Thread: 1st cycle help
01-18-2003, 12:15 PM #1
1st cycle help
I am setting my self up a first cycle and I am going for some good strength/ size gains. My current stats are age 22, 220 lbs, at around 10% bf, max bench 315, squat 405, deadlift 385, just to give you an idea.
I am thinkin of running:
1-10 deca at 400
1-10 sust at 500
what do you guys think about the stack in general and as far as gains what might I be looking at? I already posted my workouts somewhere if you wanna see those too. I will also have no problem eating a clean diet since i used to be real fat and now that i am in tip top shape I don't really wanna go back so i eat clean as it is.
01-19-2003, 12:41 AM #2
01-19-2003, 05:50 PM #3
good combo for mass gain...i have used them 3 out of my 4 cycles among numerous other
01-20-2003, 12:20 AM #4
01-20-2003, 05:34 AM #5
Hey Madmax what kind of strength gains were you seeing of this cycle, i am looking to break through a plateau and jump start gains again to get well over 3 plates
thanks for the input guys but i still have one more question too
how about for the end of something like that, i always wondered if you run clomid the same or if you should run it longer because of the way Sust takes time to leave your system?
01-20-2003, 06:14 AM #6
try using some plain old test and this is why--but then again this is only my suggestion !!! you can just do what you feel is right for you!!!
The proper use of Sustanon in a cycleby Squatdemon
One of the most misunderstood ideals when it comes to Sustanon is how to properly use it in a cycle. There is no wrong way, but there is a best way to administer proper doseages so you can fully benifit from the esters in Sustanon.
Sustanon was developed for the primary reason of hormone replacement, and because of the mix of esters most patients only needed one shot a month to keep their hormone levels balanced. Because of this design, the bodybuilder will not recieve proper doseages at once or twice a week injections. Your blood levels will fluctuate up and down continually, which is not what you want while on a cycle. You want stable levels to give your body the best chance it can have to build plenty of muscle.
All test is the same, but once only the ester is removed. People that say test is test are wrong unless you are assuming that the ester has already been removed. I have had plenty of different results fromt the different tests I have used, as well as I am sure you have too. The secret to making sus work correctly, is timing the esters so the blood levels do not fluctuate.
I will assume that everyone knows how an ester works and why one is added to the parent testosterone . With sustanon, you have 4 esters:30mg of prop60mg of phenylprop60mg of isocaproate100mg of deconateCombined to give you 250mg. Now everyone knows for themselves how much test they should take due to previous cycles or no cycles at all. Lets take each ester and see how long they will stay active in the body. 30mg of prop--Prop needs to be injected at least every other day to get the full benifits of the test. I think every third day is a little too long to wait, although some people may disagree. Now lets say you are doing a prop only cycle and injecting 30mg twice a week. You can see already that is a waste of gear. If you inject 30mg of prop twice a week you are totally wasting your time. You will NOT grow off of this, so you can basically take sus and knock it down to 220mg an amp if you are injecting once or twice a week. 60 mg of phenylprop--Phenylprop is not that much different than prop. You can get away with injecting the phenylprop ester every third day. Anyone that has taken nandrolone with a phenylprop ester knows that it is shorter acting and must be injected twice a week (for example, getwoods powder). If injected twice a week, then lets even cushion the amount, you will have all 120 mg in one week.
To recap, so far this is what you get the first week---180 mg of test in your system. If you ask me that was a waste of two amps. That is barely enough to supress the axis, and that is about all you will have happen if you inject 180mg of test per week. Now lets look at the longer acting esters in sus. 60mg of Isocaproate--Isocaproate will give you a duration of about a week before it is let go. This is not bad, but at 60 mg you are still not getting enough test to make it worth the time. 100mg of Deconate--Here is the daddy of the four esters. This is the same ester that is used in Decca-Durabolin . The deconate ester should really average out at 2 weeks, but has been said to last up to 3.This ester was added at a 100mg dose to balance out the quicker acting esters used in sustanon.
If we review one more time, we can see roughly how much test we will have in our body per week when we use sus, and hopefully you can see it is very low. You can pretty much take out the prop and phenylprop until about week 3 or 4, because once the other esters release the test and it gets time to build up in the system, the prop and phenylprop is useless. Not until around week six are you going to get your test levels high enough to do any good, and if you are on a 10 week cycle and start tapering week 8, then your test have been only relatively high for about 2-3 weeks. Call me crazy, but that is not at all what I want in a cycle. Every test cycle should be started high to hit those receptors hard, and I dont even taper at the end (but that is a different story).
