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Thread: PCT by SWALE

  1. #1
    clhp20's Avatar
    clhp20 is offline Member
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    PCT by SWALE

    Here is an interesting article from Musclechemistry on PCT by SWALE (he is an MD)

    I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM''s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't fool the bodyit is smarter than you are.

    I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don't want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

    Also as recently posted at SBI:


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SWALE
    Following a year of talking to patients and looking at labs, I am now revising the way I want my TRT patients to use HCG. I now recommend 250IU on the day before, and two days before, the test cyp injection. IOW, we're just moving the two HCG shots up a day.

    Without getting into all the pharmacodynamics involved, let's just say I am realizing that HCG is even MORE powerful than previously thought.

  2. #2
    toc67guru is offline Associate Member
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    swale is not only a trt specialist he also advises AAS taking athletes.

    no doubt we will get posts saying this is only for trt patients,i disagree i believe it is intended for AAS users.

  3. #3
    wayneboard1 is offline New Member
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    Great pos tman, very informative esp[ecially since I am trying to nail down my PCT. I lvoe factual info like this. I am gonna give you some rep for that man.

  4. #4
    wayneboard1 is offline New Member
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    I wonder if anyone on here has done it like this and how it worked out. That would be good feedback.

  5. #5
    jamikehat is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayneboard1
    I wonder if anyone on here has done it like this and how it worked out. That would be good feedback.
    Bump

    I would also like to know someone's result using this protocol.

    thx

  6. #6
    anabolicarms's Avatar
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    whats qd?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicarms
    whats qd?
    Douchebag-doctor-lingo. It means once a day.

    Qd = once a day
    Qh = once an hour
    Bid = 2x a day
    Tid = 3x a day
    Qid = 4x a day

    The doctor who wrote this PCT protocol was a moderator on MesRx, and was removed for being mentally instable.

  8. #8
    Jawncy is offline Junior Member
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    Regardless of his PERCEIVED maturity levels (I've read the threads at MesRX. THis man know his stuff and I respect his achievments and his generousity in not WITHHOLDING information in order to "hook" this boards participants into a financial arrangement with him. Swale is the man! CLHP20 is the man! Dr. Crisler is the MAN! Everyone should give him street cred for his generousity. Ignore the bad stuff, compliment the good stuff. Let people have their egos on that other board, why get yoursefl involved in that mess and make comments here that are meant to damage. SWALE is stable and has a right to be significantly offended by ignorant brothers on those other boards. They are ignorant and confrontational. This man has real world knowledge and gives it out for free. FREE! That word is not often used in this society any more where everyone is out to get what they selfhishly can. Being a servant to others needs to come back in style from time to time. Please, let's not comment on this to other members of this board, if you have factual, definitive, scientific or experiential knowledge that negates what this man is saying, please comment but if you have nothing nice to say, then don't say it. Information we all want, slander and nasty commentary everyone can do without. PLEASE. please ...... p l e a s e? . . .

  9. #9
    androsX is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by clhp20 View Post
    Here is an interesting article from Musclechemistry on PCT by SWALE (he is an MD)

    I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM''s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't fool the bodyit is smarter than you are.

    I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don't want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

    Also as recently posted at SBI:


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SWALE
    Following a year of talking to patients and looking at labs, I am now revising the way I want my TRT patients to use HCG. I now recommend 250IU on the day before, and two days before, the test cyp injection. IOW, we're just moving the two HCG shots up a day.

    Without getting into all the pharmacodynamics involved, let's just say I am realizing that HCG is even MORE powerful than previously thought.


    If i want to run test for 13 weeks as part of a larger stack. What is the best way to run HCG to get back quickly (i had test atrophy doing 320 IOU 2x week for 16 weeks on my last cycle):

    1 - 13weeks HCG at 250 IU per day
    2 - 13weeks HCG at 250 IU 3 x week
    3 - last 4 weeks of cycle HCG at 250 IU per day
    4 - last 4 weeks of cycle HCG at 250 IU 3 x week
    Last edited by androsX; 11-13-2007 at 10:02 AM.

  10. #10
    Wavelover is offline Junior Member
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    Why don't use HCG for PCT ?

  11. #11
    Big's Avatar
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    Big is offline Retired~ AR-Hall of Famer ~ "Enforcer"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavelover View Post
    Why don't use HCG for PCT ?

  12. #12
    JSola's Avatar
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    jeeze man, just when i thought i had the whole pct thing figured out!

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