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    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    Religion

    Where in the Bible does it say that people go to heaven when they die?? Just wondering if anyone can point that out.

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    somewhere towards the back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sin
    somewhere towards the back.
    LOL, yeah OT (Old Testament) doesn't mention it. It was added later by Greek gospel writers.

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    if you guys find the passage let me know

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    Revelations is in the back. Revilations talks about the final battle between good and bad and it talks about a tribulation in which the dead are resurected to be judged and it talks about satan being locked up for a thousand years before he's destroyed and it talks about 144,000 that will go into heaven to rule as kings and preists. It even talks about the earth being changed, but I haven't seen anything about people in general going to heaven, only 144,000 people and they break them down into groups of 12,000 from different tribes.

    People say that it's in there, but I haven't had anyone tell me where yet. And I haven't read it for myself either.

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    I wonder, why would people be brought back to life to be judged if they we all go to heaven when we die. Makes no sense to me.

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    Jahovas Witness claim that ya 144000 people will only go into hevean and they are predetermined b4 birth... if they are not one of those 144000 they beilve they will cease to exist in body and in soul..

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    I worked with a guy who was JW... I found him interesting to talk to about religion. I wouldn't talk to them when they knock on my door but when I was workin wed have some good debates..

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    It isn't just the Witnesses that "claim" that, it's written all over the Bible about the 144,000 people. The Bible says that the dead aren't aware of anything and have no thoughts, etc, so that can be why they say they just cease to exist. But there is supposed to be a new paradise on earth according to Revelations. Most people don't ever read all of Revelations because it scares them.

    But back to the point.......Where does it say that everyone goes to heaven? That's why Catholics and most Christians claim, but nobody has told me where it actually says it in the Bible.

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    Although there are several allusions to "going to heaven", I don't know of anywhere where it's explicitly stated.

    here is an argument against it.

    http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/heaven1.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by einstein1905
    Although there are several allusions to "going to heaven", I don't know of anywhere where it's explicitly stated.

    here is an argument against it.

    http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/heaven1.html


    good article, lots of reading though

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    Pretty good site. Those are most of the versus I was talking about.

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    only 144,000 will go to heaven, as far as being pre-determined before birth, that would be a negative. Those who lived before 1914 would be part of the 144,000 whom will reside in heaven. These are called the anointed.

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    I assume that you mean that SOME of the people that lived before 1914 are a part of the group of anointed ones and that SOME of them will go to heaven. I also assume that you are implying that Jesus took over as king in the year 1914. That can be a whole new thread in itself. Witnesses believe that Jesus took over as king of the earth in 1914, but my only real problem with that is the fact that the guy that started the witnesses back in the late 1800's thought that the end of the world (Armageddon) was going to take place in 1914 and then in 1915 decided that Jesus just took over as king in 1914.

    I didn't think it was pre-determined at birth either, but it's said that if you are one of the 144,000, you know it already, which implies some sort of pre-determination.

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    i think people are confusing 'pre-determined' with 'gods-forseeing ability'. The people who will go to heaven will go there because during their lives they accomplished what was needed to go to heaven, the reason go already knws who they are is because he knows exactly what you are going to do...now.....and now......and now too! he knows exactly what you will do all your life so he already knows who' going to heaven, but that doesnt mean he decided who is going..it means yours actions have decided for you, and its never too late to change yourself..i will...right after i finish this last beer...

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    My only problem with that is the fact that it implies we have no free will. If we have free will, nobody knows what we are going to do, not even God himself. He can have plans for us, but we don't have to follow the path we are given. Did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin when he created them? If so, why create them? Did he know that Lucifer was going to go against him when he started creating the angels? If so, why would he have created him? If there is free will in humans, how could a person know for a fact that they are going to heaven before they have lived their life and have made every decesion that they will ever need to make? How could God even know for a fact that those people will go to heaven until after their life is over and they've proved themselves worthy?

