Clomid, Nolvadex And Testosterone Stimulation

[ExtremeMassMonster]

Clomid, Nolvadex And Testosterone Stimulation

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par25.htm

[GQplaya]

interesting

[Stout1]

Nolva and Clomid. Why we need both.

Posted by LMR on IBB


Nolva is the dominating SERM in pct. Both nolva and clomid are SERMS but tissue specific or selective to certain areas. The case of clomid vs nolva is clomid is a weak anti-estrogen blocker as opposed to nolvadex but clomid is needed to stimulate LH levels back to normal thus it's specific use. Nolvadex is selective in this aspect that it's main purpose as studies show is a weak estrogen and binds to receptors during PCT.

Nolvadex is needed for what I call the estrogen back lash one will recieve during the off time right after a cycle. When androgen levels drop estrogen flushs the receptors and nolvadex is needed. To not hinder gains or keep them longer, it is suggestable to restore the balance as quick as possible. Clomid is suggestable for this even though clomid is an anti-estrogen as well this is shown to be not it's selection.

To conclude, both SERMS are neccessary for proper restoration and serve both purposes needed in PCT. One, clomid to restore LH levels back to normal. Two, nolvadex to act as the anti-estrogen and block the flush.

[LuvMuhRoids]

:spudnik4:

Nolva and Clomid. Why we need both.

Posted by LMR on IBB


Nolva is the dominating SERM in pct. Both nolva and clomid are SERMS but tissue specific or selective to certain areas. The case of clomid vs nolva is clomid is a weak anti-estrogen blocker as opposed to nolvadex but clomid is needed to stimulate LH levels back to normal thus it's specific use. Nolvadex is selective in this aspect that it's main purpose as studies show is a weak estrogen and binds to receptors during PCT.

Nolvadex is needed for what I call the estrogen back lash one will recieve during the off time right after a cycle. When androgen levels drop estrogen flushs the receptors and nolvadex is needed. To not hinder gains or keep them longer, it is suggestable to restore the balance as quick as possible. Clomid is suggestable for this even though clomid is an anti-estrogen as well this is shown to be not it's selection.

To conclude, both SERMS are neccessary for proper restoration and serve both purposes needed in PCT. One, clomid to restore LH levels back to normal. Two, nolvadex to act as the anti-estrogen and block the flush.

[Stout1]

:spudnik4:

[ExtremeMassMonster]

By: William Llewellyn. I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use...




By: Par Deus

Editors Note:
I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website -- but only after you have finsished reading big Mf'r and spent all of your money on our products, of course

Introduction

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone -stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell.

And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor.

In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant.

What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response.

The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2).

This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid.

This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well.

Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

References:


Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7
Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

[Stout1]

By: William Llewellyn. I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use...




By: Par Deus

Editors Note:
I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website -- but only after you have finsished reading big Mf'r and spent all of your money on our products, of course

Introduction

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone -stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell.

And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor.

In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant.

What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response.

The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2).

This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid.

This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well.

Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

References:


Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7
Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

From what I gather this is a case for using nolvadex over clomid while you are ON. This is not a study for PCT purposes, from what I can gather at least. The guy that wrote this article, Bill Llewellyn, is also the guy that wrote what I posted. Check this out.

SERM/AI Definition

[lousygenes]

Gentlemen, I am reviving this thread in the hopes that someone will respond to me without me having to start another thread.
I read the original thread on bodybuilding.com (cited above) and chose to use nolva for PCT instead of clomid. (I've noticed that clomid has effected my vision).
My specs: mid-40s, approx sixth cycle, 12 wk cycle, test prop & fina (used in 2-3 previous cycles), have had cycles as long as 25 wks without any recovery problems. Been using roids for about four years. All previous PCT therapies have been exclusively clomid.

It's been a month since the cycle ended and lil willy hasn't been responding normally. He's been asleep for almost a week. I'm used to willy being active daily off cycle; he's a maniac on cycle.
My wife is, in a word, devastated. I am, in a word, devastated.

I will be ordering clomid immediately after posting this. I will also order Tongkat Ali; I've never heard of it before reading the threads in this forum. Is there anything else that is recommended to wake willy?

[LuvMuhRoids]

Read "Pheedno's PCT". In that article you will find the cause of your libido problem and possible a way to subside this. There is a tri method of PCT using clomid/nolva/arimidex .

using an AI along side the two SERMs such as nolva and clomid are found to be more beneficial in studies to faster recovery, test production, and libido problems. Please read the article carefully because it is very informative and is the answer to your question.

Gentlemen, I am reviving this thread in the hopes that someone will respond to me without me having to start another thread.
I read the original thread on bodybuilding.com (cited above) and chose to use nolva for PCT instead of clomid. (I've noticed that clomid has effected my vision).
My specs: mid-40s, approx sixth cycle, 12 wk cycle, test prop & fina (used in 2-3 previous cycles), have had cycles as long as 25 wks without any recovery problems. Been using roids for about four years. All previous PCT therapies have been exclusively clomid.

It's been a month since the cycle ended and lil willy hasn't been responding normally. He's been asleep for almost a week. I'm used to willy being active daily off cycle; he's a maniac on cycle.
My wife is, in a word, devastated. I am, in a word, devastated.

