Pheedno's PCT

[Diesel]

Great post bro.

It is stick worthy IMO.

D

[Mallet]

Very well documented my friend!...this is a great read before starting a first cycle!

[craneboy]

super post bro, i'll have to read it several times! ALOT of info

[symatech]

Crap bro, I apologize. Got caught up in other things and just plain forgot. I'll make a note and PM you that info


To everyone.....Thank you for the compliments.

lol no problem. I figured you were probably a busy man.

[craneboy]

thanks for the great post.

[monstercojones]

just wanted to give big props to PHEEDNO for a kick ass thread that really gives a plethora of valuable information.

thanks for the informative post Pheed. you're the man, as always.

[juiceinthehood]

thanks for the info

[Blown_SC]

Thanks bro..
Everyone here appreciates the time and effort you put forth...

[dvest8]

Pheedno thnx Bro,just added it to my favorites folder as well as printed it for safe keeping & future refrences.BIGG UPS ON YOUR POST!!!!!!!!!!!

[BASK8KACE]

Excellent post, Pheedno. Thanks for the information.

Bump (for me to find again....eventhough it's already a sticky).

xxample

[hatchblack]

Great post Pheendo.

One question...If I do not have an apparent occular toxicity reaction to clomid, would you recommend running it at say 200 mgs for the first couple of days and then reducing dosing to the 100 mg level for the remainder of the 30 + days. You mentioned that the higher dosages, if well tolerated, got your levels more stabilized more quickly.

[kingofmasters]

Very good post!
I have read a lot of studies on the matter and I have to say you picked out the ones which conclusion should help us most in practice; Great job!

But as to me being a Letro fan instead of Arimidex :
Nolva decreases Letro bloodplasma levels.
So it is a matter of balance between this SERM and that AI.

So what would be a good balance in dose for the two during PCT?

1 mg Letrozole + 20 mg Nolvadex ED?
1 mg Letrozole + 10 mg Nolvadex ED?
2 mg Letrozole + 20 mg Nolvadex ED?

Greets
Kingofmasters

[hatchblack]

Very good post!
I have read a lot of studies on the matter and I have to say you picked out the ones which conclusion should help us most in practice; Great job!

But as to me being a Letro fan instead of Arimidex :
Nolva decreases Letro bloodplasma levels.
So it is a matter of balance between this SERM and that AI.

So what would be a good balance in dose for the two during PCT?

1 mg Letrozole + 20 mg Nolvadex ED?
1 mg Letrozole + 10 mg Nolvadex ED?
2 mg Letrozole + 20 mg Nolvadex ED?

Greets
Kingofmasters

I have the same question as well within in regards to Nolvadex reducing L-Dex and L-Femara decreasing plasma levels so would that warrant an increasing dose of L-Dex or L-Femara....?

[styles-money]

Excellent post. It just convinced me to use both Clomid and Nolva in my PCT.

I want to know what Pheedno's thoughts are on HCG ?

[Caribé]

Excellent post. It just convinced me to use both Clomid and Nolva in my PCT.

I want to know what Pheedno's thoughts are on HCG?

Mee to!!!! Pheedno's, can you help us?

Tks a lot.

[Bolo6]

very good thread,thanks

[Physical_Specimen]

I agree with everyone's positive feedback , this is going in the archive

[dutchguru]

perfect post!!
thanks this will help me in the future a lot.

[bonds315]

Just read this post for the first time. Excellent! Cant wait to start my pct just to see how much of my gains I will keep. But i have done so much reading on HCG . Then what is the use for it? Is it even needed if you follow this protocol, using ldex, nolva, and clomid?

[LimitsAreNothing]

EVERYONE USING OR CONSIDERING USING NEEDS TO READ THIS!!! This is great FACTUAL information. Thanks Pheedno

[Jeff Almeyda]

Awesome post man!

I was wondering: Is either injectable formestane or letrozole (Femara) an acceptable substitute for l-dex in the PCT? I have both.

Author L.Rea and HMGears website say that Formestane is the best. According to them, it continually raised HPTA even when used for 22 straight weeks! Others, (e.g. Gaspari Nutrition) say that it is too anabolic and androgenic and can actually decrease HPTA when used post-cycle. Which is the real deal?

I have also heard that nolva reduces blood plasma levels of Letrozole. Would a modification of either the letro or nolva dose address that potential problem?

So which one is better for PCT?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[alexvega]

hey bro , im a new, i take a look , not read all, but , i saw the inf, it´s very important, i went to medical school i know how this is,. but not all, in practice. thanks for the inf.

[NootroidBeast]

This post has become my homepage!

Is exemestane (Aromasin ) an acceptable substitute for L-dex in the PCT?

Similar to Formestane, I've read Aromasin is the ingestable form of this injectible. So, I'm also wondering if they'll help or hurt PCT.

[dynamike]

Amazing ...detailed post Pheedno..Much of it is honestly above my comprehension...but I understand more everytime i read it...and now know when and how much to administer for my PCT...I didnt work this hard to give it all back!!!...Thanks!!..be curious to read some of your cycles...

[Dimes]

Awesome post !

[Beefkake31]

Why do some people say stop my Arimidex at week 12 ( which is when my cycle ends)? But on this sticky pheedno says use armidex days 1-30 post cycle which will be weeks 14-17 for me. Anyone?