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    "We walk by faith not by sight." Really there are no guarantees as one would call it it modern terms. There is no contract with provisions etc...

    Faith is something you have or don't for what ever reasons you choose to have or not have it. God does not know who will go to heaven according to free will. That is the curve ball, what you do with your free will determines what happens. The choices you make in life make up the sum of who you are. That is a fact Biblical or not.

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    We assume that is fact. Some people assume other things are fact. It's funny how facts tend to work out to be what people "used" to believe.

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    You do have free will, everyone does, you are not following a pre detemined life that has been set or you. You do make an interesting argument when ask if god knew that adam and eve will sin, or that the devil will defy him....why did he let it happen then? Well if you believe in religeon then it comes down to the fact that god created humans to glorify him, that was the ultimate goal of creating this life, the way he set up the story with adam and eve and the devil was just gods cinamatic ability to create a plot that is fitting for the story. If you could create a world and life from scratch would you go for the simple 'pooof' they all just exsisted? or would you like to make it interesting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    You do have free will, everyone does, you are not following a pre detemined life that has been set or you. You do make an interesting argument when ask if god knew that adam and eve will sin, or that the devil will defy him....why did he let it happen then? Well if you believe in religeon then it comes down to the fact that god created humans to glorify him, that was the ultimate goal of creating this life, the way he set up the story with adam and eve and the devil was just gods cinamatic ability to create a plot that is fitting for the story. If you could create a world and life from scratch would you go for the simple 'pooof' they all just exsisted? or would you like to make it interesting?

    interesting

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    [QUOTE=DBarcelo] but my only real problem with that is the fact that the guy that started the witnesses back in the late 1800's QUOTE]


    ...and who the hell would this be. Charles Russel. you mean when Jehovahs witnesses labeled themselves "Jehovahs Witnesses"? I can gaurantee you this, no man created jehovahs witnesses.

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    ...and who the hell would this be. Charles Russel. you mean when Jehovahs witnesses labeled themselves "Jehovahs Witnesses"? I can gaurantee you this, no man created jehovahs witnesses.[/QUOTE]

    Charles Russel was a Presbeterian or something like that. Jehovahs Witnesses didn't exist before him, so they weren't some other group that existed and then decided to call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses. They weren't always called Jehovah's Witnesses, they were first called Russelites. But the point is, before Charles Russel, there were no Jehova's Witnesses, there were no Russelites. i.e. Charles Russel created the Jehovah's Witnesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    You do have free will, everyone does, you are not following a pre detemined life that has been set or you. You do make an interesting argument when ask if god knew that adam and eve will sin, or that the devil will defy him....why did he let it happen then? Well if you believe in religeon then it comes down to the fact that god created humans to glorify him, that was the ultimate goal of creating this life, the way he set up the story with adam and eve and the devil was just gods cinamatic ability to create a plot that is fitting for the story. If you could create a world and life from scratch would you go for the simple 'pooof' they all just exsisted? or would you like to make it interesting?


    What you're saying is that we are here for God's amusement, and not just to sanctify him.

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    God is dead.

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    we are in this lfe to sanctify him, but i still stick with my theory about the dramatic plot deliberatly put into the story, that is because if you do believe that god didnt see the devil turning against then you somewhat address some flaws in gods ability!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    we are in this lfe to sanctify him, but i still stick with my theory about the dramatic plot deliberatly put into the story, that is because if you do believe that god didnt see the devil turning against then you somewhat address some flaws in gods ability!

    I know God saw the devil turning against him when he saw the devil tempt Eve and when he questioned him about Job's loyalty, the thing is I don't think God knew before it happened or even before he even created satan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rambo
    God is dead.

    A lot of people think stuff like that. I hope you're just joking, because something that's eternal can't die. Something that was never born could never die. God is just sitting back and letting satan prove himself wrong. Satan said that no human will worship him, so God let satan be in control of the entire earth for a while so he can prove him wrong before he destroys him. A lot of people have a hard time with the idea that satan is the god of this world. A lot of religious people have a hard time even accepting the fact that satan is a god (even though it's written all in the Bible).

