Next cycle,, NO FRIGGEN CLOMID!!

**FREAKZILLLA** · 06-20-2004, 11:23 PM

Ok, straight to the point here,, ive taken oral dbols, anadrol , winny, deca , eq, and 4 different kinds of test all with no side effects! Of couse i had my novla that i took, and pct with clomid and once hcg . The clomid made my shoulders, chest, and back look like a pizza store, i had no sex drive, and i was so irratible that i didnt even wanna go to the gym!! This was all from clomid!!
So i say to you, since my testes remained normal, even at 750mg of sust a week, this time im using novla, clen , trib, and dhea as pct. I cant remember being in any worse of a mood on friggen clomid!!
I guess u can say i react well to a.s. and not ancillaries!!
With what i have planned for my next cycles pct do u guys think i'll be fine giving the facts above? (cycle is deca at 600mg/test-e at 1g a week).

**TheMudMan** · 06-21-2004, 07:43 AM

No matter if you experiance atrophy or not you will be shut down....... Tribulus I know does help raise LH levels but I don't know if it's enough to help recover HPTA. Nolva alone can be used for PCT but it could take months to recover.

Also, you're blamming clomid for these bad sides don't you think maybe it could be because your hormones are so low durring PCT that you are seeing these sides.

**FREAKZILLLA** · 06-21-2004, 08:33 AM

well the best way to describe it is going to puberty again! Im no doctor so i dont know how harsh my HPTA system has shut down. I do know that at 600mg of deca and a gram of test will do the trick. I just dont wanna take clomid ever again cause its the only thing i get sides from!! Sh*t, i dont even get acne from a gram of test or deca di*k !! Funny how our bodies react differently to a.s.
The whole question is that do u bros think that given the info above, do u think novla, trib, and dhea in high doses is good enough for PCT ?

**TheMudMan** · 06-21-2004, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by FREAKZILLLA

well the best way to describe it is going to puberty again! Im no doctor so i dont know how harsh my HPTA system has shut down. I do know that at 600mg of deca and a gram of test will do the trick. I just dont wanna take clomid ever again cause its the only thing i get sides from!! Sh*t, i dont even get acne from a gram of test or deca di*k !! Funny how our bodies react differently to a.s.
The whole question is that do u bros think that given the info above, do u think novla, trib, and dhea in high doses is good enough for PCT ?

Like I said........ Nolva could take months to recover HPTA..... Trib does raise LH as well but I don't feel enough to reover HPTA quicly either. I don't know if DHEA will help either. So with at least the Nolva and trib you will eventually recover but it may be a long recovery.

**FREAKZILLLA** · 06-21-2004, 08:59 AM

mudman, do u think it wont be a long rewcovey since i dont experience testy shrinkage or sides while on my cycle?? (my sex drive stays the same as well as performance this way)!

**TheMudMan** · 06-21-2004, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by FREAKZILLLA

mudman, do u think it wont be a long rewcovey since i dont experience testy shrinkage or sides while on my cycle?? (my sex drive stays the same as well as performance this way)!

Guys that see a great deal of atrophy will have harder recovery than those that don't most of the time. So you may recover in less time but it will be longer than when using clomid.

**FREAKZILLLA** · 06-21-2004, 09:09 AM

well i can deal with a long recovery versus the sidesa of clomid. I have scars from the last time i used clomid from the acne and am mentally scarred cause i had a girl at the time and didnt wanna have sex with her so she thought something was wrong with her and i kept teling her that its the clomid.

**Dally** · 06-21-2004, 09:55 AM

dude thats crazy... I mean I have sides like crazy of test prop.. thats all I have done, when I trashed the cycle and pct'd with clomid .. I didnt get one side at all from it and it totally healed up me nuts.

like you said .. odd how we are all different with as
I just wish I was more like you dude. eheheh

later man.

