Thread: Lost with hcg...
06-20-2005, 10:40 AM #1New Member
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- Jun 2005
Lost with hcg...
I' planning to take following cycle:
tren 228mg/w 1-7
sust 500mg/w 1-4 and 750mg 5-8
winny 150mg/w 1-4 and 200mg 5-8
Clomid I will start at week 11 but with hcg I'm lost. Others say that i should take it 500iu 2x at week and stop before clomid. Others does say i don't need it all. So what is the right way or is there right way at all...?
06-20-2005, 12:00 PM #2Member
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- Jan 2005
06-22-2005, 10:23 PM #3
Im useing hcg for my 12 wk cycle and I like it. Im useing it from about wk 8 and all the way into just before my clomid, nolva, l-dex pct. 500iu 2x wk was suggested to me also so I tried that and nothing really happened so I uped it to 700iu 2x wk and I like the results I m getting
06-23-2005, 08:04 AM #4Member
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- Jan 2005
Im also doing 500ius 2x week and my libido and nuts are working good and i´ve been on my cycle for almost 6months.
06-23-2005, 07:32 PM #5
reason why some may say you dont need it is because that cycle is so short. Its a weird cycle and I dont understand the ramping up part. That's not done anymore. Point to a cycle is to reach a saturation level as quick as you can and hold there as long as you can with out causing spikes in plasma levels.
HCG is recommended for longer cycles 6months to a year. That is when inhibitions of the testes are most common and or permanent.
I dont see HGC worth it in your cycle.
Either way I will post up an article I pulled together for informational purposes. It is a good read.
06-23-2005, 07:33 PM #6
This is an article I resort to often in advicing on HCG usage. I have read many studies on this product and its abilities. I would like to note that HCG is not to be mistaken for a suppliment to clomid or nolavdex for PCT. HCG tricks the testes into reproduction by mimicing LH. It does not restore the HPTA to a proper recovery. This is only accomplished by clomid/nolvadex therapy. HCG can not be used together in conjuction with clomid for one inhibits the other. I have read users administering HCG right after a cycle for a quick restore then start clomid therapy right after. It should only be used to cure symptoms of "testicular atrophy".
Nick and Bigfella - MuscleTalk.co.uk moderators
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid , but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).
Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.
HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.
The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia .
From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:
1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.
Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.
Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.
Summary and Price of Clomid and HCG
Clomid is more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid therapy.
Clomid is available in 50mg tablets most commonly, but also comes in 25mg capsules. 10 x 50mg tablets should be anywhere from £10-20; $10 - $20.00. HCG prices range from £15-£25 per 3 ampoules.
note below first bold sentence where the article discusses amounts administered. I have read many times users administering larger dosages thinking of a quicker or better recovery not considering the side effects this may cause.
HCG is provided as a glycoprotein powder to be diluted with water, and acts in the body like LH, stimulating the testes to produce testosterone even when natural LH is not present or is deficient. It therefore is useful for maintaining testosterone production and/or testicle size during a steroid cycle. Use of this drug in the taper is rather counterproductive, since the resulting increased testosterone production is itself inhibitory to the hypothalamus and pituitary, delaying recovery. Thus, if this drug is used, it is preferably used during the cycle itself. A daily amount of 500 IU is generally sufficient, and in my opinion usage should not exceed 1000 IU per day.
Daily administration is superior to less frequent administration.
Doses over 1000 IU are noted for their tendency to cause or aggravate gynecomastia, and also act to desensitize the testicles to LH.
HCG may be injected intramuscularly, subcutaneously, or in a shallow injection about 1/4" deep with the needle going straight in. A 29 gauge insulin needle is recommended. Injection speed should be slow.
Some HCG products are diluted 5000 or even 10,000 IU per mL, while others are diluted 1000 IU per mL. So far as I know there is no need to make the preparation so dilute. Once mixed, the preparation should be refrigerated and used within a few weeks. The substance is also somewhat temperature sensitive before mixing and should not be exposed to excessive heat.
HCG does not correct the problem of progressively-decreasing ejaculatory volume that is typical during a steroid cycle. So far as I know the only cure is to go off-cycle and use Clomid, but it is possible that HMG, a related drug which works analogously to FSH might be useful during a cycle to treat this problem. HMG supports spermatogenesis and is commonly used in conjunction with HCG to treat male fertility problems. (Consider use of HMG to maintain ejaculatory volume to be a strictly past-the-cutting-edge hypothesis: I have not yet had the opportunity to test the matter.)
The athlete who would otherwise fail a urinary ratio test because of low epitestosterone may find HCG useful in increasing epitestosterone and therefore improving this ratio. A 500 IU dose is sufficient, but on the other hand, HCG itself is also banned by the IOC and is readily detected in urine.
HCG can also useful for returning testosterone to normal levels should levels be low post-cycle, or, with care, to increase levels from normal to high normal. Titration of the dose, by measuring T levels and then adjusting the HCG dose accordingly, is recommended for long term use.
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