Thread: receptors shutdown
03-28-2003, 04:05 PM #1
my friend did a dbol /deca /test cycke like this is his second cycle:
week 1-4:20mg dbol
week 1-8:200mg deca
week 9-10:400mg deca
week 1-6:500mg test enan
after the 7th week he stoped gaining weight so he use anapolon as a booster he took about 20 pills of 50 mg from week 9 to week 10 and the weight still the same do u think his receptors are shuted down and if they are the clomid will make effect in the week #13??
03-29-2003, 12:57 AM #2Senior Member
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- May 2002
As far as receptor shut down goes thatís unlikely.... worn yes but shut down, no...
I am researching the effects of how long term HRT is possible with out affecting your receptors... and the 2nd and 3rd contributing factors in muscle hypertrophy. We have a lot to learn about free test levels and our hidden receptors sites.
Your friend if I put money on it is not running any anti-aromo like liquidex or proviron and is having a good vs. evil battle with our friends the estrogens... He possibly is not consuming enough good calories also, possibly or quiet frankly the true reason
your receptor sites are constantly being added to accommodate the amounts of androgens... a possibility is the affinity to a specific androgen is being worn... your are also running all long esters at a stable rate and attempting to up the dose to get a response. With out the added nutrition and workout intensity to go along with that added dose... you will get no where...
03-29-2003, 01:53 AM #3
Throw in an ECA to speed up meabolisim, ive read that recepotors will work more effciantly while on an ECA.
03-29-2003, 06:11 AM #4
Very nice mmax, keep us updated on the research it should be very interesting.
03-30-2003, 10:44 PM #5Associate Member
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- Nov 2002
bump for more info on receptors from mmax. I am curious of this as well.
03-30-2003, 10:59 PM #6
mmaximus25 - how is it that receptors can be worn? They are binding to endogenous ********* hormones everyday of your life. And your body is constently rebuilding itself and replacing old with new...
03-31-2003, 07:28 AM #7Senior Member
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- May 2002
I'm speaking of down regulation... the receptor is not put in a worn state as if talking about being worn out like a rug...No
What happens when exposed to high amount of androgens for a duration extending pass up regulation for a particular target cell and remember that amount is different for everyone.
Down regulation will occur as a protective action and prevents the target cells from overreacting to persistently high hormone levels.
Although thru cycling once and twice a year this is my theory.
You will successfully have a high androgenic hormone blood level for a duration that allows up regulation to occur (the forming of new receptors in certain target cells) before toleration and then down regulation happens you will have lowered your hormone level and the new receptors will have a chaperonin complex protecting them until the hormone is present again.
Keep in mind the people that grow faster and stronger may have a higher tolerance due to genes. And others will suffer down regulation because of a lower tolerance to the hormone. We are not equal
This theory is based on normal physiology, but there is no accurate way of knowing tolerance and affinity per individual besides trial and through idiom.
This may also be a reason behind that old school tapering tactics.
As you were saying in that other post. Those larger fellows do have more receptor sites pure and simple. How they attained them? Can only be through a successful up regulation period and lowering the hormone before down regulation occurred. Then the next cycle would prove more growth because of the added receptor sites.
What is unknown is once up regulation occurs and say all the way up to down regulation, once hormone blood levels lower will the receptors that were lost be active once the hormone is introduced again.
I also believe by cycling once and twice a year for a 2 or 3 years in the beginning gives you that base to lead into a year around cycle.
I believe tolerance can be seen clearly with how one individual grows compared to another. You may simply have the proper genetics to maintain DNA transmittal through your receptors for a longer period that another...
So people really can't give exact advice to another, but we have enough cycling data and people giving their reactions to see most have a beneficial result of their cycle.
I also believe that tolerance can be maintained at lower hormone blood levels. I donít have data or proof of that.
Last edited by mmaximus25; 03-31-2003 at 10:02 AM.
03-31-2003, 10:01 AM #8Senior Member
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- May 2002
Warrior, I cut and pasted the below post from our discussion on the other thread...
One thing I always leave out is the receptor affinity to various different derivatives of testosterone . Some target cells may have more of an affinity to a particular derivative structure and diffuse with the receptor cell as quickly as other derivatives to their more affinitive target cells...
