the DO profession reluctantly did.

I am a scientist, I have publications to my credit. I can be open minded to things that I do not know nothing about, such as your lack of knowledge of chiropractic. I have DC's as friends, they certainly do not believe in snake oil and fringe science. You fail to relies that there are quacks in every profession. You only hear about the bad, to be honest. I have had 5 surgeries 4 of which were complete failures as not fault of my own. My grandmother was mis-diagnosed with diabetes and CF for ten years before and had seen a plethora of doctors all of which missed her real problems. It took a DO doing her residency that was big into CAM and diet prescription to figure out that she was not diabetic and her medications were causing lung and kidney problems. Thus when they concluded her treatments and put her on the right stuff she suddenly didnt have CF anymore.

I have to be honest with you. In my dealings with MD's other than my orthopedist who sent me to a chiropractor for treatment. It has been nothing but negative. Both as a patient and as someone that has collaborated with them on various research ventures. My god do you guys take a research statistic class...

Medical arrogance is apparent, you guys do not know it all and many people are being driven away by modern medicine because a pill is not going to fix anything. Like I said I admire some aspects of medicine and I am not against it at all.There is a push newer doctors towards the collaborating with CAM practitioners like DO's and DC's. Hell I was about a week away from doing my MD/PhD before I figured out that other MD's look down on that, I said the hell with it I will be a PhD and not deal with it.

You being an ER doc is a pretty tough thing and you have to know your stuff, and be able to deal with constant stress and pressure situations. I know its hard, and no one on here is discounting that.

[MuscleScience]

Also if you do not think that nervous pathologies do not cause other pathological changes then how does RSDS or now called Complex Regional Pain Syndrome effect bone abnormalities?

[BrokenBricks]

Homeopathy is a fringe as it gets. I cannot imagine how you could not agree having a science background. It flies in the face of *all* modern scientific knowledge. How learned are you about what those guys believe?

Homeopathy is not taught? All the more reason is it absurd that DC *use it*.

I don't understand the ease with which you brushed off that picture. Does it not show the DC make claims regarding disease throughout the body?

I don't know who your friends are. Needless to say this is not a discussion about your friends. In my training in research it is stressed that there are inherent weaknesses in personal anecdotes.

You understand that the DC don't actually *study* any of this. It is taught, and learned, but no one does the randomized controlled studies to validate it. Recently some MD's and PhD have gone about testing this for them. It goes without saying what the results are.

[BrokenBricks]

No one currently understands the mechanism of RSDS. Of the spectrum of signs and symptoms the causality is not known.

Lets not get distracted. You asked if i had evidence DC did more than treat MS problems. Have we settled that?

Are we in disagreement that Homeopathy is snake oil? (Sort of discussion over if we do. No competent scientist can see this as anything but nonsense. For those of you saying "Maybe be open minded?" Read about it. It will blow your mind if you have any background in science.)

Certainly you didn't say that pills don't treat anything?

[Doc.Sust]

I am not sure the best way to make my point here. I'm going to post two pieces of information. One is just a common cartoon meant to describe the relation a given vertebral segment has to disease. The great majority of this cartoon is just demonstrably false. Your optic nerve is a cranial nerve which never enters the spinal canal, yet in the diagram it is associated with C2 somehow. This is anatomy. It is not up for debate.

More relevant to your point. Look at the "effects"....I mean, its shocking. T3 dysfunction causes bronchitis? T11 pimples? Apart for the patent absurdity of all this to anyone with ANY rigorous medical training the point is made. This is what the DC thinks he knows something about. At the end of the day it is just a picture and anyone can come in and say "Well *I* have this other view of things"....such a response is possible for any critique...what is important is not what one specific DC does, it is what the profession stands for and their total rejection of any scientific method of verifying their claims.