[davinci191]

pheedno, this is what im about to run. 500mg of sust250 on day 1
then 250mg of sust every 3 days

Winny i'm going to start right away in week 1 and take 30-50mg every day and 2 weeks past the last shot of Sust250
Clomid i'm going to start 2 weeks after last sust250 shot and run 600mg on day 1 in 6 x 50mg doses and then 50mg day for 4-6 weeks....nolvadex all the way through the cycle at 20mg per day.

this will be my first real cycle do you think i still need the L-dex? and your thoughts on the way i will use the nolva and clomid.

[Blown_SC]

^^Start a new thread in the PCT forum.........

[LACBodybuilder]

An excellent and very educational post. Should be the basis for almost everyones PCT.

[Thegr8One]

sweet as usual

[buffedude]

Great post. I have been away from this Board for some time and I'm glad I'm back. Just a couple of recommendations and I'm curious about Pheedno's response.

If an aromatase inhibitor is to be used it is best to use an irreversible steroidal activator such as exemestane. Althouth there's some controversy in the literature (when isn't there any?) Arimidex is generally felt not to be friendly to the lipid profile at all. Unlike exemestane the reversible nonsteroidal imidazole-based inhibitors (such as anastrozole, letrozole ) can have detrimental effects on the lipid priofile and bone density.
Also, how about adding low dose HCG (ie 250-500IU 2-3 times a week) during the cycle to optimize responsiveness of the old gonads to the PCT?





References

Some studies favoring exemestane vs arimidex or letrozole:
Campos , Aromatase inhibitors for breast cancer in postmenopausal women. Oncologist. 2004;9(2):126-36.

Mortimer JE, Urban JH., Long-term toxicities of selective estrogen-receptor modulators and antiaromatase agents. Oncology (Huntingt). 2003 May;17(5):652-9; discussion 659, 662, 666 passim.

Some studies indicating neutral efefct of arimidex on lipid profile:
Buzdar AU, Robertson JF, Eiermann W, Nabholtz JM. An overview of the pharmacology and pharmacokinetics of the newer generation aromatase inhibitors anastrozole, letrozole, and exemestane. Cancer. 2002 Nov 1;95(9):2006-16. Cancer. 2002 Nov 1;95(9):2006-16.

Dougherty RH, Rohrer JL, Hayden D, Rubin SD, Leder BZ.Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipids and inflammatory markers of cardiovascular disease in elderly men with low testosterone levels . Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2005 Feb;62(2):228-35.

[AshtonUK]

My post cycle therapy consists of a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration; with the primary being phased out in extended protocol. With the addition of an Aromatase Inhibitor, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled(to an extent). Below you will find my suggested bare minimum, as well as a sample of an extended protocol. Extended PCT protcol is cycle length dependant so the below is not the standard for all cycles


PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

Extended protocol sample for a 12+ month cycle:
Day 1-15_ .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 16-45_.25mg L-dex + 75mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 46-65_.25mg L-dex + 20mg Nolva
Day 66-80_.25mg L-dex

Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:

1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex

Arimidex (or L-dex)
Estrogen is the main inhibitence of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum Testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding L-dex, the inhibitence of excess estrogen allows Tamox to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT, since the need to prevent binding in the mammery is lessened by the reduction in estrogen biosynthesis

Qoutes from william llewlyn's nolva vs clomid article;

Nolvadex , used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid)

Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time

The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels.

nolva vs. clomid

Does this mean that clomid causes permenant desensitization at the pituitary to GnRH? also does this mean that nolva is more efficient at bringing testosterone levels up to baseline than clomid?

[superfat73]

informative

[Latino~Heat]

even today is really good information...would like to see pheedno's post on Proviron ..
L~H

[KBZ]

Hey i was wondering, I just did my 2 weeks of clomid, so now I'm gonna continue with nolva, but I never used armidex, is it too late to incorporate it for it's anti-aromasant properties, or should I go ahead and get some?

[hurricane1]

People can laugh when they after reading my question, but is there any worthwhile over the counter anti-aromotase products? I.E. "post cycle therapy " by anabolic extreme (they came out with superdrol, so i figuire they are somewhat credible)

[jabez]

great information. you surely did some extensive research.

i was just wondering, however, when taking this mixture of chemicals; should they all be taken at the same time?

[x_moe]

great information. you surely did some extensive research.

i was just wondering, however, when taking this mixture of chemicals; should they all be taken at the same time?

it doesnt matter, they can be taken alone or together.

[NeverSummer29]

PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

Pheedno, or anyone else reading, My cycle is going consist of TEST E for a 10week cycle. I'm wondering what else you suggest running during the cycle? I figured 10mg's of Novla daily for weeks 1-10 while I run Test E would be sufficient. Any other suggestions?

And when exactly would I start my PCT? Week 12 or 13, or should I start immediatly after stopping Test?

Info would be appreciated! Thanks

[contagius]

Hey. I am Running:
Week 1-10 1.5 ml Andropen 275 and 300 mg of deca
Week 1-4 40 mg/day Dbol
Week 7-10 100 mg/day Winstrol
Week 1-10 0.5 mg/day Arimidex

I have HCG , Nolvadex , clomid and Arimidex available for PCT. I am just not sure how to run it.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thank.