**LuvMuhRoids** · 06-21-2004, 01:42 PM

If you read this article below, it is a study on the effects of nolva and clomid and the selectivness to certain actions. In this study it shows that nolva has little effect on stimulating LH levels rather it acts as the primary antiestrogen as opposed to clomids selectiveness. Nolvadex is not enough to restore your HPTA. Nolvadex is the primary antiestrogen in its effect to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors unlike clomid. Clomid unlike tamox exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

Tamox vs Clomid

Am J Physiol 1983 Feb;240(2):E125-30

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

**Dally** · 06-21-2004, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by LuvMyRoids

If you read this article below, it is a study on the effects of nolva and clomid and the selectivness to certain actions. In this study it shows that nolva has little effect on stimulating LH levels rather it acts as the primary antiestrogen as opposed to clomids selectiveness. Nolvadex is not enough to restore your HPTA. Nolvadex is the primary antiestrogen in its effect to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors unlike clomid. Clomid unlike tamox exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

Tamox vs Clomid

Am J Physiol 1983 Feb;240(2):E125-30

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

GOOD POST

WICKED AVATAR!

**einstein1905** · 06-21-2004, 02:52 PM

Also, you're blaming clomid for your sides....it's pct that causes sides. The drop and then rise of various hormone levels....this is what causes sides. Clomid doesn't directly "cause" any of the things you described. Clomid's ability to raise LH and thus test are what cause your sides. The fact that you may not see the same sides with nolva alone is because recovery is so much more drawn out....not as acute (i.e. not as efficient), and therefore harder to keep your gains.

**dirtdawg** · 06-21-2004, 03:22 PM

clomid sucks i know i am on a month long depression as well, sex drive is still there, but just suck it up and deal with it, you want to recover as fast as possible, and 3-4 weeks goes by pretty fast, even though i have similar thoughts, even thought about suicide a little, but it will all end soon, i hope, i get a little freaked out at night, and my own thoughts just makes evrything worse, a lot of bros go through this crap and it sucks, but being on AR helps alot

**sigrabbit** · 06-21-2004, 03:28 PM

I concur with Einstein. The side you are experiencing are from fluctuating hormone levels, ie you have a ton less test in you than while "on".

**FREAKZILLLA** · 06-21-2004, 03:37 PM

well in not doing clomid ever again! So if u would please conr up with a PCT that doesnt enclude clomid or HCG !!

**LuvMuhRoids** · 06-21-2004, 06:49 PM

There really is no proper PCT with out clomid. I know there is some mis-information going around the net that nolva is only needed but this is not true. I understand your concern against clomid because it does cause acne as a side effect but you can combat that as well with high dosages of B5. There are pleny of threads on this subject. Start out with about 10grams of B5 or a maintenace dosage of about 2-4 grams through out clomid therapy and see how this works for you.

If you choose to go with out clomid during your post cycle therapy then it is only your body taking its time to recover which takes a bit longer and is harsher on the system. You will experience a crash and a severe flush of estrogen which in turn will cause you more side effects than clomid will. If you choose a non clomid therapy treatment then i would suggest nolvadex at 60-80mg ED along side with an AI like armidex or l-dex.

That would be my best opinion with out clomid. Also try a certain amount of Tribulus to help stimulate your LH levels. I have used tribulus during my cycles and it seems to work for me. You will have to look up a thread or two on dosages. During my cycle I ran 2grams a day. For PCT maybe higher. I will leave that advice up to someone else that knows more about trib than I do.

Originally Posted by FREAKZILLLA

well in not doing clomid ever again! So if u would please conr up with a PCT that doesnt enclude clomid or HCG!!

**FREAKZILLLA** · 06-21-2004, 06:55 PM

thats what i said earlier bro

**einstein1905** · 06-21-2004, 08:57 PM

Yes, just to reiterate, the side effects of clomid are not due to clomid but are due to rapid re-establishment of HPTA (via boosts in LH---->test), coming just after dropping down from supraphysiological levels of androgens. The mere fact that you won't see such dramatic sides with lesser pcts is directly attributed to the fact that they are taking much longer to re-establish HPTA function. It's a trade off, but the longer you take to re-establish HPTA, the more time you're in a subphysiological androgen state and are much more prone to dropping hard-earned LBM.