    But, God isn't dead, just biding his time until he's ready to send his son and the angels to the earth to clean things up.

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    When I said we are the sum of the decisions we make in life, take religion out of it and it is a plain fact. Decisions make our path, form our character and opinions from our experience of those decisions.

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    We kinda lost touch with the entire purpose of this thread, which was to answer the question, "Where in the Bible does it say that people go to heaven when they die?"

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    The New Testament. The Old Testament , nothing. From what I understand the Jewish believe the ashes to ashes dust to dust deal, when you're done you're done.

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    That's what a few believe, because that's what's written in the Bible. I don't know where people get the idea that when you die you either go to heaven or you go to hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBarcelo
    That's what a few believe, because that's what's written in the Bible. I don't know where people get the idea that when you die you either go to heaven or you go to hell.
    Pay homage to your King (see Paul) and your God, and you will have eternal happiness. Now what purpose could a belief like that serve?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    Pay homage to your King (see Paul) and your God, and you will have eternal happiness. Now what purpose could a belief like that serve?
    Need to be a little more specific before I can answer that.

    What chapter and verse if you can provide it, and what exactly is your question?

    It sounds like you're asking what's the sense in believing in something like that, but I'm not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBarcelo
    Need to be a little more specific before I can answer that.

    What chapter and verse if you can provide it, and what exactly is your question?

    It sounds like you're asking what's the sense in believing in something like that, but I'm not sure.
    I'm saying that religion is a political tool--promising heaven to the faithful and obedient.

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    I like to think of religeon just like i think of WMD's in Iraq!!! They both existed a long time ago! They were both seen performing live in real situations a long time ago! And they both can change your life to non-existent in 15minutes (or did Blair say 45minutes?)
    And the best thing they hav in common is that you can easily get anyone to talk and tell you they both still exsist but not one prson can show you a shred of proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC78
    I'm saying that religion is a political tool--promising heaven to the faithful and obedient.
    I asked for clarification in your question and for what exactly you were basing it on, because this may not actually be a political situation you were writing about even though it sounds like it. In some parts of the Bible, it says to respect the king because God himself used to appoint the kings over Israel and they were guided directly by God. In other parts of the Bible, the king is Jesus. After Jesus was sacrificed for our sins, he was promised by God that he would rule over the earth as king for a thousand years before turning over the kingship to God himself.

    So, because it says to honor your king doesn't make it a political thing, I just don't know exactly what you're refering to, so I can't help you understand it.

    And Catholics have always used the promise of heaven to the faithful and obedient. Christians seem to think that everyone can go to heaven if they just ask for forgiveness for their sins, no matter how much they sin or how often they keep doing the same thing over and over again. But the Bible doesn't promise heaven to anyone, it just names a set number of people from set tribes of Isreal that will go the heaven. Everyone else it promised the opportunity to live on earth (enherit the earth) forever in a paradise. But even then, just being faithful and obedient isn't enough. A person that really goes by the Bible knows that no matter how good they think they are it's really only up to Jesus and God to decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    And the best thing they hav in common is that you can easily get anyone to talk and tell you they both still exsist but not one prson can show you a shred of proof.

    Not a shred of proof of religion existing or God exisitng? There's plenty of proof of both things. You clarify which one you mean and I'll show you the proof.

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    What are WMD's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBarcelo
    Not a shred of proof of religion existing or God exisitng? There's plenty of proof of both things. You clarify which one you mean and I'll show you the proof.
    Nope no proof for God. The question in my post above was meant to be rhetorical. Religion is in large part a political institution. I'm not saying that's necessarily bad though.

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    I just thought it was a good comparison when it comes to evidence! I personally have the proof i need that god exists and it keeps me going the way i go. And by proof i dotn mean some vision in a burrito or some firework that i mistook for a miracle. I am a pretty down to earth guy and my resoning is based on a logical interpretation.

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