Anabolics
Search More Than 6,000,000 Posts
Results 1 to 7 of 7
  1. #1
    Stat1951 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Lakewood. CO
    Posts
    26

    Anti-aromatase / Anti-E / Estrogen Reducers

    Not sure if anyone can help out with this topic, but here goes...

    I'm a "former lifter" (age 53) trying to get back into the fitness game after some major time off due to a couple of neck/disc surgeries - and then being diagnosed a few months ago as hypogonadal and put on AndroGel (first 5 grm packet daily and now bumped up to 7.5 grm packet daily).

    This physiological dosage of T has helped noticeably, but still having problems with overall energy, mild depression, lowered libido (but obviously better than the "Zero" leveel that I had before), and motivation. My research shows me that there might be a problem with a good portion of the supplemented T being converted to E (specifically E2) via the aromatase process. Not to where the E2 is completely "out of control", but sufficiently enough to raise the E2 out of the optimal range (which would probably also reduce Free T down from its optimal range also).

    With local docs and endos who simply won't order full-range testing, my first question is this: How accurate are the marketed saliva tests for aspects such as E2 and Free T?

    Next question deals with the various compounds that are Anti-aromatase / Anti-E / Estrogen Reducers.... I realize that most postings deal with these compounds from the viewpoint of PCT, but what about a situation like the one outlined above, where the testosterone is being submitted externally and the concern is with keeping E2 levels from getting above an optimal range?

    In reading thru hypogonadism forums, there seems to be a strong focus (by those who can manage to get a doc to prescribe it) towards Arimidex ... but I notice also that even with the greatly reduced doses of the Arimidex, that most of the users on those forums have a lot of difficulty with keeping E2 levels from getting too low as well as too high. Seems to be a constant yo-yo effect (with the users feeling lousy at either end of the spectrum - too much or too little).

    So what products would be good to control E2 levels (should one's testing - saliva possibly - confirm a too high level)?

    Would 6-OXO or formestane be reasonable (i.e., effective and cost-effective) options? Are either PH products that are going to end up getting banned? For somewhat milder purposes such as this, are products such as DIM, Chrysin, or even soy isoflavones, etc., worth considering (thinking back to Dr. Shippen's book at this point).

    Thanks for any possible information you might have - or be able to point me towards....

    LRS

  2. #2
    seanw's Avatar
    seanw is offline Banned
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Aussie in Singapore
    Posts
    2,372
    Man this sh!t is deep. Bro you might get a better idea if you post this in the Steroid Forum, there are some doc's and a lot on knowledgable guys there. Good luck.

  3. #3
    scotty082865's Avatar
    scotty082865 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    72
    Quote Originally Posted by Stat1951
    This physiological dosage of T has helped noticeably, but still having problems with overall energy, mild depression, lowered libido (but obviously better than the "Zero" leveel that I had before), and motivation. My research shows me that there might be a problem with a good portion of the supplemented T being converted to E (specifically E2) via the aromatase process. Not to where the E2 is completely "out of control", but sufficiently enough to raise the E2 out of the optimal range (which would probably also reduce Free T down from its optimal range also).

    With local docs and endos who simply won't order full-range testing, my first question is this: How accurate are the marketed saliva tests for aspects such as E2 and Free T?
    Not completely sure how accurate but I can't imagine you would have problems having your doc order an E2 test, especially if you are willing to pay out of pocket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stat1951
    Next question deals with the various compounds that are Anti-aromatase / Anti-E / Estrogen Reducers.... I realize that most postings deal with these compounds from the viewpoint of PCT, but what about a situation like the one outlined above, where the testosterone is being submitted externally and the concern is with keeping E2 levels from getting above an optimal range?

    ... but I notice also that even with the greatly reduced doses of the Arimidex , that most of the users on those forums have a lot of difficulty with keeping E2 levels from getting too low as well as too high. Seems to be a constant yo-yo effect (with the users feeling lousy at either end of the spectrum - too much or too little).