**Stackertoo** · 08-19-2004, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by FREAKZILLLA

Ok, straight to the point here,, ive taken oral dbols, anadrol , winny, deca , eq, and 4 different kinds of test all with no side effects! Of couse i had my novla that i took, and pct with clomid and once hcg . The clomid made my shoulders, chest, and back look like a pizza store, i had no sex drive, and i was so irratible that i didnt even wanna go to the gym!! This was all from clomid!!
So i say to you, since my testes remained normal, even at 750mg of sust a week, this time im using novla, clen , trib, and dhea as pct. I cant remember being in any worse of a mood on friggen clomid!!
I guess u can say i react well to a.s. and not ancillaries!!
With what i have planned for my next cycles pct do u guys think i'll be fine giving the facts above? (cycle is deca at 600mg/test-e at 1g a week).

I know what you're going through. I got acne on my back worse than I ever have before, on or off cycle.
Head to your local feed store/mill. Ask for antibiotics. The one you want is Tetracycline HCL. In a few days, your back and shoulders will show definite improvement (or at least mine did). Or you could ask your doc for it, too.
When I did cycles back in the day-not gonna date myself here-I never used Clomid and only would get a few zits occasionally (during the cycle).
The first time I did Clomid, I became a freaking pizza.
Hope this is of some help...

**dumblucky** · 08-20-2004, 06:43 PM

I get severe headaches from clomid .. Imean totally unberable .. So I am looking for a pct that doesnt involve clomid my self
I got this pct from a respectable bro on htis board

standard pct 14 days nolva at 40mgs and 14 days at 20mgs,

**Latimus** · 08-22-2004, 12:23 PM

i know a few people who only use nolv and trib..and they keep all their gains...its when you dont use any anti-es that you lose it all....goodluck bro

i also say clomid is the best choice....but here is something to help you sleep..lol

http://www.anabolicuniverse.com/foru...php/t-110.html

**clockworks** · 08-25-2004, 02:07 PM

when you guys say you broke out or became a pizza or whatever during PCT, can you be more specific? was the acne surface acne or deep, under-the-skin cystic acne?

i got horrific acne post cycle when i started clomid. it was deep cystic acne that left deep, dark purple scars. i want to know if you guys got the same kind of acne or if it was just the surface kind that doesn't leave scars.

i wanna cycle again, but the deep purple scars are a constant reminder that i shouldn't until i know without a doubt how to avoid the acne.

**FREAKZILLLA** · 08-25-2004, 02:22 PM

Well this was months ago and its still gettin hits. It was just a test only cycle that i came off of but it was a nice gram a week and i came off just fine without the clomid and didnt get the acne (deep or surfaced), or the mood swings. I had no t.a. so that wasnt an issue and as far as gains keeping, i only dropped the 5-10 pounds of water retention. I dont recomend it to everyone cause we all react different genetically but it worked good for me.

**clockworks** · 08-26-2004, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by FREAKZILLLA

Well this was months ago and its still gettin hits. It was just a test only cycle that i came off of but it was a nice gram a week and i came off just fine without the clomid and didnt get the acne (deep or surfaced), or the mood swings. I had no t.a. so that wasnt an issue and as far as gains keeping, i only dropped the 5-10 pounds of water retention. I dont recomend it to everyone cause we all react different genetically but it worked good for me.

so when you did your cycle with clomid (a few cycles back) and got the bad acne, was it the deep kind that cause scarring?

you recently cycled on a gram of test with no clomid for PCT and you did fine? no acne, natty test came back, etc etc?

can you really pinpoint the clomid though? the cycle where you got acne and the recent cycle differ besides the inclusion of clomid, no? i.e. the cycle where you got acne included much more than just test and clomid, right?

thanks for the info.

**Sta11ion** · 08-26-2004, 10:59 AM

Clomid I dont believe it works for everyone, for myself my sex drive stays consistent threw out the cycle. Its more aggresive the first few weeks, but it does taper down to normal. Also it stays normal while I am off. As for clomid, I get so depressed. Its the worst feeling ever. I almost feel like I want to kill myself. It also stays consistent while I am using it. As for the sex drive while on clomid it goes out the door. I am not interested at all. For my next cycle I want to see how I get with out it and what I lose. Nolvadex never gave me a hard time also with clen , I will see how I get.