You've been correct in my book of your assumptions I just added some more detail... Our body operate as a massive negative feed back system, something fails and red light go up and your body takes as many counter measures as possible to fix the problem, major health problems occur when the body can not successfully correct the homeostatic imbalance.
Yes we are over simplifying things by focusing so intently around target cells... But the most complex arena to dwell into is the checks and balances your endocrine system must go through each day... This discussion would be much easier if a few of you bros were all sitting around in the same room... Itís hard to cover all the ins and outs...
But I sense youíre aware of up-regulation down regulation and adaptation.
So....heres more of my spit... Up regulation can occur in any receptor site not just AR's and what is not being focused on is the effect on the rest of your body when a large amount of hormone is introduced... as a negative feed back system our bodies use hormones as messengers...
What can not accurately be described is the homeostasis of our body's when using high amounts of androgens, although any amount above a natural level would be large.
From the times of Walter Cannon and his homeostasis theory our body's have such great homeostatic controls that you will have successfully effected your entire body through manipulation of even one single hormone.
I'm going to go back to the receptor topic... This info in my head does not come from studies or articles. I have an Anatomy text book and a physiology text book from Elaine N. Marieb... perhaps some here taking a physiology course may be familiar with this information.
There is no clear tolerance or time frame it would take an individuals receptors to down regulate... all receptors are not equal and can be described as dynamic target cells and less dynamic... but when up-regulation does occur as you know the more dynamic target cells for which ever specific hormone will form additional receptor sites. This is not rare as we have many homeostatic imbalance symptoms daily, weekly, all the time; most anomalies are due to a compulsive or erratic hormonal disturbance.
Since we are focusing on steroid hormones and the direct gene activity my statements come from functional properties of the hormones target cells.
Since steroid hormones and thyroid hormones diffuse easily into their target cells, theses two have a prime arena for up regulation, although, half life is the only culprit for dosing a particular hormone.
One may not realize that the vast majority of hormones injected into our bodies are under a cleansing attack almost immediately... different per individual. Yet the majority of the hormone is removed by our kidneys and liver. But keep in mind hormones are so powerful that target organs are affected at low concentrations.
The constant dosing that occurs in AAS users must be done to keep circulating hormones in the blood to keep a particular rate of release and at what ever speed, speed of is inactivation as a constant removal process is ever applying.
This is one reason why saturation can not truly happen, your body is in constant effort to keep in homeostasis...
Because steroid hormones are diffused by their target cells in a quick fashion this creates an arena of affinity, tolerance, up regulation, down regulation, and the presence of chaperonin complexes.
The only event that would cause up regulation is high blood levels of said hormones... the affinity of the target cell would cause the forming of new receptors to accommodate the high blood level. The tolerance is unknown and specific to individual. The two ending scenarios are if levels are dropped in a timely fashion the additional receptor sites will have a chaperonin complex response and be protected from proteolysis... Once the hormone is present again the complex dissociates and those additional receptors sites will once again bind to DNA and influence transcription... However if the dosage is not lowered in an individualistic time manner down regulation will occur, not only to prevent the target cells from overreacting but because hormones effect not only the number and affinity of their receptors but also receptors that respond to other hormones.
EX progesterone induces a loss of estrogen receptors in the uterus, antagonizing estrogen's actions. On the other hand, estrogen causes those same cells to produce more progesterone receptors, enhancing their ability to respond to progesterone.
My statements in the above come from Ch 17 of Human Anatomy & Physiology.
(Steroid Hormones and Direct Gene Activation CH17 The Endocrine System p612 of Human Anatomy & Physiology fifth edition.
Elaine N Marieb, R.N.,PhD.)
Yes the body will have multiple homeostatic imbalances due too the high amount of androgens but you must focus from area to area. It is too hard to explain to individuals that are not well versed or of understanding of the body's detailed functions to jump from focus to focus... I think you and Warrior understand this. My only problem is retrieving data from other that text books. Online articles spur my reading but I am coming straight from a physiological stand point. That is another reason why I send questions to different university professors, in hope to get confirmation on text book reading.
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