Just as telling, here is a news article on a survey sent to DCs. I can post the actual study, but it is easier to just communicate the results. Take a look at this: This was a survey of about 700 DCs...you wont believe it:


"From a list of 24 clinical services and privileges, a majority of respondents deemed 21 of the items "appropriate for the chiropractic profession's scope of practice," while three of the procedures (colonics, obstetrics and minor surgery) were rejected by the majority. Results were as follows: home-based exercise (98.6% responding "yes"); orthotics/pillows (97.7%); clinic-based exercise (96.9%); vitamins and minerals (96.7%); collars, supports and braces (96.6%); acupressure (94.0%); modalities (electrical muscle stimulation, etc.) (93.5%); massage (93.1%); herbs (91.1%); TENS (90.6%); thermography (88.6%); surface EMG (86.9%); homeopathic medicines (82.1%); acupuncture (76.8%);hospital admitting privileges (74.2%);in-house labs (68.2%); manipulation under anesthesia (67.2%); casting (62.0%); venipuncture (60.6%); ECG (EKG) (59.4%); needle EMG (56.7%); colonics (39.6%); obstetrics (31.1%); and minor surgery (23.5%)."


First, Homeopathy? Holy shit.

Admitting privileges? Who is a DC seeing who is so sick they need to stay in the hospital?

ok buddy, i dont feel like locking horns so i am not. first off, that chart you posted is a crock of crap.i dont know one other DC who even follows or looks at that chart. i treat musculoskeletal injuries and do PT. i specialize in work comp and personal injury cases. i have 2 practices and i am part owner of an MRI center. one of my partners in business is a DO and majority of our referrals come from MD's ,DO's and lawyers. i work hand in hand with orthopods, neuro and pain management dr's and we refer back and forth.

i dont claim to be able to cure cancer, treat gun shot wounds or severe trauma. i dont think chiro. is the cure all treatment for anything. i believe in medicine BUT i also do believe chiro has a place in healthcare. Conservative care can and does work. it is a much better option for a disc bulge or herniation than immediate surgery. of course it always doesnt work, but the people that it does work for are thankful they didnt have to take it to the next level of surgery or a spinal fusion. for example did you know the success rate for a multiple spinal fusion surgery is only 15%!

http://www.spinaldisorders.com/spina...d=39&Itemid=42

another example
"Todd Albert, MD"

"This is a very helpful article for patients contemplating lumbar fusion surgery. Patients with back and/or leg pain should attempt prolonged NON-OPERATIVE treatment prior to embarking on a path toward lumbar fusion. Remember that fusion will be much more helpful for certain diagnoses (degenerative spondylolisthesis, isthmic spondylolisthesis, and documented instability) and not so predictable for others (degenerative disc disease without instability)."

apparently i am not alone. the insurance companies pay me and recognize me as a Dr./health care provider. my patients continue to comeback to me and so as long as they continue too, i have no problem if you dont consider me by your elite title of Dr. frankly,i can care less.

it seems to me you have been grossly misinformed about my profession and came up with this grandioso conclusion by reading a few articles and repeating others opinions based on what you may have been told wether or not if it was truly fact or fiction. but you have no idea about our education, credentialing,or licensing. i assume you never have been to a chiro, with that being said, how do you know what a chiro really knows or does? by the way, those who have educated me through school where phd's in anatomy, neuro science, infectious disease and bio-chemistry. my histology teacher was an MD, and other courses that i cant think off of hand by DC's and DO's. take a look at some of the curriculum, i think you would be surprised, it wasnt mickey mouse bullshit and good times. it was a bitch.

i dont pretend to be as qualified or more qualified than any other health care professional. i know my scope of practice and when something falls out of my scope of practice, i refer out to someone who's scope of practice it is.

[MuscleScience]

You say there are no studies but there are plenty of RCS out there. I do not profess to know that side of the literature and I know you do not either. And how much possible training in science can you have. Do you yourself have even one publication? You can sit in a class room and read a paper or two but nothing replaces doing the actual process. Same line of reasoning you used before. I could never look at a hundred pictures of gun shot wounds and know what the hell I was talking about when it came to the real thing.

