Thread: saw palmetto..........
01-11-2004, 11:46 AM #1
i need some guidance and opinions in regard to how effective this herb is on the prostate.
with my current cycle, i believe i'm getting some slight swelling, and wondered if this was an effective deterrent. i'd also like input on dosages on an ed basis.
all thoughts are appreciated...........
01-11-2004, 11:54 AM #2
Hey bro, I know it's been proven to be effective but that's all I can offer. I can't even recall now if it's site-specific or just lowers DHT generally.
I just started on prop (my second cycle) and I'm taking a few of the GNC caps ed, so I've got the same Q as to dosages.
If I find anything I'll post it here.
01-11-2004, 12:06 PM #3
All I've got in my files is from an article in the NYT a few months ago.
Some tidbits: "been used in Europe to relieve the symptoms of enlarged prostates for decades. Doctors there routinely prescribe it."
"No one knows for sure how saw palmetto works, if it does." ( I could swear I've read it's been proven effective!)
In the US "...the lack of standardization in manufacturing and labeling of supplements [is] a problem for consumers."
The NIH uses a product by an Italian company called Indena, because it's among the purest available. (There's an independent health food store near me that sells it -the company lists retailers online.)
01-11-2004, 12:12 PM #4
thanks bro...........as usual youve helped a great deal. i'm researching it too, so maybe we can compare some notes here in few days.
01-11-2004, 12:39 PM #5
No problem bro! Glad to be able to help out.
You probably already know that zinc, selenium (in very small amounts) and lycopene (most anything involving cooked tomaotoes has it -http://www.lycopene.org) are all good for prostate health though don't deal with enlargement directly, at least as far as they know now. I'm guzzlin' V8!
01-13-2004, 01:57 PM #6
i decided to go ahead and give this a try.......i bought the 450mg caps, and i'm running 1800mg ed. 900mg in the am, and 900mg in the pm.
think this is overkill, or still too low?
01-13-2004, 09:36 PM #7
Personally, I have no idea but I've never heard of any talk of toxicity so I can't imagine it would be a problem. I've been taking 4-6 160mgs/day.
For what it's worth I found an online supplier, http://www.carotec.com/price.html that sells the Indena product I mentioned before, which has the brand name Sabalselect.
01-14-2004, 04:23 PM #8
is this a reliable supplier? ive never heard of them, but that dosent mean anything. maybe what i'm using has less active ingredient? its made by REXALL/SUNDOWN.
01-14-2004, 06:57 PM #9
Well, like it said in the NYT article "...the lack of standardization in manufacturing and labeling of supplements [is] a problem for consumers."
What that means is the dose strength is entirely up to the manufacturer since there's no requirement of standardization. I'm not even sure if they're arrived at just what the effective chemicals in saw palmetto are.
I'd say just take a bunch!
I have no idea about that supplier -they're the only online site I could find that carried Sabalselect, which the NIH recognizes as effective enough to use for testing. I'm sure there are others that must be good. I started out with GNC myself and just got some Nature-Made but I plan to order from that site eventually if I can't find Sabalselect locally.
01-14-2004, 07:11 PM #10
Have you thought about taking finasteride for your prostate IFL?
01-15-2004, 01:08 PM #11Originally Posted by 956Vette
i have. i think i'm going to go to the urologist, and i'm sure he'll have me do the ole bend over thing.........just to make sure nothings up.
i will continue with the saw until then, but if he sees anything amiss, maybe he'll hook me up.
really, the only reason for my concern is that ive never had this sort of problem before, so i'm going to err on the side of caution.
01-23-2004, 07:15 AM #12New Member
Originally Posted by iron4life79
- Join Date
- Jan 2004
01-23-2004, 02:27 PM #13Originally Posted by jjc1431
Also test doesn't "have" dhb, it produces DHT as a bi-product, which is dihydrotestosterone. DHT is generally considered a culprit in prostate enlargement, if I understand correctly, and SP is supposed to either lower it or prevent its attachment to receptors on the prostate. I'm not sure it's been established yet which one it is. SP is commonly prescribed in Europe for prostate enlargement, as stated above.