I will be ordering clomid immediately after posting this. I will also order Tongkat Ali; I've never heard of it before reading the threads in this forum. Is there anything else that is recommended to wake willy?

[seanw]

Get some Cialis until it all comes back, you and your wife will be very happy with the results. Read this as well Pheedno's PCT

[lousygenes]

Guys, thanks for the responses; I read Pheedno's thread.
I wanted to get away from using clomid due to the effect that it had on my vision, but I will only use it for PCT in the future.
I used clomid as part of my anti-e on a 25 week cycle along with PCT, and I could tell a definite deterioration in my visual acuity after that cycle. That's why I chose to return to L-dex (instead of exemistane/clomid) on cycle for anti-e and nolva for PCT for this last cycle.
I read that nolva is not as harsh on your vision, and the article cited here gave me the impression that it was as effect for PCT as clomid. I'm living proof that it is not.

I don't visit roid sites often anymore, but when I do, this is the first one that I turn to.
There's always great info here.

[LuvMuhRoids]

youre welcome

Guys, thanks for the responses; I read Pheedno's thread.
I wanted to get away from using clomid due to the effect that it had on my vision, but I will only use it for PCT in the future.
I used clomid as part of my anti-e on a 25 week cycle along with PCT, and I could tell a definite deterioration in my visual acuity after that cycle. That's why I chose to return to L-dex (instead of exemistane/clomid) on cycle for anti-e and nolva for PCT for this last cycle.
I read that nolva is not as harsh on your vision, and the article cited here gave me the impression that it was as effect for PCT as clomid. I'm living proof that it is not.

I don't visit roid sites often anymore, but when I do, this is the first one that I turn to.
There's always great info here.

[slowpain]

well I have something to share about using both clomid and nolva, last cycle I thought I would try just nolvadex and not use any clomid, I took the nolva alone for about 2 weeks and didnt feel like I was realy recovering so I threw in the clomid with it to see if it would make a differance, it did, I began breaking out on my back and felt much stronger in the gym with more endurance, it also increased my sex drive significantly. Except for the moodyness I like to take clomid to get my strength and sex drive back nolva didnt do it for me.

[Whitey]

Guys, thanks for the responses; I read Pheedno's thread.
I wanted to get away from using clomid due to the effect that it had on my vision, but I will only use it for PCT in the future.
I used clomid as part of my anti-e on a 25 week cycle along with PCT, and I could tell a definite deterioration in my visual acuity after that cycle. That's why I chose to return to L-dex (instead of exemistane/clomid) on cycle for anti-e and nolva for PCT for this last cycle.
I read that nolva is not as harsh on your vision, and the article cited here gave me the impression that it was as effect for PCT as clomid. I'm living proof that it is not.

I don't visit roid sites often anymore, but when I do, this is the first one that I turn to.
There's always great info here.

Can't tell for sure, but it sounded like you were using clomid during a cycle, when you had your vision problem. Clomid should never be used on cycle, only post-cycle. Taking a short run (4 wks) of clomid Post cyle should not be too bad on your eyes, and you can reduce your doses as needed.

The information that you read about taking nolva over clomid is outdated and inaccurate. At this point, you should be hitting clomid at 100mg/ED, nolva at 20/mg, and if you really want to you can add tongkat (I think the dose is around 1-2g/ED) and tribulus (4-5g/ED). Cialis will help you in your time of need. AR-R has it. Good luck, bro.

[lousygenes]

Can't tell for sure, but it sounded like you were using clomid during a cycle, when you had your vision problem. Clomid should never be used on cycle, only post-cycle. Taking a short run (4 wks) of clomid Post cyle should not be too bad on your eyes, and you can reduce your doses as needed.

Yes, I did run clomid & exemistane during a cycle instead of l-dex. I read an article touting the virtues of that anti-e method over l-dex. The author didn't mention anything about vision problems with clomid. Live and learn. At least I hope that I can teach others from my misfortune.

As for my progress, it is not stellar. I am slowly gaining my sex drive, but it isn't anywhere close to 'there' yet. Once every 2-3 days sucks when I used to be once to twice a day off cycle.
I'm using 100 mg/day clomid, 20 mg/day nolva, and .25 mg/day l-dex. I am considering upping the clomid; any other suggestions. At this point, I'd rather require glasses than viagra. (I'm getting up there anyway; it's just a matter of time before I need both ).

As an aside, I hope that other BBs can learn from my problem. The effect of this test shutdown has left my body in worse shape than prior to the cycle and I feel lethargic a lot of the time.

[Beefkake31]

They need to update the steroid cycle profiles on the home page for the pct section.

[lousygenes]

A quick progress update - After posting on Feb 28, I increased my clomid dosage to 200 mg/day, once in the morning and once in the evening. My nuts hurt most of the day yesterday and today; that's a good sign, because it's starting to feel like a normal PCT.
I'm not too worried about my vision; I'd rather have crappy vision with stiff wood than great vision and eternal deca dick.

I've thought about the article that I read with alternative anti-e methods, and now feel that anti-e therapies are like roids; some work great on some while not at all/adverse reaction on others, others work great on everyone.

I'm continuing to post in the hope that some of the readers of this board learn from my mistake. When it comes to anti-es, I'll stick with the tried & true trio of l-dex, clomid, and nolva. And use them properly; l-dex on cycle, nolva if you have sore tits, and clomid for PCT.