Over 40, First Cycle Suggestions?

**johnsomebody** · 05-12-2002, 10:18 PM

Hey out there. I've been lifting for over 15 years, am right now 224 lbs at 6'5". I have no idea of my bf but my waist is about 37, chest 49. Anyway, I'm in my 40s and have always wanted to do at least one cycle before I head off to the great beyond and thought I'd better get around to it before it's too late. Did order some Primo, which I intended to stack with winstrol depot, but it looks like Customs got it (the delivery co is asking for my SS number, though they insist it's cleared customs, looks like I shouldn't be giving it since the pros here suspect a trap).
Anyway, any cycle suggestions? Or is it not worth the trouble?
Thanks much...

**Tarzan** · 05-13-2002, 07:27 AM

Welcome aboard

I would suggest you spend a few weeks reading through the posts on this board. Along with the profiles and training sections to get some ideas. Everyone is different in there stat's, ability and goals you need to figure out what's best for you. No one can just give you all the answers. However there are some basic guide lines you should follow.

Good luck

**johnsomebody** · 05-13-2002, 11:04 AM

Actually, maybe I should rephrase the question. Is it too late to start at this age? I'm wondering if anyone else has and if they had good results, and if so, with what.I know from reading other posts (and I have been readinng tons -this site has to be the best) Lustydog started not long ago at 46 -how's that going -if you're reading this? Or anyone else?

***JohnnyB*** · 05-13-2002, 11:21 AM

Bro it not to late, I'm 46 and going to do my first cycle. We do have different thing to deal with. We definitely need to have lab work done, as everyone should.

Yes there are bro here in thier 40's cycling. Keep reading and researching come up with a cycle and stack. The brothers will give thier input, to help you with your decision, but it will definitely be your call.

Wlecome to AR

JohnnyB

**johnsomebody** · 05-13-2002, 12:59 PM

Thanks JohnnyB for the welcome, it's good to hear from someone at my age level. I've been researching a lot and decided on a Primo/Winny cycle which may be wimpy around these parts but is plenty for me especially for the first time. Could I ask you what your planning on cycling with and how long you've been lifting? I'm not looking to get huge since I scare too many people as it is, but I'd be really happy to drop 5-10lbs of bf and add 10-12 lmb if it'll be long term.

***JohnnyB*** · 05-13-2002, 03:35 PM

I'm going to go with a EQ 200mg and test enan 250mg every 5 to 6 days for 10 weeks. Still doing more research sence I won't be doing this until the fall. Thinking of maybe adding some winny at the end around week 8-13 then start my colmid therapy week 14-16. Not to sure about the winny yet. I need to drop some more b/f before I start this proposed cycle. Hey who knows by that time I could change my mind. I'm thinking of going with the femara for an anti-e. It's all up in the air right now, still searching for more information.

JohnnyB

**Canes4Ever** · 05-13-2002, 04:11 PM

Welcome Johnsomebody,

and take JohnnyB's advice, get the bloodwork done before you think about doing ANYTHING !

**iron4life79** · 05-13-2002, 04:55 PM

welcome bro,

hang out, and read and research your ass off. youre never too old to learn, and i for one dont think youre too old to get started either. lots of good brothers on this board as well as the main board. plenty of knowledge floating around out there. good luck.

peace bb79

**johnsomebody** · 05-13-2002, 05:09 PM

Yow, JohnnyB, sounds like a heavy duty cycle, but I'm Mr. Cautious about everything myself. I thought if my first one goes well I'd consider more the kind of thing you're doing after that. I'd be realy interested to hear how you do, especially long term which is my biggest concern.
How long have you been lifting, by the way?
Thanks for the advice, Kevin. I've been pretty regular with checkups and know most of my stats for Cholesterol and blood pressure, PSA and all that (all low low low). Is there anything else I should be concerned about? What does one look for on a blood test?

**dyno45** · 05-14-2002, 11:35 AM

Hey Johnnyb, Welcome.

What everyone else said. Research is the key which is all available to you here. There is a search button at the top of the page. Just input your subject of curiosity and you'll get all kinds of answers. This also avoids answering the same questions over and over again. (no flame intended btw) I am 39 and am currently doing my fourth cycle. Started 1.5 yrs ago. I have had good success. I personally have bulked because I have no need for the cutting cycles. Everyone will say I'm lucky that way, I beg to differ. What ever you choose, test is always a good choice when running a cycle, even when cutting. Which one is up to you. Keep us posted on your progress.

***JohnnyB*** · 05-14-2002, 03:43 PM

When the time comes for my cycle I will definently keep everyone posted for now it's about dropping the b/f and reading everything I can get my hands on.

JohnnyB

**Canes4Ever** · 05-14-2002, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by JohnnyB
When the time comes for my cycle I will definently keep everyone posted for now it's about dropping the b/f and reading everything I can get my hands on.

JohnnyB

Smart choice JohnnyB, listen to the smart brother on AR. I am doing the same thing, dropping my BF (down about 4% in 6 weeks) before I start my 1st cycle.

**Ajax** · 05-15-2002, 08:32 PM

johnsomebody: you know, you might want to consider using test. En or Cyp in your cycle instead of Primo. Sure, it might not be as gentle (some same Primo it TOO gentle, i.e., it's a "weak" anabolic ), but getting a boost of testosterone in your system over age 40 does wonders!

I am 40 and did my first cycle this year. On my second one now. ANd I really like what the testosterone does for me--on top of building muscles! (Hell, I have my 24 year old GF begging for mercy in the bedroom!

) So, if you wife can handle having a horny 18 year old in a 46 year old body, you might want to consider test. in the cycle!

**johnsomebody** · 05-15-2002, 10:05 PM

Thanks much for the input, everybody. You guys are great.

I have to admit Test sounds pretty tempting even if it made me SHRINK. I'm thinking I'd have to get cast iron underpants or something for the 24/7 erections I keep hearing about -I've already made the mental note "wear fanny pack on the FRONT" if I ever go on it. (By the way -if any of you haven't read the thread "Testosterone Cypinate and jacking off" from 10-25-01, check it out, it's hilarious.)

Thing that appeals to me about Primo/Winny from what I've been reading is that it's just as much a "cutting" as building cycle -the best case long term results I'd go for would be adding 10lbs. lbm and loosing 5-10lbs. bf. Most things I read say the gains aren't awesome but long-lasting. I'm not looking to get huge since I'm already 6'5"@224 and I scare too many people as it is.

That being said I'm wondering if being on Test had any effect on your personality while you were on it? No wake of smashed furniture and such? It takes all the effort I can muster to keep from regularly heaving my computer through the window as it is, from what I hear (though it's mostly about Sustanon ) I'm afraid I just may with even a slight testo boost. (Plus being nice to nice to clients is a BIG part of my business.)

Anyway, thanks again!

**Ajax** · 05-17-2002, 04:03 AM

Answering your questions (not in order).

Don't get sucked into the idea that you can put on mass AND lose fat when you do a cycle. If you are bulking (adding muscle) you need excess calories, if you are cutting (losing fat) you need to have a caloric deficit.

Although the stack can be used for bulking or cutting, what determines if it's a bulking or cutting stack is whether you have a caloric excess (bulk) or a caloric deficit (cut)

If you try to do both bulking and cutting you might wind up achieving nothing!

People take AS on cutting cycles more to enhance muscle qualities and prevent muscle loss--not pack on muscle.

So choose: bulk or cut. Do one or the other and do it 100%. Don't try to do both at the same time!

Testosterone can make you more irritable and little things can annoy you far more than when you are on test. However, taking some test. is not going to launch you out of control. If you can normally control youself when you are pissed off about something, you can still control yourself when you are on test. If you have a pre-existing problem controlling your anger / emotions, then test. will aggravate it.

As for the woodies: if you are over 40 you won't be dancing around with a 24/7 stiffy, but you will find your Johnson is more inclined to snap to attention. Especially when the situation demands it--and occcasionally when it doesn't

(I made the mistake of not packing any underpants in my gym bag this week. After the gym I was supposed to meet a friend at a gogo bar here in Bangkok. I ended up going with my manhood somewhat unfettered in my pants and, I must admit, with all the test. in my system it did give the girls something to giggle about!)

**johnsomebody** · 05-17-2002, 01:03 PM

Thanks for the info, Ajax, and for your Personal Experience thread. Makes me wish I lived in Thailand too.
I wish I had more time to discuss this but I'm swamped with work right now. (I'm self-employed so the only one I'm screwing up by taking time out is me, unfortunately.) Anyway, I appreciate the advice.
I have been reading a lot about A S and I keep seeing the advice that Primo, maybe stacked with Winstrol or Test, is good for newbies, especially over 30 newbies, like me, which is where I got the idea. One typical quote "it tends to lessen water retention and harshness when stacked with more heavy duty testosterone injectables, like Omnadren /sustanon 250, Cypoinate/propionate , ect. (sic)"
There was a thread at Elite (www.elitefitness.com/sites/hulkster/july97.html) by somebody named Quadzilla that sounded good, and he concludes "...for those of you who are conservative first timers, Primobolan would be a good way to start off and see how you like being on anabolics." Let's see.. first timer, conservative ...sounded like me. I've also read several threads by people who've both lost fat AND gained muscle on a cycle, which sounded cool, though I'm not sure at the moment WHAT they were on.
Lean body mass would be great but a lot of what I've seen happen to people I know who were on steroids (though this was years ago) is that a lot of their bulk was, of course, water. Looking like a toy balloon, even temporarily, is something I'd like to avoid as much as possible, and I still see it all the time, like on a lot of the pix posted here. (I'm averse to it not just because I think it looks dorky but maybe mostly because most women don't find it appealing.)
Anyway, I'm still doing the research, and I'll seriously consider your advice (maybe I could stack Primo with Sust, etc. etc.) I appreciate the info and it's fun reading your posts -you're a good writer and a good sport for taking so much time to answer my naive questions.
Man, I HAVE to get back to work! Gotta go...

**johnsomebody** · 05-17-2002, 01:22 PM

By the way, Ajax, if congress ever considers repealing current A S laws, your "Personal Experiences" post ought to be presented as evidence. Definitely a classic, or at least a sticky.

**monsterback** · 05-17-2002, 01:27 PM

I have to agree with Ajax, that you should ad some test. I did my first cycle at 49 Deca and Sust. Pretty light too. I gained 12 lbs. and lost 2 inches on my waist. I thought this was awesome. Deca and Sust is supposed to be a bulking cycle but I am more ripped than I have been in years. 10 weeks after cycle and still pretty cut.

The Sust. definitely helped in the wood department. Even though I was using Deca. I agree you should ad some test and forget the winnie. Primo and some kind of test would be a good first cylce. Nice and safe.

Post cylce be sure you have some Clomid or HCG . I delayed taking HCG after my first cycle and because of the long half life of Deca, I had a short period of D.D.three weeks after my cycle ended. It lasted about a week.

Good Luck and Welcome
Monsterback

**johnsomebody** · 05-17-2002, 11:09 PM

Hey Monsterback, it's' great to hear from another geezer. Looks like stacking Primo with Sust would be the way to go for me. What I keep reading about Primo is that while the gains may not be as great, the consensus seems to be that the results are more long-lasting and also that one is less likely to bloat, which are what appeals to me.

Could I ask you how much and how long you did the Deca /Sust? Your results are exactly what I'm looking for too -my big quiestion is, did you keep them long term?

Thanks much for responding. I really appreciate the feedback.

**monsterback** · 05-18-2002, 07:33 AM

Johnsomebody,

I ran the following cycle:

WK 1 200 deca
WK 2 200 Deca 250 Sust
Wk 3-6 300 Deca 250 Sust
Wk 7 225 Deca 250 Sust.
Wk 8 150 Deca 100 Sten (Ran out of Sust)

I started at 197 and ended the cycle at 209 lbs. It has been 10 wks and I am at 207 as of yesterday. I have definite gains in my back, arms and and quads. My waist went from 35 to 33 inches.

My diet I added to 2 whey protein drinks a day during the cycle. I was on a fairly low carb diet. Very low carbs at night. No carbs after 8 PM. If I had trouble sleeping, due to low blood sugar. I would get up and do a protein drink. I am still maintaining the extra protein.

If I had it to do over I would have run the cycle 10 weeks. Things were really starting to kick but I was out of gear.

The only reason I tapered the deca was because of the quantity of gear I had. The next cycle I am running is Primo and Sustanon No tapering for 10 weeks. My wife ran Primo & Deca when I was running my cycle, she made great gains and kept it all.

I hope this helps.
Monsterback

**johnsomebody** · 05-18-2002, 12:48 PM

Excellent, that helps a lot. And congratulations on keeping the results -sounds great. Thanks much for responding. If I ever get the stuff I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.Looks like it may be a while. Meantime I'll keep reading...

**cjt** · 05-23-2002, 01:05 AM

good information here...

i'm 40yo 6'1", 195 train hard and eat right. i just started my 1st cycle after several months of research. what i learned is that i still have a lot to learn

anyway, i boiled all my research and studying message boards down to 2 programs, more bulk, or more definition:

bigger:

- 1- 10 weeks 500mg test (get more info on best bet, but half the people love sust250, half hate it)
- 1 - 10 weeks 400mg deca
- 7-12 weeks 50mg/winny ed
-clomid post
- novaldex on hand, and i'd run proviron or liquidex throughout

cut (this is what i'm on currently, 1st cycle, and really happy with results so far):

- 1 - 10 weeks 400mg Equipoise
- 7 - 12 50mg ed winny
- clomid post
- novaldex on hand (shouldn't need it though)

i don't think you'll be happy with primo unless you stack it with at least 500mg of test, and don't pyramid it, run the correct dosage all the way through. keep researching, and good luck.

**johnsomebody** · 05-23-2002, 11:16 AM

Hey, thanks for the input, bro, I appreciate it.

I've been reading a lot for weeks now but it seems like the more I read the more CONFUSED I'm getting. Here's a post from another board I just read last night -

"If I had to do it all again, I would have taken 500-600mg total of primo (or eq if money is a concern) straight for a ten week period. No pyramids, no tapering.

The fact is an individual who has not used steroids before will gain very well on just about anything. The above mentioned cycle, combined with the proper diet and weight lifting, will result in a 20 pound of net gain for a newbie."

My original plan was just Primo then end with Winny the last 3 weeks. The Primo-only thing appealed to me because if nothing much happened I could hit a harder cycle in 6 mos or so, no big loss, but if I made good gains (and I'd be happy with 10-15 lbs) i would have spared myself the whole inflate/deflate thing I've seen so many times in people who use test. Getting HYUGE is great, but it's just not my goal, especially for someone at geezer level like me. I also keep reading that Primo gains aren't massive but are permanent, or at least long-lasting, which is way more important for me as well.

But I've read good things about EQ/Winny and I'd like to hear how it goes for you. How far are you into your cyle right now? I was thinking that's what I'd do for a second cycle.

**comet** · 05-30-2002, 09:01 PM

yeah, like they said, make sure you get bloodwork, becuase your bodys health should be a bigger concern at the begining of the mid-ages ...

also, tell your doctor ...

he is not there to rat you out, or tell on anyone ...

just be like, can you tell me how my health is, and my blood and shit like that .... and im thinking about taking some steroids ... ( of course hes going to try to convince you to not do it ) , but if things seem ok, then do what u want ...

**Ajax** · 05-30-2002, 11:18 PM

Lean body mass would be great but a lot of what I've seen happen to people I know who were on steroids (though this was years ago) is that a lot of their bulk was, of course, water. Looking like a toy balloon, even temporarily, is something I'd like to avoid as much as possible, and I still see it all the time, like on a lot of the pix posted here. (I'm averse to it not just because I think it looks dorky but maybe mostly because most women don't find it appealing.)

Don't get too worried about the bloat from testosterone . The bloat is mostly from the estrogen that the testostyerone converts to, so if you use an aromatase inhibitor (Arimidex , Liquidex, Proviron ), that will prevent estrogen from forming, thus no gyno and no bloat.

Bloat was a lot more common in days gone by: there were no aromatase inhibitors so it was a side effecct yu had to live with--at least temporarily during the cycle. Now it's treatable.

I am using Proviron right now (50-75mg ED) and my friend remarked over the weekend that he was suprised that I didn't look at all bloated...

I don't have experience with Primo, so all I know about it is second hand. I would have tried it my first cycle, but the cost was just WAY too high form me. Now that I have tried more common cycles like Test/Deca and have learned to manage the side effects, I would go that way in the future.

I've been reading a lot for weeks now but it seems like the more I read the more CONFUSED I'm getting.

Good! That confusion is not a bad thing. It means that you are doing enough research to see all your options--a very wise choice. As you keep researching and ask questions, the choices will start to narrow and you will find the solution that's right for you.

So what's the latest update?

**cjt** · 05-30-2002, 11:42 PM

again, i highly recommend EQ/winny, i'm half way through it, and it's amazing. great results, no sides, i'm eating clean and training really hard, and results to date are stunning...i'm really happy with my 1st cycle selection. i researched for 6 months and spent countless hours on this and the fitness board, all gave me great advice, and my cycle changed quite a bit from my initial research. i'd highly recommend Eq/winny...

**johnsomebody** · 05-31-2002, 12:33 PM

Thanks much, guys, for the input. I appreciate it.

Your right, Ajax, things HAVE changed from years ago. The selection of stuff is so big now it's actually intimidating -"what if I mix this with that, will I need THIS too?" Is what I keep finding myself thinking. I have to admit it makes my original plan of Primo only seem appealing again just because it seems so simple.

Hey cjt, I was going to ask you how it was going. Thanks for posting again. I was beginning to think the EQ thing might be the way to go since it apparently didn't require stacking with additional test like most people recommend with Primo.

Let me ask that as a question, actually. If I get the argument, using Primo alone (I'd planned only 200/week) is still going to suppress natural T levels, which is why something like Sust is recommended contiguously.

Have I got that right?

Thanks again guys.

**johnsomebody** · 05-31-2002, 12:46 PM

Oh hey, thanks, Comet, for the input too. I actually just SAW my doctor recently and asked if I could get a complete blood workup done and he said after checking me over he saw no need to so I didn't press it (this is how it goes in an HMO, in my experience -they won't do a thing until it absolutely has to be done). I didn't mention my plans though, maybe because I'm chicken. I did get a copy of my last blood test from a few months ago but it's only for cholesterol, blood sugar, what looks like liver chemistry (NA, K, creatine) plus a complete urinalysis.

Is that all I need or should I be looking for more? I've got a copy of one that was done 20 years ago that was more extensive. I've also read T levels would be good to know and I know that's not on here. I'm considering just finding some clinic and paying for it myself, right now.

Thanks again for the input.

**Ajax** · 06-01-2002, 01:56 AM

/>
You mentioned the complexity of drug use and Anabolic steroids : you might like this thread on Anabolic Fitness:
The Anabolic Cascade and the Growing Problem of Polypharmacy.

To summarize: we take steroids to grow, then take drugs to combat the side effects and more drugs to combat the side effects of the drugs to combat the side effects--isn't this getting a little insane?

**johnsomebody** · 06-01-2002, 07:57 AM

Amen, brother!

**PURE ADRENALINE** · 06-01-2002, 08:29 PM

I know some may feel this is extreme for a first cycle but IMO you should also look into researching HGH...at 40 I believe ironmaster told me men lose like 50% of natural GH production. This may be one of the best things you may look into as it has great "anti-aging effects" I am looking into running it for 6 months with 2 heavy cycles in it.

Not recommended for first time but I do feel saying HGH at 40 is a good option to consider...

JIMHO

**Ajax** · 06-02-2002, 01:27 AM

HGH is sounding better and better to me. I think that doing a cycle (or two) of regualr AS first get's the motor jump-started and lets you see what AS alone can do--then try the HGH; at least you will know what HGH is doing and what AS is doing....

**johnsomebody** · 06-02-2002, 05:42 PM

I haven't read much about it but it's interesting that it's mentioned in the article on steroids in baseball in the latest Sports Illustrated. On the positive side it calls it the "rebar" to steroids ' "concrete". On the negative it talks about how it can grow/disort your skull. (I always thought at least one of the "H"s in TripleH stood for HGH.) I also assume it can do the same to the bones in one's fingers, since that's another symptom of acromegally, the condition caused by excess HGH.