I've often heard DHT decribed as the "bad" testosterone for this reason. But I've never heard of SP lowering testosterone itself.
Please post references if you have any!
01-23-2004, 03:21 PM #14Originally Posted by johnsomebody
thanks bro, you beat me to it. ive seen numerous posts debating whether saw will affect your cycle...........the majority of the conclusions(most backed up by personal experience) are that it dosent negatively affect your cycle at all.
that being said, i'd love to see some hard data that confirms this either way....
01-23-2004, 07:14 PM #15
Here's the best webpage I've found about the subject so far...
"Another study in BPH patients receiving 160 mg of a saw palmetto extract twice a day for 30 days reported no change in plasma concentrations of testosterone , follicle-stimulating hormone, or luteinizing hormone 29. The authors concluded that saw palmetto does not act via systemic changes of hormone levels."
01-23-2004, 07:45 PM #16
I work with a guy who uses it because he has a prostate problem. His doctor told him to use it to reduce the possiblity of enlargement.
01-25-2004, 01:57 PM #17
I4L, here is another view from a controversial BB'er. Seems to be a lack of in depth, hard data on this subject. FWIW
This substance may be one of the most highly supplemented herbs, and with good reason
-- it does what it's supposed to do in that it reduces the symptoms of benign prostate
hypertrophy. Saw Palmetto works and I've used it and recommended it. The way in
which it works, however, may be deleterious to those who need it the most. Confused?
Stick with me a moment.
Saw Palmetto works by blocking the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which is what allows for
the production of DHT (Dyhydrotestosterone). That's good, right? We've been hearing for
years how DHT is the bad testosterone and the culprit for everything from prostate
enlargement to baldness. Well, not only may that not be the case, but it looks like
everyone has been barking up the wrong tree. It's true, that reducing DHT will also
reduce inflammation of the prostate, not caused by an infection (prostatitis). But in doing
so there are far worse repercussions. DHT is more anabolic in nature than once believed,
but maybe more importantly is the fact that DHT is essential to achieving an erection!
The majority of consumers of Saw Palmetto have been older men -- those who are most
prone to prostate problems. But it's that very demographic who need what Saw Palmetto
takes away -- DHT - since erectile dysfunction is more prevalent among older men. So in
other words, using Saw Palmetto to cure prostate enlargement is like using decapitation
to cure a headache. It helps one problem but causes a bigger one.
There's something that has never been answered to my satisfaction: If testosterone and
DHT are the cause of all that's bad about being male, i.e., hair loss and prostate
enlargement, it would then be the bane of young men, since that's when levels are at their
highest. So why do older men with lowered testosterone and DHT develop baldness and
prostate hypertrophy? I've discussed this with several authorities in the field and the
usually reply is; "Good question."
I don't claim to have all the answers, but it shows that there's alot about this subject even
the medical world doesn't yet understand. In the meantime, I'd recommend staying away
from Saw Palmetto unless you experience acute symptoms of prostatitis or BPH. (Pain,
swolleness, scant and burning urination) It should not be taken on a regular basis.
01-25-2004, 02:28 PM #18
definitely food for thought........
that being said, ive been on it for a little over 2 weeks now, and it definitely seems to be helping. i'm not having any erectile trouble, but that could be because i'm on 1000mg of test.......hehe.
i think i'll stay on until the cycle ends, and through my pct, and then possibly come off. if symptoms return, a visit to the doc will be in order.
nice post bro........any chance you know who wrote it?
01-25-2004, 04:03 PM #19
I think the jury is still out on how SP acts. The thread I posted above states...
A 7-day study in which testosterone -stimulated, castrated rats were given an n-hexane extract of Serenoa repens [i.e.Saw Palmetto] at doses of 180 or 1800 mg per day found no 5a-reductase inhibition nor decrease in serum DHT 25. A similar 7-day study in healthy male volunteers given 160 mg twice daily found similar results 26
This contradicted an earlier study that may have used too high a dose and was restricted to rats.