Acupunture has studies that show its effective, it also has studies that show its not. Does that mean that its doesnt work, or is it inconclusive. No it means further study needs to be done. That is the scientific process, you dont make profound conclusions on one study. When you posted the Running vs walking study, that was one study. Dr Cooper has hundreds of studies that say something completely different than that one study. ACSM's own position on exercise still states that running and walking burn around the same amount of calories based on distance. Acupunture

He is an MD that flew in the face of modern medicine at the time and said that medicine needed to be more open to new ideas and move away from treatment of disease to prevention of disease. He was radical for saying such things and that was in 1969. Guess what he was called a quack, now he is considered a pioneer or visionary if you will in the field of exercise as a means of maintaining health.

RSDS the last I read was considered by many experts to be a problem with overactive sympathetic activity leading to such things as hyperemia. I am sure you know what hyperemia and bone pathologies have in common.

What about cauda equina syndrome, that is a neurological disorder that causes many many symptoms to many different organ systems.

Pills treat somethings sorry I misspoke...LOL

This is fun this reminds me of my thesis defense.....accept I had to stand in a room with 20 different scientist in a damn suite.

[Doc.Sust]

.

In a casual/social setting, it is HIGHLY inappropriate to introduce yourself as "Dr.________,"whether you be an MD/DO/Ph.d/DC/DPM/DMD, and implies that you are trying to establish superiority over the person you are talking to. Basically, if thats how you introduce yourself in non-clinical and non-academic settings, YOUR A JERKOFF.

LOL! agreed my friend.

[BrokenBricks]

I am happy to hear you limit your scope of practice to MS conditions. My biggest beef with this is that many don't. I could spend all night producing case after case.

As you well know there is a dramatic difference in practice habit among DC.

I am not an orthopedist and cannot speak to the success rate of surgery for back pain. But posting articles supporting conservative therapy over operative therapy is not either a condemnation of M.D.s nor support of chiro.

If you are honest with your patients about the service you provide than more power to you. Seeing "Physician" as your employment on your profile is not a sign that that is the case.

[BrokenBricks]

You say there are no studies but there are plenty of RCS out there. I do not profess to know that side of the literature and I know you do not either. And how much possible training in science can you have. Do you yourself have even one publication? You can sit in a class room and read a paper or two but nothing replaces doing the actual process. Same line of reasoning you used before. I could never look at a hundred pictures of gun shot wounds and know what the hell I was talking about when it came to the real thing.

Acupunture has studies that show its effective, it also has studies that show its not. Does that mean that its doesnt work, or is it inconclusive. No it means further study needs to be done. That is the scientific process, you dont make profound conclusions on one study. When you posted the Running vs walking study, that was one study. Dr Cooper has hundreds of studies that say something completely different than that one study. ACSM's own position on exercise still states that running and walking burn around the same amount of calories based on distance. Acupunture

He is an MD that flew in the face of modern medicine at the time and said that medicine needed to be more open to new ideas and move away from treatment of disease to prevention of disease. He was radical for saying such things and that was in 1969. Guess what he was called a quack, now he is considered a pioneer or visionary if you will in the field of exercise as a means of maintaining health.

RSDS the last I read was considered by many experts to be a problem with overactive sympathetic activity leading to such things as hyperemia. I am sure you know what hyperemia and bone pathologies have in common.

What about cauda equina syndrome, that is a neurological disorder that causes many many symptoms to many different organ systems.

Pills treat somethings sorry I misspoke...LOL

This is fun this reminds me of my thesis defense.....accept I had to stand in a room with 20 different scientist in a damn suite.

Let me just put that on hold a second. Do you believe in homeopathy?

What were you referring to when you said there are no studies? Of what? Homeopathy? Chiro?

[Doc.Sust]

quick story, i was raised in a medical model family, my mom was a nurse practitioner. hurt my back powerlifitng. taken immediately to an ortho. was told by the ortho that i had to quit training. done for good. got i nice script that put me in space for a few wks and didnt help at all.
against my moms wishes, i went to a chiro, first person in my family to ever do so. it worked. it worked well. i went on to continue to powerlift and my numbers speak for themselves. i am currently ranked 6th in the world for my weight class. my life would have been totally different if i didnt take an alternative approach to treatment. that is how and why i chose to do what i do for a living. not a day goes by that i am not thankful that i did not listen and tried something out side of the "box" or against the grain.

[MuscleScience]

Let me just put that on hold a second. Do you believe in homeopathy?

What were you referring to when you said there are no studies? Of what? Homeopathy? Chiro?

Did I say no studies, hmm let me reread what I said.

As far as homeopathy, I do not think may Chiro's subscribe to that. I have never been to one that does. I know its not in any core curriculum for any chiropractic schools. Some Chiros suggest the use of some herbal stuff. From what I understand they use the herbal supplement list that the German Government has put out as a point of reference.

I think you may be confusing them with Natural paths?

[Doc.Sust]

. Seeing "Physician" as your employment on your profile is not a sign that that is the case.

the reason it says that in the first place was to be vague about what i do for a living. if you havent noticed , we are on a STEROID board!!!!! not good for keep our licenses? right. as time went on here, i started speaking to more people and let the cat out of the bag. started to post articles, help people with questions etc etc.

again lets not get caught up in semantics. it is what it is. get over the title bullshit and move on

[Doc.Sust]

Did I say no studies, hmm let me reread what I said.

As far as homeopathy, I do not think may Chiro's subscribe to that. I have never been to one that does. I know its not in any core curriculum for any chiropractic schools. Some Chiros suggest the use of some herbal stuff. From what I understand they use the herbal supplement list that the German Government has put out as a point of reference.

I think you may be confusing them with Natural paths?

let me clarify, we dont pratice homeopathy or naturopathy. some go back do post grad work in this, but majority does not, i dont know one DC who does and it is not in our core curriculum

[MuscleScience]

Oh I was referring to you saying that there were no RCS for chiropractic care. They have many journals of there own. At times they even get published in medical journals though that is rare. I do not believe that the publisher of NJM will ever let a Chiropractic paper in his journal no matter how good the quality is.....LOL

And JAMA, you can forget about that. They only publish the negative, again refer to Wilkes vs AMA 1975.....

[BrokenBricks]

quick story, i was raised in a medical model family, my mom was a nurse practitioner. hurt my back powerlifitng. taken immediately to an ortho. was told by the ortho that i had to quit training. done for good. got i nice script that put me in space for a few wks and didnt help at all.
against my moms wishes, i went to a chiro, first person in my family to ever do so. it worked. it worked well. i went on to continue to powerlift and my numbers speak for themselves. i am currently ranked 6th in the world for my weight class. my life would have been totally different if i didnt take an alternative approach to treatment. that is how and why i chose to do what i do for a living. not a day goes by that i am not thankful that i did not listen and tried something out side of the "box" or against the grain.

I am glad you did well. Yet anecdotes are not quality evidence. I can understand how someone in your position made the decisions you did. As long as we understand that quality evidence is not obtained in this way.

[Doc.Sust]

But posting articles supporting conservative therapy over operative therapy is not either a condemnation of M.D.s nor support of chiro.

neither is posting bogus charts and studies that support western medicine only and MD's and condemnation of DC's.

[BrokenBricks]

let me clarify, we dont pratice homeopathy or naturopathy. some go back do post grad work in this, but majority does not, i dont know one DC who doe and it is not in out core curriculum

Would it make any difference if I posted links to a dozen websites of DC who are offering Homeopathic tx?

[Doc.Sust]

I am glad you did well. Yet anecdotes are not quality evidence. I can understand how someone in your position made the decisions you did. As long as we understand that quality evidence is not obtained in this way.

again i am not trying to prove or discredit anything. it is just a story, nothing more nothing less. i am NOT going to get into a debate about any of this. i truly dont care too. my job isnt to validate chiropractic or quote case studies.

[Doc.Sust]

Would it make any difference if I posted links to a dozen websites of DC who are offering Homeopathic tx?

no it wouldnt. again the majority are not.