The numbers that BIGDAWG and I worked on basically show that your test levels will never at one time be stable for more that a couple of weeks. Why do you think that people say they have less bloat on sus and less sides. There is so little of the short acting test in your system at one time that it is impossible to get any bloat or side effects at all. So you ask, well what is the best way to take sus then? First I would answer dont buy it. If you really want to use a 4 blend test then buy some of the old omna (not the new ones), they have more shorter acting tests in them and the blood levels will stay more equal.
If you dont believe me, ask anyone that has used the old omna and they will tell you they got quite a bit of bloat from it. Reason being is the shorter acting esters in the omna build up your blood levels quicker, hence you have the bloat factor. If someone doesnt like my first answer, then I will give them a second, "inject the sus everyday or at the least every other day." I usually get the "wholly shit, thats crazy!!!" answer. I usually tell them back, no its not crazy, its science. The actual science of sus combined with a bodybuilders needs equal injecting every day.
People seem to forget about the esters and think they are injecting all of 1750mg each week and getting every mg of it. Trust me folks, I am not talking about injecting 7 amps a week for 10 weeks, I am suggesting injecting an amp a day for 3 weeks, and letting the esters do thier work after that. When you crunch the numbers, for the first two weeks you are really only getting the prop, phenylprop, and a little of the isocaproate. Maybe about 700-750 mg for the first two weeks, and for weeks after that when all of the isocaproate and deconate kick in you will stay aroung 600-800mg for weeks following the first couple. You have a perfect taper, if you are into that, and stable test levels. If you go to eod, it will vary a bit, but not enough to really make too much of a difference.
Start off the cycle with 5 weeks of dbol while using the sus, and when you are done with the sustanon, then immediately start injecting two anabolics like eq and decca, or decca and primo/winny. This is a cycle that a lot of the pros are using called front end loading with an anabolic taper. I guinea pigged this idea when BIGDAWG and I were discussing it many months back, and damn it was a really good cycle. Not as good as 1000mg of aratest a week, but still a pretty good cycle. I have cycled sus/omna both ways, and trained relatively the same with the same kind of diet. The difference in the two cycles were like night and day, about a 15-17 pound difference, and two amps of omna a week was my first cycle too. You know, the one you are supposed to grow the most off of because of the virgin receptors. So test may be test, but you will not get the same results from every ester out there if you dont know how to time them. If you are thinking of a sus/omna cycle, give this a try. I promise you will not be disappointed, and you just may thank me and DAWG later......peace. Click here to view Reference
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01-21-2003, 05:13 AM #7
that was a good read abstrack, but why are so many for sust too cause when i was doing the research to put together a first cycle so many people have so many good things to say to.. are you just showing the down side? or you really don't think sust is worth while?
01-26-2003, 07:04 AM #8
One more question if anyone wants to answer .. what would be the best way to break down the injects for this cycle? Should I mix an amp of each and inject in the beginning and then do the same in the middle of the week because of the short esters in sust? or just shoot it all at once? or shoot the sust at one point in time and then the deca at another? someone please help me out..
01-26-2003, 11:03 AM #9New Member
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
Hey bro , that is some good read from Abs, and if u want to make a masss building cycle try the simple bread and butter stack:
1-10 test enan/500mg/wk
1-10 Deca /400mg/wk
1-4 dbol 30mg/ed
also run arimidex or liquidex at .5mg/ed for 12 wks and don't forget about clomid and hcg therpary. Personally i like to run HCG 500iu every 10 days starting second week this works great for me. And clomid therapy post cycle.
hope this helps
01-28-2003, 05:11 AM #10
thanks Proviron ,
question though i know the clomid is nessecary but is it nessecary to run the HCG on a relatively short cycle, I thought that was best for the guys running like 20 week cycles. I can see it wouldn't hurt by regulating my natural test but is it essential on a cycle like this?
Also, anyone else got an opinion?? I an trying to get this all in check before my first cycle, my diet and training with be in check, but i need all you guys cycle expertiese thanks bros
Last edited by MrPerfect; 01-28-2003 at 05:14 AM.
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