01-26-2004, 05:17 AM #20
I4L, the author of that statement is Nelsen Montana. His views tend to go against the grain so to speak. But, I have found much of what he preaches to be of value. He has done a fairly adequate job of sorting thru the BS with AAS and bodybuilding. I have been training with and without AAS for a long time and his theories, especially on short cycles, have worked for me.
01-26-2004, 07:24 AM #21
ive read some of his stuff bro, but i missed that one.......obviously.
youre right, he is controversial, but some of his stuff does seem to make sense. and for what its worth, i'm all for anyone who can cut through the crap and give definitive answers, and observations.
this is all i can say bro......this stuff seems to be working. i'm not going to come off of it if its effective. i am going to go see the doc though just to be safe, and i'll mention this to him when i see him. while his opinion is just one of many, at least its one more......you know?
i want to thank you for the stuff you both posted. it helped me a great deal, and while conflicting, it really makes you think. of course, i'll always take more if anyone can find it......
01-26-2004, 11:46 AM #22
Hey, I'm glad to help out.
The bad thing about SP is that since no company has a patent on it, no one's had any incentive to spend the money to determine if it really works and how it works.
Fortunately the NIH is finally trying to resolve the issue now. Meantime all we can do is look at the research, see how it works on us, and make our own conclusions -which is what we seem to have to do with most AS stuff anyway!
01-26-2004, 01:14 PM #23Originally Posted by johnsomebody
you hit the nail on the head there bro..........and like i stated above, it seems to be working. as each day passes, i feel a little better.
i would like to try that brand you mentioned above though. where can i get that stuff again? you probably posted it, but i missed it.
01-26-2004, 01:25 PM #24
01-26-2004, 01:37 PM #25
the stuff i'm using now says 4 weeks right on the bottle. maybe since i'm on cycle i'm more receptive to it?
all i know is, i feel a lot better than i did 2+ weeks ago..........
thanks for the hookup again bro.........
01-27-2004, 09:54 PM #26
Hey bro, here's some good info from Ichabod, who I believe may be the most knowledgeble bro at AR when it comes to stuff like this...
"For the saw palmetto, from the sources I have, the reported doses are 160mg twice daily, but standardized to contain at least 80-90% fatty acids and sterols per dose. so depending on the brand you are using, this could differ. Just be sure you are getting the required FAs and sterol dose (80-90%). the mg really means nothing as it can vary greatly in the actual active constituent (fatty acids and sterols). As far as I know, taking too much has not been a problem.
We know the excess formation of DHT is believed to stimulate enlargement in the prostate. Estrogen actually inhibits the elimination of DHT. So more estrogen could mean more DHT. (Do you think that by not reducing estrogen levels to an extent that we could notice a change in libido?) But not everyone is prone to this and it varies individually. but saw palmetto effects DHT by 1) it may inhibit production, 2) inhibit receptor binding, and 3) accelerate metabolism of DHT. SP is also reported to have some antiestrogenic effects which mediate some of the improvement in symptoms, because E seems to inhibit DHT elimination.
We are now thinking that test is not the only culprit to blame in prostate disorders. SP decreases prostate size, but does not alter PSA levels. (this was taken from lexi-comp drugs, which is my all time favorite drug reference). So I don't necessarily think you need to take more than the recommended amount, but I don't think it could hurt unless you are experiencing sides: (and it may be hard to distinguish some of these from AAS sides) GI distress such as diarrhea, vomiting, nausea and constipation. also common is headache, mild sexual dysfunction (because we do need DHT and some estrogen to function normally). So you may want to cut back if you are noticing any of these effects (libido?).
I don't know if taking too much SP could cause you to have a decrease in libido because since it essentially decreases DHT, this could theoretically be a factor. We do need DHT to maintain a functional libido. But I do think it is a great drug to take while on cycle or not, just for prophylactic effects."
01-28-2004, 05:31 PM #27
next time you speak to ichabod, tell him i said thank you..........that was a great read.
01-29-2004, 09:51 PM #28
Will do. That dude is the walking talking Big Blue of AS related info and a great guy besides.
01-30-2004, 12:06 AM #29
Thanks guys. I am just a humble, modest bro willing to help whenever I can. I by no means know everything, but I still love to share what I do know and come across. I will do some lit searches and see what I can come up with, but be patient cuz this usually takes time. Good luck I4L, and well, you know how I feel about you JS
01-30-2004, 12:39 AM #30
ichabod has deserved veteran status for a looooonng time
Always enjoy reading your posts bro. Gotta admit, when i first started posting, i ran a search of your posts, and learned a LOT! for giving so much knowledge back to the community.
01-30-2004, 01:18 PM #31Originally Posted by 956Vette
i'll just have to see what we can do about that.......... i'll run it by a few fellow mods, and see what happens.
01-30-2004, 10:21 PM #32Originally Posted by iron4life79
He's not a PharmaD major for nothing.
02-01-2004, 11:46 AM #33
i head to the urologist tomorrow.........just to be on the safe side. i will mention the s.p. and see what he says.
thanks again guys, for everything.
02-02-2004, 08:48 AM #34
Wow! Thanks guys (especially you JS)! Let us know how things go at the U, I4L!
02-02-2004, 10:33 AM #35Member
Originally Posted by 956Vette
- Join Date
- May 2003
- Rancho Cucomonga
i 100% agree and i also think IC is one of the smartest bros on the board!
02-02-2004, 05:10 PM #36
i went to the uro doctor, and all is fine. he said there is no swelling or any abnormality that he can tell. he also did a urine check, and everything was fine there as well.
i told him about the s.p. and he said it was one of the best things i could have done for my urinary health. he actually starts patients with minor prostate problems on it before he goes to the heavy hitters, such as proscar. he also said it was his opinion that older fellas(like myself) seem to get more from s.p than younger patients.
this is just common sense though i guess..........
02-02-2004, 06:05 PM #37
Good news I4L
and that was interesting to hear about your docs view on sp
03-07-2004, 09:26 PM #38
Hey I4L, how is that SP working for you -still okay?
I'm on week 9 of my Prop/Var cycle and I'm disappointed at my lack of gains (up 12lbs.) even though I upped the Prop to 100ed week 5. I'm beginning to wonder if the SP isn't interfering with gains after all.
Now that I look at the studies more closely I see that while SP didn't interfere with test levels, there is more than one study showing it interferes with test binding at the androgen receptor, which is exactly what jjc1431 was saying above (and I so ruthlessly questioned!)
The lef.org link I posted above just mirrors a link by USPC...
It mentions a couple of past studies showing SP not only inhibits binding of DHT at androgen receptors but of testosterone as well...
"Experiments using human tissue samples (i.e., abdominal wall skin, myometrium, prepuce, and vaginal skin) found that n-hexane extract of Serenoa repens inhibited dihydrotestosterone and testosterone binding by approximately 40% 30. The authors of an experiment to study the effects of a liposterolic extract of saw palmetto (LESP) on two prostatic cancer cell lines differing in androgen responsiveness also concluded that their findings supported anti-androgenic activity of the extract. Variable concentrations (£ 10 mg/mL to ³ 25 mg/mL) of an n-hexanepreparation antagonized androgen-stimulated cell growth in a concentration-dependent manner.... "
I'm gonna lay off the stuff and see if I notice a diff, though I've only got a couple weeks left. Now I'm wondering if it wasn't a mistake to use it when I didn't really need it, I'm just using it as a preventive.
03-07-2004, 11:06 PM #39Swellin Guest
Guys, I hate that I stumbled onto this thread so late...I sure could have used the info a couple of months ago.
However, this has been an excellent thread about SP! Lots of knowledgeable bros putting up good info!
Move this to the Ed threads.
Oh yeah, JS told me to take a look at some of IC's posts...about 6 months ago. I did...and they have been a huge help. Whether or not he has the Vet title...his posts command respect. Those of us who have read many of them already view him as a Vet.
Again...excellent thread guys!
03-08-2004, 09:53 AM #40
Okay AR Mods, there's another vote for making Ichabodcrane a Vet! You guys paying attention?
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