    So what products would be good to control E2 levels (should one's testing - saliva possibly - confirm a too high level)?
    The first thing you need to know is your E2 levels. Your goal needs to be to maintain a T::E2 (Serum/total T to Estradiol) raito of about 40::1 or better. Blood testing is most accurate. In Atlanta, we can go to local facilities and have the test done without a doctor's order. You may want to look in yoru area. The place in ATL is called any-test.

    For me, 1 mg of Arimidex daily woudl not even dent my E2 levels. I quickly moved on to Femera at 2.5 mg daily and that drove it too low. I have settled into 2.5 mg per week and maintain E2 around 15-20 pg/ml with Serum T in the 1500 ng/dl range (implanted pellets).

    Quote Originally Posted by Stat1951
    Would 6-OXO or formestane be reasonable (i.e., effective and cost-effective) options? Are either PH products that are going to end up getting banned? For somewhat milder purposes such as this, are products such as DIM, Chrysin, or even soy isoflavones, etc., worth considering (thinking back to Dr. Shippen's book at this point).

    Thanks for any possible information you might have - or be able to point me towards....

    LRS
    6-OXO is expensive as are prescription anti-inflamitories. You might want to check into research chemicals but, that too can be very risky. To defer costs I use a research-chem version of femera with sucess but, I would not recommend this to others for liability reasons.

    I have been personally diagnosed with hypogonadism so it's an area I have really taken interest in. My therapy is implanted Testosterone pellets. Androgel and Testim caused my DHT to rise too high. The pellets allow me to maintain a very high level of total T with excellent Free and Bioavailable T.

    If I can help with any of this feel free to post of PM me.

    Scotty

  4. #4
    scotty082865's Avatar
    scotty082865 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    72

  5. #5
    nsashbl's Avatar
    nsashbl is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    161
    I'm only 35 but went through similar crap with endo's and pc's. Ended up using Dr John, (swale). Go to SBI and read the HRT board. He is a mod there.

  6. #6
    bluethunder is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    2,015
    The key is the balance of test to estro ratio's. I too have been scripted for androgel at 5grams daily just recently but have not purchased it yet due to high cost. With this over time test levels may reach just normal . The slower realeasing compounds help minimize the conversion to estro. As far as saliva testing it is very reliable and I have done it for $50 it test total/free test and estrogen along with the ratio. I know it works because I was on test-p for 12wks and they called to say I am off the chart am I taking anything. Of course my estro levels were also much higher evan when I was taking a serm and ai. You never wish to completely get rid of your estrogens as they do help control some bp and cholestreol levels.
    Last edited by bluethunder; 11-30-2004 at 10:35 AM.

  7. #7
    Stat1951 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Lakewood. CO
    Posts
    26

    RE: E-2, etc.

    Sorry I didn't reply earlier but have been having all kinds of testing done.

    Apparently I am having some major hormonal issues across the board. Cortisol levels at six times the maximum normal range. Adrenaline hormones (norepinephrine, etc.) way BELOW normal, etc. And, of course, the ultra-low hypogonadism with the abnormally low testosterone . A tumor was found inside my left adrenal gland but some advanced testing (LOTS of advanced testing) has indicated that it is benign and is NOT "bioloigically active", so has therefore been ruled out as the cause of these various hormonal problems - though none of the experts can specify what is causing the problem!

    I should also point out that these problems (and a number of actual physical symptoms) came on very suddenly in June/July of 2004.

    Anyway, my latest testing that specifically checked the sex hormones showed a Total T of 358 (reference range of 200 – 1000), Free T of 112.8 (reference range of 40-240), and Estradiol of 25 (reference range 0 – 60 pg/ml). This is on 7.5 gram AndroGel daily with extra zinc and one DIM tablet taken daily. I was advised that E2 levels should be maintained in the area of 20 - 30 as an "optimal range".

    With doctor being reluctant to increase AndroGel dosage, would use of any particular supplements increase Free T levels without driving E2 too low?

    Larry

    Larry

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •