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  1. #1
    Kurt is offline New Member
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    Thumbs up 21 years natural-time for 1st Cycle

    Hello everyone from a newcomer

    Been reading and researching anabolic review[and more]to get as much insight as possible.
    Need to double check what the source claims.
    Time sure flies when you are on the site

    Quick Backround.
    39 years old-turning 40 in October.
    Height-1m85cm[6 1" I think]
    Weight-90kg [198 pounds I think]
    Body Fat-Between 8%-10% depending on level of aerobic activity

    Been training from the age of 19 and today I am probably as dedicated to training [if not more so] than I was at age 19.
    Unfortunately I probably do overtrain because if I do not have a great workout I do not feel like I have had a work out at all.
    Trained with competitive BB's who have used AS,and eventhough I have considered on numerous occasions seeing what they can do I have maintained training naturally.
    From a strength angle I do not require any assistance as the years of training have basically compounded my strength levels.
    Unfortunately I have literally got to a point[reached some time ago]where any size gains are virtually non-existent[Even with diet adjustments,supplements,increased rest periods,change in training methods etc]
    To compound this I also wrestle twice a week and the aerobic workout obviously does not help in building up any extra muscle mass.

    What do I want to accomplish?
    First goal is to get out of this "stagnant zone" at least to the next level where hopefully I can start adding some size again.
    Literally just to get the ball rolling in the "uphill direction"
    If it is possible to include a AS CYCLE to get the ball rolling again,great.
    If it is possible to start training naturally again after the cycle is over and hopefully still make some natural gains,great.

    I have in the meantime started the following.
    Deca Durabolin -200mg a week[Had first shot on Monday]
    Run this through 4-8 weeks depending on the results.

    Is it necessary to complete the course with CLOMID?
    Starting a week after the last injection?

    With 200mg/week would any other side effects be evident?
    [Gyno?],[Water Retention][Loss of Libido][Sleep Problems][Testicle Shrinkage][Hair Loss]
    Seem to find it difficult to fall asleep and not sleeping as restfully?
    I have read through all the editorial content on this and what I am really after here is practical advice in terms of what to expect.

    I have been advised that the 200mg dosage should not result any any side effects and consequently Novadex/Proviron need not be on standby?

    What gains am I hoping for?
    To add in the region of 5kg[11 pounds]of quality muscle.
    To keep the gains after the cycle
    Is this possible?Or could gains be more.
    Naturally I understand the importance of eating as well as possible with quality <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=PROTEIN" target="_blank">protein</a> etc during the duration of the cycle.

    Hopefully the fact that I have a decent amount of muscle maturity will mean a catalyst such as Deca D can ignite some growth again.
    Really pisses me off when I see someone who has trained for a short period of time carrying on as if they have all the experience in the world.
    About time my physique started again to look like a guy who has paid his DUES IN THE GYM!

    I hope you can help.

    Kurt

  2. #2
    iron4life79's Avatar
    iron4life79 is offline Retired Moderator
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    wow..........a lot of questions.

    i'll try to answer at least a few........ deca at that dose should produce no noticeable sides. my problem with this cycle is twofold: the cycle is no where near long enough. 8 weeks should be the minimum. i prefer 10-12.
    nolva and proviron will do next to nothing for you if gyno appears, as deca is progesterone gyno based, not estro related. bromo, cabergoline, pergolide, and high doses of b6 will help, if this side occurs.
    clomid is a must.... this aas will shut you down just as hard if not harder than most. thats why clomid is so important for you. this will help to bring back natural test levels post cycle.
    if it were me, and this is just my opinion.....i would up the deca to 400mg/week, and add 500mg of test enanthate per week.
    hope this helps you some......

    peace I4L
    Last edited by iron4life79; 04-23-2003 at 02:43 PM.

  3. #3
    ironmaster's Avatar
    ironmaster is offline Associate Member
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    Well, as I4L said, a first cycle should be based on testosterone . Deca is fine as part of the stack, and I would also recommend dbol the first 4 weeks. Sure, have some anti-e's around in case you need them, and HCG + clomid for recovery. 8 weeks is the minimum I would consider.
    You won't be happy with the results of just the 200mg of deca. Like a lot of first time users, you want to err on the side of caution, but let me tell you, at 54, I know what it takes for good results in older guys. Around 42 is when I hit the final plateau as well. I had taken an extensive time off from gear, and found that I was gaining nothing but fat no matter how hard I trained. If you are serious about hangin with the big boys at the gym, it will take some calculated dosing as you get older.

  4. #4
    Kurt is offline New Member
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    21years natural-time for ist cycle

    Thanks for the feedback.
    RE-Gyno,what are the first warning signs to look out for?
    Itchy nipples etc.
    How quickly do these side effects manifest themselves?
    My source has stock but I do not necces. want to purchase the prog. inhibitors and than sit with them after the cycle if no gyno was experienced.
    As far the prog inhibitors Ironlife named a few.
    Is there a particular one that is recommended or would just very high dosage of VITB6 do the job.
    I seems that some of these inhibitors are actually more toxic than the AS?
    Can anyone say for certain how common gyno is with Deca and at Dosage of 200mg.

    Considering the TEST ADVICE? and other recommendations.

  5. #5
    iron4life79's Avatar
    iron4life79 is offline Retired Moderator
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    kurt,
    its fine if you dont want to purchase the stuff to combat the progesterone sides............but what if they do happen to make an appearance, and you have nothing?
    youre erring on the side of caution with the dosages, but yet dont want to protect yourself from sides? ALWAYS, ALWAYS, have an anti e handy, as you never know.
    also, since this is your 1st cycle, you have no idea how youre going to react to the deca or test.......getting the picture here?
    ironmaster gave you standup advice on the post cycle stuff(as well as the rest). run with it.
    b6 is a last resort, as far as i'm concerned. the other stuff i mentioned is much more effective, provided its dosed properly.

    peace I4L

  6. #6
    Kurt is offline New Member
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    Getting somewhere.
    Of the anti e for DECA GYNO,which would be the most effective to get?
    And any suggestions on dosage?
    Most users of Deca I have spoken to,including my source,have never experienced Deca Gyno.
    There seems to be abit on confusion re this ,and I have provided the articles on the differences on estrogen and prog to my source.
    But as you say it makes sense to be cautious regarding all aspects.
    Last question:Warning signs of GYNO?
    What should I look out for?

  7. #7
    Kurt is offline New Member
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    BUMP

  8. #8
    shlape's Avatar
    shlape is offline New Member
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    Thumbs up

    I hear ya!

    I've hit the 14 year mark trying the natural bodybuilding thing but with fairly miserable results.
    I'm also looking into a 1st cycle, but with the limited knowledge I've scraped together so far, your first cycle seems a bit limited.
    This might sound a bit rough around the edges, but I'm still refining my cycle details before anything happens...
    Not sure on dosages so far but am considering Deca /Test/small period on winny (as painful as I've heard it might be / and clomid to finish)
    I read somewhere that 'nandrolone ' is great to stack with test... dunno, more research needed. 8 week cycle minimum.
    I guess 1 thing that keeps delaying the 1st cycle is the lack of feedback I'm getting. I'm not so keen to dive into it without heaps of good info!
    One good point made was... do you keep the gains on AS? I saw some off-season shots of some big name bodybuilders looking anything but big. Do AS gains eventually fade away to nothing regardless of what you do? (open question to anyone reading here )

    anyway... good luck with your cycle. Maybe you'll post some pix (before after) when you finish?

  9. #9
    Kurt is offline New Member
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    Howzit down under?
    Are you a follower of rugby league or rugby union?
    Getting back to the questions on hand.
    I actually discussed the matter of stacking with my local source who has been using since he was 19yo[now 31]
    And his reply was that once you know for sure what actually works for you,go ahead and stack,but until than rather try and determine what is best for you.
    Everyone reacts differently and just because it worked wonders for one person does not mean you will get the same result.
    Also if there are side effects how do you know which AS are causing them if you are stacking.
    Spoken to a few long term weightrainers and Bodybuilders who agree that the general consensus is that you will possibly not get the same results just using DECA D,but at the end of the day after training for so long natural and with a fair amount of muscle maturity on my side with virgin receptors the results of a DECA D only first cycle should be impressive enough if I run it through 8-10 weeks.
    And to finish of with Clomid.
    Only UNCLEAR point is exactly which ANTI E to take if PROG GYNO appears.
    Seems it is so rare that no one can provide pin point advice on the one to take.
    As for gains fading away?
    I think as long as you maintain your training levels,diet and off course conclude the cycle correctly most gains will remain[trhe type of AS also determines this]
    DECA D seems to have a good reputation for this.
    What I have noticed is that many[generalisation]users of AS seem to actually train much lighter than I though they could[considering their size] and that the seem to use the fact that they are on AS as an easy way out,almost as a crutch.
    Instead of using AS as a way to keep improving on a foundation first built by hard work in and out of the gym.

  10. #10
    iron4life79's Avatar
    iron4life79 is offline Retired Moderator
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    ok,
    lets take the anti-e question 1st:
    if it were me, i'd go the bromo or cabergoline route. as of now these 2 seem to be the most effective. i could give you some advice on dosages, but i think its best if you research this end of it for yourself. some can get away with 1/2 tab twice a day(bromo). while others need slightly more. progesterone/prolactin gyno symptoms are quite rare, but if you stay in this game long enough, you'll learn to have stuff on hand to combat any sides that should arise.

    stacking:
    your source seems like a very conservative guy(or girl), and obviously wants to look out for your welfare. that being said, this dose of deca will do next to nothing for you. look at it this way: you only get one shot at a 1st cycle......receptors are clean and virgin. make this one count bro.
    you dont necessarily need higher doses, but you need, at the very least, a decent stack, and deca alone aint it. test of any kind is the golden rule for a decent stack. its the bottom line main ingredient for all cycles, imho.
    ok, ive rambled enough..........good luck and have a great cycle.

    peace I4L

  11. #11
    Kurt is offline New Member
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    Thanks again for the advise.

    My source[guy] only has the following TEST available.
    Test Propionate ,Sustenon250.
    Also has Spectriel,Pimobolan Depot,Anabol,Anabolin,Winstrol .
    I think you understand my motivation for going with the first cycle and with this in mind what would you stack the Deca with,from what my source has available?
    The most effective stack[not necc. for the biggest gains,as I am prepared to put the effort in at the gym]with the least amount side effects and the less amount of other meds to contra any possibible side effects.
    Please bear in mind that I have already had one dose of DECA 200MG[last Monday]
    Consequently I need to decide the route to go fairly quickly.

    Should I decide to stick to the DECA D only route[against it seems most peoples advise]what kind of results could I expect?
    I know this is a difficult one but a 'GUIDELINE' would be appreaciated.
    To run the course 8 weeks.
    I am in this for the long haul as is evident by the years I have already trained.
    So I do not mind taking it slowly or making gains step by step instead of in leaps in bounds.
    As long as GAINS ARE MADE!
    And it just seems that I know need some chemical assistance to get the ball rolling again.
    It seems to be an uphill roll after 40?

    I have a post on the GENERAL FORUM,would it be possible to get some advise on this one as well.
    Appreciate all your help.

  12. #12
    shlape's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Kurt
    Howzit down under?
    Are you a follower of rugby league or rugby union?
    I live in a sleepy old town... so nothing much goes on here
    As for rugby... dont understand either codes enough to be into either... but women's rugby can be entertaining - especially with the more meaty (solid) women

    You mentioned winny (Winstrol ) in your last post. I've had it suggested that I might wanna include a bit of this at the tail end of a cycle, but be warned... I've heard the injectable is better than the oral but is a pain in the ass... literally (depending if thats where you inject).

    Sorry I can't help you much there, at the moment Ive only got small bits of info. The research goes on..........

  13. #13
    arthurb999's Avatar
    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    Well I'll spell it out for you bro:

    400 mg deca a week for 10 weeks
    500 mg sus a week for 10 weeks
    50 mg winnie everyday for weeks 8-13
    0.25 mg arimidex everyday weeks 1-13
    Comid starts week 14.
    * split the injectibles into 2 shots a week containing 200mg deca and 250mg sus.

    Eat 3500+ cals & 300+ grams of protien a day, train as hard and as heavy as you ever have, ditch the cardio, drink 1.5-2 gallons of water a day, and get a minimum of 8 hours of sleep a night.

    Follow the above recipe and you will be very very pleased with the results.

  14. #14
    Kurt is offline New Member
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    bump

  15. #15
    shlape's Avatar
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    Originally posted by arthurb999
    Well I'll spell it out for you bro:

    400 mg deca a week for 10 weeks
    500 mg sus a week for 10 weeks
    50 mg winnie everyday for weeks 8-13
    0.25 mg arimidex everyday weeks 1-13
    Comid starts week 14.
    * split the injectibles into 2 shots a week containing 200mg deca and 250mg sus.

    Eat 3500+ cals & 300+ grams of protien a day, train as hard and as heavy as you ever have, ditch the cardio, drink 1.5-2 gallons of water a day, and get a minimum of 8 hours of sleep a night.

    Follow the above recipe and you will be very very pleased with the results.
    How about swapping the sus for test... maybe at a lower dose?

    ...and winny every day? hope you dont mean the injectable type
    ouch
    Appologies for the weird questions, but from what I read, it could be a painful cycle. Some people posted their experiences saying that they were unable to walk!

    Fairly lengthy cycle too. how often would you say to go for a blood test to make sure alls well? Its probably getting the blood test that would make me feel uneasy (dont wanna here the doc give lectures about the evils of roids )

    how long with clomid?

  16. #16
    arthurb999's Avatar
    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    You can drink winnie... or shoot it eod. Get the tabs and some liver protectants.

    Clomid - 100mg a day for 10 days, 50 mg a day for another 10 days.

    The deca will minimize the pain from the sus... that's why you mix the two in one shot. You could switch to regular test but I made a cycle using what he had available.

    Not sure about the blood tests...

  17. #17
    shlape's Avatar
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    Originally posted by arthurb999
    You can drink winnie... or shoot it eod. Get the tabs and some liver protectants.

    Clomid - 100mg a day for 10 days, 50 mg a day for another 10 days.

    The deca will minimize the pain from the sus... that's why you mix the two in one shot. You could switch to regular test but I made a cycle using what he had available.

    Not sure about the blood tests...

    Thanx for the info!
    Supplier tells me he can get almost anything, so I guess I run this by him... and get some prices



    All the best with your training... & Kurt as well (maybe some progress pix later on??).


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